AA. Not the only way.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

I couldn't find the AA thread to post these links under, so I made a new one because these may be of some great value to some of you.

I've done some research and found that there are other ways.....

SOS (Save Our Selves) A non-religious approach

"SOS respects recover in any form, regardless of the path by which it is achieved. It is not opposed to or in competition with any other recovery programs. SOS supports healthy skepticism and encourages the use of the scientific method to understand alcoholism; it does not limit it's outlook to one area of knowledege or theory of addiction." -Melanie Solomon

www.secularsobriety.org


MM (Moderation Management)

"MM is a behavioral change program and a national support group network for people concerned about their drinking and who desire to make positive lifestyle changes. MM agrees with many professionals and researchers in the field that alcohol abuse, versus dependence, is a learned behavior (habit) for problem drinkers, and not a diseas." -Melanie Solomon

www.moderation.org



Despite my prior research, experience and AA's brainwashing, I've decided to give MM a try. So far I have been successful. We'll see. I'll update. Hope this helps those in need of another way.

-Amos

[Jizosh]

Isn't the fact that you are unsuccessful at moderation the whole reason for going to AA? I mean, best of luck to you, and I'm for whatever allows people to live the healthy lifestyle they desire for themselves, but my understanding has always been that addicts and moderation don't jive.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

My prior belief as well, but I wasn't drinking in moderation before, or trying to. I've always tried to abstain..hence, why I've always failed.

[Jizosh]

I see. So you just like the taste.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

LOL, very few just like the taste.

[dj cid 6.7]

Originally posted by Jizosh
Isn't the fact that you are unsuccessful at moderation the whole reason for going to AA?

The deal with these two organizations is that they are non faith based. It is impossible for athiests like Amos to attend AA and take it in the least bit seriously.
She is merely trying to inform others out there that there alternatives to AA.

[IrisSilverMoon]

why do people always shit on others attempts at different treatments besides AA? its not the ONLY thing out there and its not effective for everyone.

I like rational recovery as well, though that is abstinence based, its not religious and has people use their minds to overcome their drinking rather than a higher power.

some of the people in our Chemical dependency group were totally shocked when i said my dad hadn't found god and managed to be clean and sober. WHAT?! how can you do it without GOD???

very shocking. I look forward to an interesting group on tuesday when i discuss a book that completly shits on AA and uses CBT based therapy instead.

[Daniel_T]

Nice another thread that's gonna get completely out of hand. I cant wait to see this blow up.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Originally posted by IrisSilverMoon
why do people always shit on others attempts at different treatments besides AA? its not the ONLY thing out there and its not effective for everyone.



Here Here!!! (raises glass)

Rational recovery is a good option as well.

I'm starting to understand the psychology of addiction that I never have before
Oh, and check out these statistics....

45% of the people who attend AA meetings never return after their first meeting.

95% never return after the first year.

5% retention rate

93-97% of conventional drug rehabs and alcohol treatment centers are 12-step or AA based, so those who leave AA to look else-where, such as conventional alcohol and drug treatment for solutions, are essentionally rejoining AA!

81% attendees are gone (19% remain) after one month
90% attendees are gone (10% remain) after three months
93% attendees are gone (7% remain) after six months
and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year

That gives AA a maximum possible success rate of 5% (even if you define "success" as staying sober for only one year).

My source is AA, Not The Only Way by Melanie solomon
It's a directory basically, but very informative.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Originally posted by Daniel_T
Nice another thread that's gonna get completely out of hand. I cant wait to see this blow up.

It's a touchy but interesting subject. "Out of hand" wouldn't be the right way to describe it....maybe a "heated debate."

[biscuits]

stupid drunks

*cracks a beer*

mmmm intelligence to realize that one for the taste really is enough.

losers :D

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by °*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°


That gives AA a maximum possible success rate of 5% (even if you define "success" as staying sober for only one year).



to be fair, the success rate of AA is about the same as that of other programs, addiction is *really* hard to treat. To overcome an addiction you have to be dedicated to it. that usually sems to be the big difference between someone who is able to overcome their addiction versus someone who is not. But how are you going to care about overcoming an addiction if you hate the program you are in? you get in there and think, "well shit, i dont believe in any of this stuff" and drop out, and go back to using.

Everyone is different and because a treatment plan is popular does not mean it will work for you. i think it was very helpful of Amos to point everyone out some alternatives to AA just in case someone else is out there and in her same position of thinking that AA just isn't working for them.

We watched a movie in one of or groups last friday that showed a couple alternative ways of breaking addiction. One was a woman who created a ritual to cut down on her drug use, she didn't quit cold turkey, but cut down bit by bit and made it a lt complicated thing. The other worked with a guy to teach him how to control his heart rate and decrease triggers. It taught him to control his heart rate and breathng when faced with doing drugs and turned this stuff neutral instead of it being a big exciting trigger. very interesting.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Originally posted by biscuits
stupid drunks

*cracks a beer*

mmmm intelligence to realize that one for the taste really is enough.

losers :D

mmmm intelligence to realize when ones comment is relevant.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[gingerballs]

AA doesn't work...

[biscuits]

I thought it was perfectly relevant concidering the fact that I have been there, a fucking drunk, and realized I didn't like the feeling of getting shit faced. I like to have a beer and chill out after work. people that need a program to realize that are fucking stupid imo.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

I think that calling us all losers was the wrong way to express your oppinion. Some people have serious problems and it's a great thing if they can find a program (or anything AT ALL) that can help them.

[biscuits]

losers :D:D:D

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by biscuits
losers :D:D:D

This coming from a guy I used to punk on the school bus and someone who has been accused of trying to molest or otherwise feel up drunk girls so many times I'm counting on my neighbors toes..

You also used to talk about how everyone in your family including you would sit around and smoke crack.

Not to mention that time you brused that girl the fuck up because she didn't want to make out with you and you kept trying to force yourself on her.

You should just go back to not posting.

Shouldn't call others losers when you are such a fucking bottom feeder.

[gingerballs]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/Zero5/lol.jpg

Look its Devin and his rapist robot friend.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Oh...no he didn't!!!! OMFG!

[gingerballs]

I'll take "the-rapist" for 500...

[burnt]

ham?

[gingerballs]

Shhh your mouth on this one...

[burnt]

sorry...






I've been drinking.

[gingerballs]

Its ok friend.

[FREEEZZ]

It really is hard to take AA with a grain of salt when everyone gets up on the ol' soap box and starts bringing the plastic jesus to the table. I think everyone that feels they need treatment or has had their life interveined on require something different than joe shmoe's self diary to help. I'll never quit drinking but I do use more care in the amount I consume nowa days.

[***DRUKORE***]

Originally posted by Zero5
AA doesn't work...

For you? For Bob? For who?

My former sponser. Sober for 6 years now. So it works for one person.
Therefor negating your post.
AA works. If you choose it to be your system for recover. It just isn't for everyone.

And btw, your comment? You're a moron. Next time provide facts why isn't doesn't.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

It is true, AA works for some people. And that's a good thing. Unfortunately, there are some of us that it doesn't work for. Hopefully some of the programs mentioned will work for those people.

[littlelimelight]

Yay for alternatives! Thanks for the info Amy, I'm going to let my brother know.

[electrokid]

i've had to go to aa meetings twice now due to duiis. the state of oregon gives you very little choice. you must attend a treatment program. since i was at the meetings against my will, they held zero value. you can't force someone to "see the light" as the state trys to do with their bullshit sanctions. it is practically mixing church and state.

the very fact that i was there against my will made me wonder who else in the room was as well. now if i were actively seeking help from my peers i'd want said peers to be there willingly in order to enhance my experience. instead, there i was along with countless others that were basically just there for the show.

anyway...

if the state requires people to attend a treatment program, they should be given the option to choose one that is not based on religion. i was never made aware of that option. good work °*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°

[Kosmicdog]

Originally posted by electrokid

the very fact that i was there against my will made me wonder who else in the room was as well. now if i were actively seeking help from my peers i'd want said peers to be there willingly in order to enhance my experience. instead, there i was along with countless others that were basically just there for the show.

Just wait until the meeting ends. 80% of the people there have to go get whoever is chairing the meeting to sign their slip of paper.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by ***DRUKORE***
Next time provide facts why isn't doesn't.

You seem to have a hard time even typing a discernible post, so who are you to call me a moron?

It works for less then 5% of people. I would consider that 5% a fluke.... IMO it is not effective and ends up helping a lot of people find new enablers...

Thanks and go to hell..

[flumP]

way to go amy! youve really got a great head on your shoulders. you have made some really great choices and handled situations very well. coming to terms with addiction is really tuff and doesnt usually happen till its way to late. you go girl!
i have had to deal with addiction in the last couple years and really wish i had found these links sooner. i couldnt get past step two with AA, all that god stuff just made me think i was in a room with a buncha morons. i am clean from the drug of my vice for over six months now, no thanks to the AA program.
if a guy like me with no support can do it, a woman like you with a loving husband and some great kids can do whatever you set your heart on.
thanks for the links

ps all this name calling and whos a loser stuff... you have some really hard times commin. keep drinkin for the taste, some people think crack tastes good. its gonna be pretty shitty when you find yourself at the bottom callin people who can help you losers.

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by electrokid


if the state requires people to attend a treatment program, they should be given the option to choose one that is not based on religion. i was never made aware of that option. good work °*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°

I don't know about Oregon, but i know in washington if you can find an alternate type of legitimate treatment program to be in and attend meetings for the courts will usually let you do it. part of the problem is that AA is so popular and easy to get to alteratives aren't always readily apparent.

Originally posted by Zero5
It works for less then 5% of people. I would consider that 5% a fluke.... IMO it is not effective and ends up helping a lot of people find new enablers...



you are forgiven for missing my post about how AA's success rates are about the same as ANY treatment program. You have to be dedicated to getting help and find a good program for you as well. The numbers i've heard have been more in te 12% range, they are all across the board though because its an anonymous program and hard to conduct research within it.

I despise AA as a treatment option, but i will recommend it as an option to anyone who wants to get clean because it's no more or less effective than anything else. its just one on a big list of possibilities, i would encourage anyone to try a few things out to find which one they like best.

[Headphones Dude]

Sorry to hear this news Amy. I always enjoyed a drink or 2 around you at Scott's house. I don't drink very much myself, unless of course, the drinks are all free. Then I get to the point where I can't keep track of how many I had. I'm sure you've basicly done my lifestyle more weekends than you can count, and it's time to ask for some help. And if that's what you need, may you find it. Should we cross paths again, I hope you're doing better by being sober....

[DJ Nikon]

I've been going to AA/NA meetings with friends who were in trouble with the law for years as a support buddy

Honestly, those who say "quiters! losers! dorks! IT DOESNT WORK" are usually using so heavy they dont really realize they have a problem and most dont because they are currently in use and have clouded judgement.

Alcohol is a drug as well, dont be in denial about it. Even I was for a long time and still kinda dont think of it as such, but it is a fact.

1 shot = 1 beer = 1 bowl

its all the same no matter how ya look at it
sobriety is becomming less popular due to people not being satisfied with whats going on in their daily lives.

To tell you the truth, I started going to meetings out here for THE HELL OF IT mostly because I didnt wanna meet a bunch of fucked up meth addict crack/tweak fiends for new friends. And the people I have meet in NA/AA are I honestly think, the cooler people out here and most DEFINETLY the most sane. I have no reason to go cept the fellowship of being amoungest a group of people trying to better their lives. Not EVERYONE in AA/NA is trying to be sober, but moreso keep their asses outta jail. I understand that and its their personal choice to do so. Some even have the nerve to come to meetings smelling like booze and ask to get their papers signed. Thats their choice.

To those who say NA/AA is for quiters/losers, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are really happy with your life at the moment. COULD you go a year without touching booze/drugs?

[tr0llaccount]

Originally posted by flumP
blah blah blah

i was in a room with a buncha morons.

blah blah blah

ps all this name calling and whos a loser stuff... you have some really hard times commin. keep drinkin for the taste, some people think crack tastes good. its gonna be pretty shitty when you find yourself at the bottom callin people who can help you losers.

Best post in this thread, or at least the most honest...

[burnt]

To those who say NA/AA is for quiters/losers, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are really happy with your life at the moment. COULD you go a year without touching booze/drugs?

I could not. in all honesty. I drink 2-4 beers every evening, and quite a bit more on weekends.

there's a lot of shit that I'm really down about, with my life, and my history. I don't blame anybody, and I'm proud to call myself a survivor and not a victim.

but I'm looking at the economics of the whole thing.

I could:
- quit drinking, entirely
- face some serious demons I prefer not to face
- have some kind of collapse
- check myself in to a therapist
- begin paying several hundred dollars per week for therapy
- realize I'm even more depressed now that I'm more aware
- start taking antidepressant drugs
- continue taking these drugs and spend another several hundred dollars per month
- eventually get fired or quit because I can't hack the rat race anymore, and/or the Patriot Act avails itself to corporate types and my boss finds out I'm a pill popping crazy person.

or! =)

I could continue:
- spending about $6-10 every couple of days on a six pack
- medicating myself, in the privacy of my own home, saving money
- make sure I avoid liquor because alcoholism runs in my family
- kick it at the pub with all my alcoholic corporate co-workers and keep getting promotions
- die many years from now, a happy, content old man, surrounded by friends who will probably crack jokes about what a beer snob I was.


****
the answer's pretty obvious to me.

[littlelimelight]

^^ Well that's pretty sad. But at least you're honest.

[tr0llaccount]

Originally posted by burnt
I could not. in all honesty. I drink 2-4 beers every evening, and quite a bit more on weekends.

there's a lot of shit that I'm really down about, with my life, and my history. I don't blame anybody, and I'm proud to call myself a survivor and not a victim.

but I'm looking at the economics of the whole thing.

I could:
- quit drinking, entirely
- face some serious demons I prefer not to face
- have some kind of collapse
- check myself in to a therapist
- begin paying several hundred dollars per week for therapy
- realize I'm even more depressed now that I'm more aware
- start taking antidepressant drugs
- continue taking these drugs and spend another several hundred dollars per month
- eventually get fired or quit because I can't hack the rat race anymore, and/or the Patriot Act avails itself to corporate types and my boss finds out I'm a pill popping crazy person.

or! =)

I could continue:
- spending about $6-10 every couple of days on a six pack
- medicating myself, in the privacy of my own home, saving money
- make sure I avoid liquor because alcoholism runs in my family
- kick it at the pub with all my alcoholic corporate co-workers and keep getting promotions
- die many years from now, a happy, content old man, surrounded by friends who will probably crack jokes about what a beer snob I was.


****
the answer's pretty obvious to me.

this post leaves the impression that you seem to think that there is only one possible outcome for either choice.

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by burnt
I could not. in all honesty. I drink 2-4 beers every evening, and quite a bit more on weekends.

there's a lot of shit that I'm really down about, with my life, and my history. I don't blame anybody, and I'm proud to call myself a survivor and not a victim.

but I'm looking at the economics of the whole thing.

I could:
- quit drinking, entirely
- face some serious demons I prefer not to face
- have some kind of collapse
- check myself in to a therapist
- begin paying several hundred dollars per week for therapy
- realize I'm even more depressed now that I'm more aware
- start taking antidepressant drugs
- continue taking these drugs and spend another several hundred dollars per month
- eventually get fired or quit because I can't hack the rat race anymore, and/or the Patriot Act avails itself to corporate types and my boss finds out I'm a pill popping crazy person.

or! =)

I could continue:
- spending about $6-10 every couple of days on a six pack
- medicating myself, in the privacy of my own home, saving money
- make sure I avoid liquor because alcoholism runs in my family
- kick it at the pub with all my alcoholic corporate co-workers and keep getting promotions
- die many years from now, a happy, content old man, surrounded by friends who will probably crack jokes about what a beer snob I was.


****
the answer's pretty obvious to me.


FUCKING HILARIOUS!

you forgot to add that continued drinking can lead t cirrhosis of the liver, depletion of the stomach lining and the inability to absorb nutrients you need to survive, which leads to anterograde and retrograde amnesia.

you'll have to face those demons one day, don't think continued drinking is a good way to deal with it either.

But i understand how scary having to face that stuff is and you arne't there yet, its fine. Not everyone is ready or willing to quit, i just hope you get the courage to one day face those demons.

[burnt]

half a sixer a night does all that?

my grandpa used to wake up and drink a bottle of scotch and 7-up. then alka seltzer. then more scotch.

that guy had the nasty ass farts. and used to violently cough up little chunks o vomit throughout the day.

I don't think the Widmer brothers have all them problems. I know none of my homies at the Terminal Gravity brewpub have them problems.

sorry to burst your bubbles, but - I've been on the receiving end of the absolute worst that psychiatry and misdiagnosed conditions and forcing someone to eat medications that have only been tested on the general public, can wreak on a human body, and human soul. well, actually my little kid was. so you'll pardon me if I roll my eyes.

fermented hops have been around helping mediocre men run farms and win wars since the days of Atilla the Hun.

Ritalin and Zyloft have been around since, what, last Thursday?

I'll take my chances with this Corona I'm knocking back with my dinner, thank you all the same. =)

[IrisSilverMoon]

i'm in psychology, not psychiatry.

and yes, i would be very wary of psychiatrists and doctors if i were you or anyone.

[Kosmicdog]

Originally posted by burnt
half a sixer a night does all that?

Agreed. Im sick of hearing about the extreme. According to the anti whatever zealots I should be completely out of my mind insane, homeless, jobless, on welfare, toothless, prostituting myself, and tending to my ulcers and cancerated colon.

Pointing out the worst case scenario is stupid for lots of reasons, of which I will discuss two.

1. You can't relate to the worst case scenario. Those fake kids in afterschool specials and public service announcements are all douches.

2. The distrust. I knew that they were all lying to me when they said acid makes you go crazy, so I figured smoking crack wouldn't give me a heart attack. If acid had made me go crazy, I totally wouldn't have smoked crack. Which by the way, only made me stay up late and get fidgety. I didn't go on a shooting rampage or have any crack babies.

Drinking a two or three beers every night, and a couple more on the weekend may make you fat, but it's not going to kill you.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Originally posted by Kosmicdog


Drinking a two or three beers every night, and a couple more on the weekend may make you fat, but it's not going to kill you.

Yeah, not any more than anything else would.

[electrokid]

Originally posted by Kosmicdog
Just wait until the meeting ends. 80% of the people there have to go get whoever is chairing the meeting to sign their slip of paper.

yeah that was my favorite part =/

[burnt]

dude, isn't that like - counter to everything A.A. is all about?

"Hi, my name is Jed B., and I'm an alcoholic."

"Hi Jed...."


two hours later, you get a fucking notarized stamp that "Jed Black was here" at the A.A. meeting.

well, there goes your anonymity! =)

fucking retarded.... jesus, our bureaucracy is fucking retarded sometimes.

[IrisSilverMoon]

YOU don't have to be anonymous about your AA meeting, but you have to keep others anonymous and not say who is at your meetings.

if its court ordered AA (which is the only reason you need a signature) then they already know you are going anyway and its completely moot point, they just want proof that you went. They also aren't supposed to tell anyone else that you are going. the people in our groups that go to AA tell us of their own free will, they are not required to let us know that they are going.

I discussed alternatives to the AA philosophy in my group today...:) it was a huge group and a lot of really good discussion. I was pleased they listened and had good input.

and as for your laughing about my warnings about alcohol, please, continued to do so. Ask Dru to tell you some horror stories, or there was one woman in group today who told us about a woman in her AA group wh only had a few months to live, alcohol had destroyed her insides. Karsakofs and wernicke's are not fake diseases, they happen, they may not happen to everyone, but if you drink a six pack a day and more on weekends, then is something to consider. I am not a DARE officer, i can back up any of my claims with resources if you like.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Well yeah, actually. Half a six pack a day must be all it takes for significant liver damage. Have you guys ever read the back of a bottle of anything containing acetaminophen?

ALCOHOL WARNING: If you consume 3 or more alcoholic drinks every day, ask your doctor wether you should take acetaminophen or other pain relievers/fever reducers. Acetaminophen may cause liver damage.

Meaning that....3 or more beers a day will be causing liver damage as well. So mix the two, and you could get screwed.

Just a thought.

[Kosmicdog]

Originally posted by °*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°
Meaning that....3 or more beers a day will be causing liver damage as well.

uhhh, that doesn't mean that at all.

[burnt]

plus, I don't eat pills. I don't even eat vitamins. I mean, I rarely even eat aspirin. Hell, I rarely take medicine when I get a cold, I prefer to drink tea and eat chicken soup.

yea, I drink quite a bit, sure, but I never eat fast food, I don't pop pills, and I try to stay in pretty good shape. plus, I only drink beer. I mean, like, maaaaybe once a year I'll have like *one* cocktail. Can't friggin stand the taste of wine.

I dunno, I think I'll be ok. I guess that was my whole point. yea, I drink every day, but you know what? so did Churchill. he still kept his shit together.

its not necessarily a problem just because someone in our nanny state wrote an article in Reader's Digest asserting that everybody who drinks every day has a serious problem.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Originally posted by Kosmicdog
uhhh, that doesn't mean that at all.

Please explain.

If there wasn't a danger then there wouldn't be a need for that lable. Regular alcohol consumption damages the liver, and so does acetaminophen. Therefor, acetaminophen should only be consumed if you hava a healthy liver. 3 or more beers a day...obviously means your liver isn't quite so healthy. I don't know how this could mean anything different.

[Roddimus]

Originally posted by °*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°
Please explain.

it means 3 beers a day is only dangerous if you're taking acetaminophen, not on their own.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Drinking 3 beers a day, every day. And more on the weekends is going to catch up to you eventually. But probably no more than smoking, eating shitty food, and Insomnia will though.

[Kosmicdog]

Im sitting in my cubicle right now, drinking a Fat Tire provided to me by my work.

I love my job.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Do you work for Microsoft?

[Kosmicdog]

http://myspace-852.vo.llnwd.net/01310/25/86/1310986852_l.jpg

check the label on the mug ;)

[burnt]

you lucky bastard. =)


I used to work for a network company, an ISP in a very expensive little niche. Every Friday, the CEO/Owner would ring this big fuckin bell at 4pm, and it was mandatory, like *MANDATORY* that everyone stop what they were doing, line up in the big network center and drink 2 or 3 bottles of expensive beer and/or wine, and eat some yummy hors'd'ouvres, while he bragged about that week's sales or finance figures.

not a bad gig. but I make more where I'm at now.

hey, maybe I'll see you at Ash St tonight again.

[°*.¤:ÅMÖ§:¤.*°]

Nice!!

[xshank667x]

More people need this thread I'm sure.

[.-=PSYLON=-.]

Originally posted by xshank667x
More people need this thread I'm sure.

No, they just need the disciprin.

and disciprin...come from wiffin.

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/South_Park/Images/Stan-marsh-2.jpg

(sorry, I couldn't resist) :D