Holy crap!!! Russia and Georgia going to war?!?!?

[djsteel]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4486208.ece

So while everybody was watching 2 men painted in silver lift each other at the Olympic openning...Russia was rolling tanks into Tiblisi...

Holy Crap!
*This* is big...

"One hundred and fifty Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles have entered South Ossetia," President Saakashvili of Georgia told reporters in Tbilisi. "This is a clear intrusion on another country’s territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight."

"Russia sent troops and dozens of tanks and armoured vehicles into the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia today, vowing to protect its citizens in a move described by Tbilisi's pro-Western Government as an act of war. "

"A South Ossetian rebel minister said that more than 1,000 people had been killed in overnight shelling of the city of Tskhinvali, the separatist capital which Georgia claimed today to have captured. :

[HexRei]

Yep, I heard about this too. kuhrazy!

[pretylc]

That is nuts. I am glad I don't live over there.

[sentravq]

This has been festering for the better part of the last five years ever since the "Rose Revolution" brought a pro-Western government to power.

[djsteel]

News reports begin rolling in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz4m7IFXyPE
Check out how many Russian tanks are just rolling in!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reuhlteq0VM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZTcrrmLhcY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqfh8CEf0cg&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkeCvQ47bDY&feature=related

[djsence]

by Jeffrey Stinson, USA TODAY

LONDON — Fighting broke out Friday between Russia and a strong U.S. ally in the region, the Democratic Republic of Georgia. The violence could significantly destabilize Russia's ties with the West — and even influence the actions of U.S. troops in Iraq. USA TODAY's London correspondent, Jeffrey Stinson, answers some questions about the conflict.
Q. What are Georgia and Russia fighting over?

A: Georgia launched a military strike on the province of South Ossetia, aiming to reclaim it after 16 years of semi-independence. In response, Russia sent tanks in. Moscow says Georgian forces had killed Russian peacekeepers there and were committing acts of "ethnic cleansing" of native Russians living there.

Q: Why does Moscow care what Georgia does in its own provinces?

A: Georgia, which borders Russia, is a former Soviet republic. It declared its independence in 1991 after the collapse of communism. Many of the 70,000 people in South Ossetia speak Russian and carry Russian passports. Relations between the two have been tense, as Moscow tries to reassert influence over nations that border it. Georgia has aligned itself with the West and wants to join NATO — a desire the Bush administration supports.

Q: Why is this happening now?

A: Georgia insists it had no choice but to act after what it says are increasing attacks from separatists. Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili claims Moscow took advantage of situation to "invade" his country while the world's attention was focused on the Olympics in Beijing.

Q: How bad could hostilities get?

A: It depends on how large a response Russia wants to muster. Russia has an active and equipped armed force of 1.02 million, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies of London. The institute numbers Georgia's active servicemen and women at 21,150.

Q: How have the United States and the rest of the world reacted?

A: The United States, NATO and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe have called for a halt in hostilities and for Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia to sit down and talk. The U.S. State Department says it supports Georgia's territorial integrity, while calling for an immediate cease-fire. The White House says President Bush and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin have talked about the situation while both are attending the Olympics.

Q: Is there a chance that the United States and the West could be drawn into a confrontation with Russia over this?

A: Georgia is not a member of NATO, so there are no obligations to come to its defense. Georgia so far has asked for diplomatic, not military, assistance from the West. The Pentagon says it has only 125 defense personnel and contractors in Georgia that provide military training for Georgian forces deployed in Iraq.

Q: Could hostilities here affect U.S. military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan?

A: Georgia's president said Friday he is bringing home the 2,000 troops it had stationed in Iraq. That is a significant blow to coalition forces because Georgia was the third-largest contributor of troops behind Britain and the U.S. Apart from that, direct U.S. military involvement seems unlikely. Although Georgia may look close to Iraq and Afghanistan, it has little in common. Like Russians, Georgians and Ossetians are largely Orthodox Christian.

[sentravq]

GEORGIA LETTER: President Saakashvili's ex-ally may yet become the most dangerous thorn in his side, writes Dan McLaughlin


Five years on, the Rose Revolution team is no more: Zhvania is dead, poisoned by a gas leak; Saakashvili is a less bouncy, more bruised president; and Burjanadze has just parted ways with her old ally after a long period of discontent.

A defining moment, it seems, was Saakashvili's decision reached last November to use riot troops to disperse thousands of protesters who accused him of promoting his friends while crushing his opponents, and failing to raise living standards and fight graft.

Unease among Saakashvili's supporters in Washington and the European Union grew when police raided and temporarily closed an opposition television station, and he ultimately agreed to hold early presidential and parliamentary elections.

He and his allies won both quite comfortably, but his image as a champion of western-style democracy in a volatile part of Russia's backyard was tarnished.

The fractious opposition could not find a leader capable of really challenging Saakashvili.

But now Georgians, who are tired of waiting for their lives to improve, are wondering whether the woman who was his strongest partner is poised to become his most dangerous adversary.

"I had some differences of views with the former team. And I thought it was right that we moved in different directions," Burjanadze said in the leafy conservatory of her Tbilisi home.

"We share the same strategic priorities . . . but we differ on tactical points. I saw that I was not strong enough inside the system to do what I thought was right. So I left."

Burjanadze, who is married with two sons, has created the Foundation For Democracy and Development to help strengthen Georgian civil society and move towards the nation's commonly-held priorities - accession to Nato and the EU, and restoration of Tbilisi's control over two Russian-backed separatist regions, Abkhazia and North Ossetia.

She finally split with Saakashvili after a dispute over which candidates to put forward for the elections in May.

But her calls for a "broader section" of decision-makers, for government to become "more transparent and closer to the people", and for an end to "revolutionary methods of ruling" sound like indictments of Saakashvili's alleged reliance on a small clique of trusted advisers and his penchant for bold, but sometimes heavy-handed, moves.

"I was saying this openly . . . and the president and others often said I was right. But I wanted real change. Perhaps now it will come, and they will do what I asked."

Burjanadze insists that her "political divorce" from Saakashvili "was quite civilised", but she holds no qualms about the prospect of challenging him for power at a later date.

"I think I will be back in active politics in the near future . . . I would create my own party, but will co-operate with others.

"But for now my political ambitions and party can wait until my foundation is fully established."

If Nino does challenge Misha, as the former allies are universally known in Georgia, then she is likely to be Saakashvili's toughest opponent.

Georgi the singing cabman, and millions of his compatriots, can only hope that a battle between the heroes of the Rose Revolution finally prompts it to bear belated fruit.

© 2008 The Irish Times

[burnt]

hahaha...

so Putin's army is busy and Bush is very concerned about the developments.... but at least that didn't stop em from being chummy at the olympics

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/djburnt/bush-putin-olympics.jpg

[B_tech]

Anyone else feel Georgia fighting Russia is like an ant trying to wage war against a moving car?

[djsteel]

I think you got it backwards.

It is Russia invading Georgia, which is the equivalent of a moving car running over a pedestrian in the crosswalk.

[Amberella]

Somebody on my horse board posted this - check out the map in the lower left corner.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA

[mercuria]

Originally posted by djsteel
News reports begin rolling in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz4m7IFXyPE
Check out how many Russian tanks are just rolling in!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reuhlteq0VM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZTcrrmLhcY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqfh8CEf0cg&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkeCvQ47bDY&feature=related
dear, those are GEORGIAN TANKS ROLLING INTO SOUTH OSSETIA.
and that's my friend reporting from what turns out to be a war zone. because Saakashvili wants to get South Ossetia done and over with by December, so he can get into NATO.

and that footage of the supposed "russian jet attack" is from April of this year.

[mercuria]

Originally posted by djsteel
I think you got it backwards.

It is Russia invading Georgia, which is the equivalent of a moving car running over a pedestrian in the crosswalk.
it's Georgia trying to annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
both of which want independence. but Abkhazia can exist on its own, without the protectorate of Russia or Georgia. S.Ossetia can't. so Saakashvili went for the lamb.

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by mercuria
it's Georgia trying to annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia.


How can Georgia annex S.Ossetia, when it's already part of its territory?

[mercuria]

oh, let's say, like Spain considers the Basque country its integral part. But the Basques seem to think otherwise.

[mercuria]

so, i watched SKY, CNN, BBC.
read the Times, NYT, the Guardian.
it's amazing, really, what media can do.

they showed pictures of Tskhinvali, the ossetian capital, under georgian fire.
but said it was the georgian capital, assaulted by Russians.

they said Russian tanks rolled into Georgia, while the world was watching the opening of the Olympics in Beijing. while Georgian shelling of Tskhinvali started 5 minutes to midnight on 080808.

CNN reported that Russian tanks rolled into Tbilisi. meanwhile, Georgian channels showed a peaceful protest outside of the Russian embassy.

basically, 90 per cent of what the Western media shows and writes is a lie. blatant, purposeful lie.

saying this from the POV of a person, who gets the information from people who ARE in Ossetia right now.

[meeotch]

^^^So then what the hell is going on, because I've been reading all of this, and with all the Slavic/Georgian names, I can't get a grasp on which regions are legally parts of which countries and who is doing what.

[mercuria]

i'd strongly suggest watching either Al Jazeera English (it's not an islamic channel, by any means. in fact, it's one of the most objective and interesting channels out there).
or RT.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28732

in a nutshell.
NOrth Ossetia is Russian.
South Ossetia is somewhat Georgian.
South Ossetians have been given a choice of exchanging their passports for Russian passports, 80 per cent (roughly) did so.
North Ossetia and South Ossetia want to unite. if not to form an independent state, then a somewhat independent within Russian Federation.
Georgia says Ossetia is Georgian.
Tbiliisi -- capital of Georgia
Tskhinvali - capital of South Ossetia
Moscow -- capital of Russian Federation

[burnt]

well Mitch, long story short is Putin is rebuilding the Soviet Empire now that the US is too pre-occupied fighting the "islamofascist threat" to fight the "communist threat".

I don't think Putin wants to re-establish a communist empire. I do however think he wants an empire. so he's taking advantage of a skirmish between his southern border and the nation bordering it.

[mercuria]

it has nothing to do with "Putin's empire", Eric.
it has everything to with Saakashvili's desire to enter NATO. by december, he has to sort out both of the breakaway republics. Russia does NOT benefit from this war.
but you can believe what you want to believe. just like i believe this war is profitable for the US because they have been supplying Georgia with military equipment, ammo, etc.

[burnt]

true. it is profitable for the US - plus it distracts Putin. I think both parties benefit though.

see above pic of the leaders of both parties chilling and enjoying each others' company while air and ground space were being violated.

I still think Putin's got some grander plans for re-consolidation though. not that its a bad thing or a good thing. I think it has very little to do with "humanitarian" efforts, and horrible mistreatment of Georgia's various ethnicities.

they are a conduit for oil. they have a huge pipeline with plans to expand. but production has slowed because of ethnic infighting.

funny how various global powers are willing to step up and "save" the poor citizens of oil-focused countries... I bet if some warlord in Sudan or Darfur stumbled across oil and started trying to sell it, we'd have all kinds of tanks in there killing civilians pretending to save them. ;)

[meeotch]

Originally posted by burnt
I bet if some warlord in Sudan or Darfur stumbled across oil and started trying to sell it, we'd have all kinds of tanks in there killing civilians pretending to save them. ;)

Isn't Sudan somehow all ready involved in oil, though? I thought that was the major reason behind China's turning the other way over their atrocities (because they have major import contracts from Sudan) and why, for instance, China revoked that one American's visa over protesting Sudan's actions.

[mercuria]

Originally posted by burnt

I still think Putin's got some grander plans for re-consolidation though. not that its a bad thing or a good thing. I think it has very little to do with "humanitarian" efforts, and horrible mistreatment of Georgia's various ethnicities.

Russia's enormous as it is. there is nothing to re-consolidate.
The Baltic states were always more of a nuisance. they were important in the 17th century, when access to the Sea was greatly needed, but are certainly not so vital in the XI century.

quo prodis?
The Former Georgian Foreign Minister Salome Zurabishvili says the United States could be partly responsible for the violence in South Ossetia.

In an interview with the France-Presse news agency she commented on the possible reasons behind the military conflict.

"There are many Americans in Georgia training the military forces of the country and monitoring the situation. As I understand, they also supervise the strategic corridor – the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.

The main purpose behind the conflict is the further strategic orientation of Georgia and an opportunity for the West, I mean the USA and the EU, to count on Georgia and the Caucasus in ensuring the strategic provision of oil".

and yet, i believe no one is more responsible for the bloodshed than Misha Saakashvili. who staunchly believes American taxpayers' money should be spent on Georgia. too bad the US already has a state with that name.

[burnt]

yes, but it puts him closer to his friends in Iran.

http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/georgia/images/georgia_map.jpg

the next neighbor south, is the former Soviet nation of Armenia, who are super good friends with Russia.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/47-885.aspx

the next neighbor south is ... , well, Iran. and at that point he's on the front lines of the impending US/Iran war. even if he doesn't take over Armenia, it puts him into a position where he can pretty easily battle the US by proxy through Iran.

***
sorry but - not to degrade the honor of being a soldier, but.. I've never believed that generals give orders to enter/attack, solely out of "goodwill".

never. historically,... never. there's *always* an economic and/or geopolitical strategically ulterior motive for a first strike.

politicians give orders to generals, and there are simply no highly ethical, highly powerful politicians. the system of politics is designed to weed out the "nice guys".

so the "we just want to stop the senseless killing we heard was going on" reasons that Russia is offering just doesn't pass the smell test. =\

[mercuria]

i'm sorry, but this conspiracy theory of Putin taking over Armenia and going to war with the US is laughable, to say the least.

[burnt]

no more laughable than the silly excuse that Putin is "liberating" Georgia, or the US is "liberating" Iraq.

no more laughable than Iran going to war with the US by proxy... or with Israel by proxy via Hezbollah.

no more laughable than post-Glasnost, democratic, peaceful Russia surpassing the United States in arms deals, by supplying some of America's biggest problem children, in spite of a post-9/11 global economy.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11869/russiairan_arms_trade.html

Iran is shaping up to be the next big hot spot in the middle east, and its certainly not in Russia's best interests to concede their relations (and gigantic quid pro quo arms/oil business) with Iran, over to US/Israeli/Western interests. soo... look at the map. skinny little Georgia gets occupied by Russians. next is Armenia, they're homies anyway - bada bing, bada boom - one straight, easy line capable of legally moving anything you want to from Russia right up to Iran's northern border.

**
so but ok - thats my opinion on the matter. I think Putin is making some strategic positioning quickly while the world's attention is diverted to the olympics and lame-duck Bush doesn't have enough clout (or troops) to make any demands of Russia anyway.

I think Bush is going to come home from his summer vacation to an unpleasant surprise - that the impending war with Iran he was hoping to give to McCain, is suddenly a lot less likely. I think Putin is positioning himself to serve my country with a much-needed mug of Sit The Fuck Back Down.

we're already up to our neck in debt and our troops are overstretched and overcommitted. no way could we attack Iran and re-allocate their oil, with big, scary, well-armed and very rich Russia right on Iran's northern border.

but thats just me, and you live over there. so whats your opinion? but only, your *real* opinion? why would Putin go to the bother and expense of sending troops into a sovereign neighbor, other than to let a few Osettians exchange their passports?

[budaho]

Originally posted by burnt
never. historically,... never. there's *always* an economic and/or geopolitical strategically ulterior motive for a first strike.


i think a part of what mercuria was trying to say though was that it wasn't russia's first strike. from my understanding georgian military forces (maybe with us pmc support and logistics) have been deployed in ossetia trying to fight a probably russian supported resistance. when the fighting intensified last week georgia started shelling ethnically russian neighborhoods where it was encountering resistance. russia invaded ossetia in response to the indiscriminate violence against the ethnically russian people there. i have to agree with just about everything mercuria has been saying. especially about how biased and misleading the coverage of just about every western media outlet has been. i do think burnt is right in that russia's motives are not solely humanitarian assistance, but i don't think the motives are quite what you describe, not primarily at least.

i think russia's primary interest is in trying to keep georgia out of nato. this would be really bad for russia for many reasons. for one it would then have a nato member on its southern border. also, there are vast and unclaimed oil reserves under the black sea, but there have been negotiations going on to determine how rights to it will be distributed among the countries that border it. on its own geogia doesn't have much power in these negotiations but as a member of nato it would be in a much better position. the bigger geogiia's cut the smaller russia's, so russia wants to prevent this.

besides keeping georgia out of nato, i think russia probably supports the resistance in ossetia, and likes seeing it disrupt the flow of oil to the mediterranean and europe. disruptions in this route means europe will have to rely more on oil provided by russia. keeping the resistance from being crushed is probably important financially because of this. it also keeps its hopes of a separate ossetia and a russian stake in the btc pipeline alive.

economics lies at the root of this conflict. wanting to protecting ethinc russians is real factor though, its an action strongly supported by most russian citizens, and its why most russian citizens support the action. there are certain other influences on russia's decision, but this doesn't make the initial actions of georgia's military any less despicable.

what disturbs me the most though is the possibility of nato encouraging and supporting what legitimately could be called ethnic cleansing by georgian forces. i've no idea how much support we've given but if we've admitted to training their forces, i'd be shocked if there isn't much more we haven't admitted to. the very uniform propoganda campaign accompanying it is its own kind of support as well, and it also hints at deeper involvement. nato certainly has a stake in the matter. geopolitically and strategically georgia would be a very worthwhile addition to the alliance. however, nato doesn't like admitting countries whose governments are unstable and who have ongoing insurgencies. i think its highly likely that nato made putting down the resistance in ossetia a precondition to acceptance. i think that having fought in iraq, many of the experienced georgian forces, along with their US trainers, applied the lesson of the successful US Iraq surge (read the ethnic cleansing of bagdhad) to the problem of reducing the violence and putting down their own georgian insurgency.

[burnt]

that makes a lot of sense budaho.

honestly it looks to me like ethnic cleansing has gotten a humanitarian upgrade in the sketchier European sections of the globe. people aren't killing the racial and cultural sub-sects they hate - they're just keeping them from getting hosues, jobs, medical care - and it looks like NATO's been looking the other way in those cases.

Irina I just re-read what I wrote and hope I didn't come across as offensive. I'm enjoying talking about this and have a lot of respect for you.

I'm also not surprised that Western (particularly US) media is over-hyping Russia's actions. the powers-that-be disapprove of Russia taking a "I'm not scared of the US" stance, and, well.... our media does pretty suck donkey bawlz these days.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by mercuria
it has nothing to do with "Putin's empire", Eric.
it has everything to with Saakashvili's desire to enter NATO. by december, he has to sort out both of the breakaway republics. Russia does NOT benefit from this war.
but you can believe what you want to believe. just like i believe this war is profitable for the US because they have been supplying Georgia with military equipment, ammo, etc.

I hope Putin completely destroys Georgia's infrastructure.

This should be a lesson to the world what happens when you attack an innocent sovereign country.

Georgia (with it's set of clip on US and israeli ballz) thought it would invade South Ossetia and murder the Russian peace keepers stationed there. Now they are getting their collective asses kicked.

Here is the report from the Georgian zionist stooge getting his clock cleaned..

Jewish Georgian official: Our army has IDF training to thank
By Haaretz Service
Tags: Georgia, Russia, Jewish World

Jewish Georgian Minister Temur Yakobshvili on Sunday praised the Israel Defense Forces for its role in training Georgian troops and said Israel should be proud of its military might, in an interview with Army Radio.

"Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers," Yakobashvili told Army Radio in Hebrew, referring to a private Israeli group Georgia had hired.

Yakobashvili, Georgia's minister of reintegration, added that this training provided Georgia with the know-how needed to defend itself against Russian forces in the clashes which erupted last last week in the separatist region of South Ossetia.

Yakobashvili said that a small group of Georgian soldiers had able to wipe out an entire Russian military division due to this training.

"We killed 60 Russian soldiers just yesterday," said Yakobashvili. "The Russians have lost more than 50 tanks, and we have shot down 11 of their planes. They have enormous damage in terms of manpower,"

Yakobashvili warned that the Russians would try and open another battlefront in Abkhazia and he denied reports that the Georgian army was retreating. "The Georgian forces are not retreating. We move our military according to security needs."
Source (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1010187.html)


I feel sorry for the Russians viciously attacked and murdered for nothing. There ZOG stooges poked a sleeping bear and I just heard that Russia sank a Georgian warship.

Of course the traitorous bush government armed the Georgians and prodded them into attacking South Ossetia and murdering the Russians there, and now that there is war, of course the Americans and israeli's that provoked this shit are sitting on their hands doing nothing.

The Russians should bomb Georgia back into the stone age for this action.

[burnt]

honestly I really do hope Russia absorbs Georgia.

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by Effendi
This should be a lesson to the world what happens when you attack an innocent sovereign country.

And therin is the rub. Is South Ossetia a independent sovereign country? They would like to think so, but the Georgians don't. And neither does the international community. This is why I questioned mercuria over her wording when she said something like "Georgia is trying to annex South Ossetia". If South Ossetia is part of Georgia, then Georgia cannot 'annex' or 'invade' it.

I'm not saying that I think South Ossetia shouldn't be allowed to cede from Georgia - but it has to happen officially and be recognized by the international community to gain legitimacy, not under the shady arms of a neo-empiricist Putin.

[Cedwyn]

isn't South Ossetia quasi-independent, though, kinda like the kurds? like, they've basically been granted de facto independence, even though they technically belong to georgia?

[budaho]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
isn't South Ossetia quasi-independent, though, kinda like the kurds? like, they've basically been granted de facto independence, even though they technically belong to georgia?

thats my understanding. they are officially a part of georgia but have operated independently for years since georgia hasn't had the strength to do anything about it. what i don't get is what changed in georgia's caculations to make them think they had the strength to do something about it now. my guess is that they were given some kind of assurances of support from nato countries with an interest in the oil flowing through the pipeline in ossetia. i doubt there was ever much thought of honoring those assurances, provoking this kind of a response from russia gives the west a perfect opportunity to smear russia and weaken any support it offers iran in the international community.

[budaho]

Originally posted by Boyd Main
And therin is the rub. Is South Ossetia a independent sovereign country? They would like to think so, but the Georgians don't. And neither does the international community. This is why I questioned mercuria over her wording when she said something like "Georgia is trying to annex South Ossetia". If South Ossetia is part of Georgia, then Georgia cannot 'annex' or 'invade' it.

I'm not saying that I think South Ossetia shouldn't be allowed to cede from Georgia - but it has to happen officially and be recognized by the international community to gain legitimacy, not under the shady arms of a neo-empiricist Putin.

i'm not too concerned with the semantics of whether georgian actions should be called an invasion an occupation a deployment or a new civil war. the problem as i see it isn't that georgia invaded an area of its territory it had largely lost control over, its that it invaded to try to intimidate and bully the ethinic russian population out of the territory.

[jovana]

Originally posted by mercuria
so, i watched SKY, CNN, BBC.
read the Times, NYT, the Guardian.
it's amazing, really, what media can do.

they showed pictures of Tskhinvali, the ossetian capital, under georgian fire.
but said it was the georgian capital, assaulted by Russians.

they said Russian tanks rolled into Georgia, while the world was watching the opening of the Olympics in Beijing. while Georgian shelling of Tskhinvali started 5 minutes to midnight on 080808.

CNN reported that Russian tanks rolled into Tbilisi. meanwhile, Georgian channels showed a peaceful protest outside of the Russian embassy.

basically, 90 per cent of what the Western media shows and writes is a lie. blatant, purposeful lie.

saying this from the POV of a person, who gets the information from people who ARE in Ossetia right now.

i don't know what kind of news people in the us are getting, but what we are hearing in the uk is pretty much what you have said. i imagine there is a different spin in us media because there is always a distrust of russia in american media. the bbc hasn't been bad. they have been reporting about what russian action, but have done well to make it clear that it isn't an act of russian aggressian so much as russia coming to the aid of russians who are in danger of ethnic cleansing. your comparison to spain and the basque situation is pretty much spot on.

Originally posted by Effendi
I hope Putin completely destroys Georgia's infrastructure.

This should be a lesson to the world what happens when you attack an innocent sovereign country.

Georgia (with it's set of clip on US and israeli ballz) thought it would invade South Ossetia and murder the Russian peace keepers stationed there. Now they are getting their collective asses kicked.

Here is the report from the Georgian zionist stooge getting his clock cleaned..

I feel sorry for the Russians viciously attacked and murdered for nothing. There ZOG stooges poked a sleeping bear and I just heard that Russia sank a Georgian warship.

Of course the traitorous bush government armed the Georgians and prodded them into attacking South Ossetia and murdering the Russians there, and now that there is war, of course the Americans and israeli's that provoked this shit are sitting on their hands doing nothing.

The Russians should bomb Georgia back into the stone age for this action.

+ 1 anti semitism

militarys work with eachother and do training all the time. the israeli air force is trained by the brits, so maybe the british are partly to blame as well? how did israeli's provoke anything by providing military training? this kind of on and off violence isn't just a characteristic of the balkans but of the areas around it as well....the sepratism and subsequent retaliation is something that would have happened with or without any us or israeli involvement, its the way this region works. and without israel or the us it would have been someone else providing military technology and training.

and on another note, where is all this putin's empire crap coming from? do people actually belive this shit? is america really still so haunted by the cold war that any russian aggression is seen as an attempt to rebuild the soviet empire to dominate the world. i don't remember people ever clammering about the british tying to rebuild their empire when they had troops in ireland for reasons of national security.

p.s. i find it interesting scott, that coming from somoene who does not support the israeli occupation of palestinian territories, that you support russian occupation of georgian territoris. in both cases are the so callled russian and israeli "aggressors" providing a military presence for the protection of their citizens

[mercuria]

budaho intepreted my emontion-fueled attempts at international events sphere correctly. with one exception.
Majority of S. Ossetian citizens ARE ossetian. but they have Russian passports -- i.e., they're Russian citizens. therefore, as soon as Saakashvili launched the first strike, complete with civillian and peacekeeping casualties, Russia immediately jumped in, saying that it deems it suitable to protect its citizens everywhere.

the gist of the matter is that while there were no ethnic cleansing of Russians, there WERE measures taken against Ossetians.

i do not believe Russia should absorb Georgia.
but i do believe Russia and Georgia must get along.
Unfortunately, Georgia immediately took an anti-Russian stance after the collapse of the USSR. hoping, i assume, for support from the West -- primarily from the United States. and it has retained that position for the last 15 years.
There are ways to amend the situation. but, i'm afraid, the only way that will happen is if Saakashvili will get a call from the White House, with the appropriate instructions.

Erik, i called the matter laughable because in this war, the matters of Iran and Russia's desire to get at the US are practically invisible. it's like an old ulcer that has been bothering the country for a while, and finally opened for no reason -- on Russia's part.

anyhow, as i'm being called in to work, i have to say that the most important thing for ME, personally, is for this conflict to be over as soon as possible.
at this point, along with civillians, it's the journalists that are suffering the most.
2 Russians journalists have already been killed, one is missing.
i want my friends to come home, and drink wine with me.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by jovana
+ 1 anti semitism

Of course it is. Any clear condemnation of violence and murder sponsored by the racist apartheid state must be anti-semitism.

It's always the easiest way to redirect the conversation anytime discussion of the crimes of israel are breached, just call them an anti-Semite.

An anti-semite isn't someone who hates jews, it's someone the jews hate.

militarys work with each other and do training all the time. the israeli air force is trained by the brits, so maybe the british are partly to blame as well?

And France and any other ZOG (Zionist occupied government)

how did israeli's provoke anything by providing military training?

Did the israeli's provide anything but the intelligence of the Uranium from Niger and the threats of a mushroom cloud over an American city to get us into the quagmire that is Iraq?

Has the racist apartheid state done anything but provide false information regarding Iran's LEGAL nuclear program that nearly got America into a war with Iran that would be beneficial to the zionists but cause the destruction of America?

this kind of on and off violence isn't just a characteristic of the balkans but of the areas around it as well....the sepratism and subsequent retaliation is something that would have happened with or without any us or israeli involvement,

Not true.

Without American and israeli Military support, arms and advisers, there is no way the Georgians would have been brave enough to surprise attack and murder Russian peace keepers in South Ossetia.

It would NOT "have happened anyway".

its the way this region works. and without israel or the us it would have been someone else providing military technology and training.

The military cooperation between the countries developed swiftly. The fact that Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew contributed to this cooperation.

"His door was always open to the Israelis who came and offered his country arms systems made in Israel," the source said. "Compared to countries in Eastern Europe, the deals in this country were conducted fast, mainly due to the defense minister's personal involvement."
(http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3580136,00.html)


p.s. i find it interesting scott, that coming from somoene who does not support the israeli occupation of palestinian territories, that you support russian occupation of georgian territoris.

South Ossetia is NOT Georgian territory. Most of the citizens of South Ossetia carry RUSSIAN passports and are Russian citizens.

This event began Friday night with Georgian troops attacking and murdering 1,000 Russian Citizens on Russian soil. Then the next day they bragged that with American gear and israeli advisers on the ground, they were able to shanghai and murder another division of Russian PEACE KEEPERS.

in both cases are the so callled russian and israeli "aggressors" providing a military presence for the protection of their citizens
Apples to Oranges Jovana, these two situations are nothing like each other.

The zionists took Palestine by military force and no one is armed enough to make the situation right. In a just world where the Palestinians were considered human by any of the rest of humanity, the land thieving zionazi's wouldn't be allowed to murder them daily with no repercussion.

What you call the IDF "Protecting it's citizens" is a band of racist thugs committing genocide through the inhabitants of another country. The racist apartheid state was born in jewish car bombs delivered to the British by the Irgun and the Stern gang. Before the zionists stole Palestine there was no violence in the region.

Don't even the try to correlate the Legal, just, protection of it's citizens by Russia government to be anything like the crimes of land stealing settlers in Palestine.

Yea I know you are going to defend your race right or wrong. I would to in your position.

But the situation in Russia is pretty clear and the Georgians are going to pay for listening to their proxy advisers.

[mercuria]

reading the comments to articles on the subject makes me a bit uneasy.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4500362.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043236/U-S-warns-Russia-end-Georgia-onslaught-fears-Moscow-seize-crucial-oil-pipelines.html

some of my favourite:

The Russian bear never was declawed, just waiting for an opportune moment...how convenient, the Olympics.

- N. Waters, Mississauga, Canada, 10/8/2008 18:04


Maybe this will wake up the Eurpean Governments on the stupidity of relying on Russian oil supplies. No need to send in the troops, just cut off the oil supply and the place will be shut down.
Wake up Europe while you still have the chance.

- Revy, Knoxville, Tennessee. USA, 10/8/2008 18:33 (this is is particularly darling. Revy exhibits some envialble knowledge from Knoxville. who new they had internet there?)


I feel so sorry for these people but I suppose the UK will shoulder the brunt of this war by having thousand of people fleeing for asylum here.

- Jo, Surrey, 10/8/2008 18:55

some useful insight from San Diego (this is on Times' website)
It is sad that we are going to sit allow the Georgians to be integrated back into Russia back into a future USSR. We should be sending every ship to Georgia and pulling some people out of Iraq to keep Georgia it's own country. Otherwise Georgia will soon be a city-state of Russia shortly.

George Scott, San Diego, USA

[mercuria]

Originally posted by jovana
where is all this putin's empire crap coming from? do people actually belive this shit? is america really still so haunted by the cold war that any russian aggression is seen as an attempt to rebuild the soviet empire to dominate the world.
see my post above.
apparently, the answer is "YES!"

[sea.envy]

Originally posted by B_tech
Anyone else feel Georgia fighting Russia is like an ant trying to wage war against a moving car?

That's hillarious, because that is exactly how my wife and I view this.

[burnt]

Originally posted by jovana

and on another note, where is all this putin's empire crap coming from? do people actually belive this shit?

um - he's made some severe modifications to both the Russian constitution and the organization of Russian government over the last few years that avails itself to this shit?

anyway, I didn't realize so many of the Osettians were actually Russian citizens carrying Russian passports. the invasion makes a lot of sense. I guess it'd be a little like us invading Mexico to rescue dumb party kids twisted up in a bad situation in Tijuana.

still the global positioning has got to be a hell of a cherry on top. people also actually "believe this shit" that Bush will bomb Iran in his last couple months in office, or that McCain will his first couple months in office. with Russia so close, I can see those two chickening out. which - to me - is a good thing.

I'd rather see these kinds of 2nd shelf countries - Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia - under the arms of some kind of Russian Union, than in the European Union. more of an economic / open passport thing, than a communist/military state thing. and I would applaud this. I don't want them getting guns in exchange for housing hush hush US rendition/torture dungeons.

I don't think Putin is the next Krushchev. and I don't think we'll ever see a Soviet Union again. but please, don't front like Putin isn't positioning for something grander.

[Boyd Main]

Hmmmm, I am having trouble deciphering the propaganda from the news here. On one hand, the continuing southward push of Russian forces into Georgia proper (if it's true) doesn't do much to bolster Russia's claims of just protecting peacekeepers and South Ossetian Russians. On the other hand, ethnic cleansing by Georgian forces in South Ossetia (if it's true) would certainly justify Russia's actions, so far.

I've got a feeling it will be a long time before the real truth comes out about this, if at all.

[budaho]

Originally posted by Boyd Main

I've got a feeling it will be a long time before the real truth comes out about this, if at all.

the truth is what the winner says it is usually...

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Boyd Main
Hmmmm, I am having trouble deciphering the propaganda from the news here. On one hand, the continuing southward push of Russian forces into Georgia proper (if it's true) doesn't do much to bolster Russia's claims of just protecting peacekeepers and South Ossetian Russians. On the other hand, ethnic cleansing by Georgian forces in South Ossetia (if it's true) would certainly justify Russia's actions, so far.

k, so I'm not alone here.

The claim that 'we will not allow genocide by the Georgians' seems to be negated once you start pushing INTO Georgia and marching to Tblisi.

[budaho]

On the BBC I was just hearing the head of georgia's legislature's foreign relations commitee practically begging for a millitary intervention from NATO or the US. I haven't heard if Saakashvili has asked yet but i bet its comming. I cant really see anyone offering much more than diplomatic support, but if US planes do intervene against russian forces that will be bad bad bad! Russia won't take that lightly.

I still don't think russia was wrong to stop the geogian opperations, however, the longer this goes the more it seems like Putin's answer to making sure it doesn't happen again is to get rid of Saakashvili, and maybe the whole government. At a minimum he looks like he's decided to cripple georgia's military infrastructure.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by pretylc
That is nuts. I am glad I don't live over there.

LOL People says the same about us.

[mercuria]

Georgia to leave CIS as Medvedev orders end to military operation (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28870)

[Effendi]

http://users.skynet.be/fa018426/Georgia.jpg

[gingerballs]

LOL!

Where did you find that?

[darkcorner]

^^^^^^BwaaaaHahahahahahaha!!!^^^^^^
I love idiots.

[budaho]

speaking of idiots, did anyone see this?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=179208&title=anti-olympic-update-in-europe

lol at the 3am moment.

[mercuria]

after dealing with this for 12 straight hours, 5 days in a row, i'm tired, sick, and desensitized.

don't know if anyone's seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

but we were watching one of our most prominent journalists on BBC today (a Georgian, and a Kremlin critic) who said it wasn't Russia that attacked first.
and they cut him off mid-sentence, saying their time's running out.
we laughed.
at this point i don't even get mad anymore. i just can't. if i represent the country that's just innately evil -- so be it.
ironically, it made me understand how some of you, Americans, may feel.

ever yours,
i.

[burnt]

oh don't get me wrong ma'am.

I know Georgia is about one rung up the evolutionary ladder from Kazahkstan. I know they were slaughtering innocent Russians visiting Georgia, I know Russians were encouraged to visit and post up in Osettia, then murdered by some dipshit in a fancy suit trying to impress Bush. I know you guys aren't in the wrong here.

I know the western powers-that-be still harbor a grudge from the cold war days and mutters curses under their collective breath that your country and culture bounced back from your recession so quickly and capably.

and I know western media outlets are a big, skewed, one-sided censorfest - lately more than ever.

I'm sorry your friend had to deal with the British version of Bill O'Reilly's "cut his mic" style of journalism.

[mercuria]

see, i don't even get anyone wrong anymore.
i don't want to "get" anyone.

you know what my most vivid recent impression is?
watching a feed from our correspondent in Tskhinvali, a capital of S. Ossetia.
rubble, burned-down-to-the-ground buildings, etc.
a woman, that gave birth in a basement during the bombing.
all that dramatic stuff.

there was a shot of two burned logs. and i thought they had a funny shape. then i stopped the video, reversed, paused it. and realised, that i was looking at a woman and a child scorched to a crisp. their heads smashed by a celing beam, or something of that sort.

second on my "weekly impressions" list is a close-up of a wound, crawling with worms. a shot pans out, and you see that it's a shrapnel wound in a man's stomach. he's still alive, i gather.

the temperatures were in the 90s there. and the sewage system is gone. and everyone who was left in Tskhinvali had to chip in burying corpses, because they started decaying rapidly. and the entire city reeked of rotting human flesh. our reporters say it's an oddly sweet smell.

and funerals backyards. there are two reasons for that. one i already mentioned: hot temps. the second one is that at least one cemetery has been destroyed. there was a woman, who said she never thought her mother's bones would be blown up, and mixed with dust. ashes to ashes, i suppose.

anyways. i look at the pictures, and i draw my own conclusions.
and i am in no right to impose my opinions on others. thus, i'm absolutely calm and collected. and, honestly, a bit upset that i'm married. if i weren't -- i'd be reporting there. i'd volunteer on day one.

[RacergirlX]

Kicking it up a notch: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2566005/Russia-threatens-nuclear-attack-on-Poland-over-US-missile-shield-deal.html