Revoking Israel's UN Membership, call racist apartheid what it is!!

[Effendi]

I promised no more offensive zionist threads, and I will check my opinion in order to remain polite.

But the current murderous genocide of the Palestinian people by the zionists must end soon.

The world condemns the atrocities carried out by the Nazi's against blacks, gays , jews and others, yet right before our eyes, we are allowing the exact same behavior to happen IN REAL TIME.

I have highlighted in red the words of former speaker of Knesset, Avraham Burg, the man speaks the obvious truth.



Stockholm, December 4, 2008

The Gaza Strip is now the largest concentration camp in the world. The situation grows steadily more insufferable for the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there. Deliveries of food, medicine and fuel are made difficult or stopped altogether. Child malnutrition is increasing. Water supplies and drainage have ceased to function. Children die for lack of healthcare. Tunnels to Egypt, dug by hand, are the only breathing space. Journalists and diplomats are denied entry. Israel is planning more military efforts. The Palestinians in Gaza are now to be starved into surrender and become an Egyptian problem.

The UN should use the word apartheid in connection with Israel and consider sanctions with the former South Africa serving as a model. Miguel dÉscoto Brockman, president of the UN General Assembly, conveyed this message at a meeting on November 24th 2008 with the UN General Secretary Ban Ki-moon present.

The 1976 Nobel peace prize laureate, Mairead McGuire from Ireland, recently suggested a popular movement demanding that the UN revoke Israel’s membership. The international community now needs to put tangible pressure on Israel in order to stop its war crimes.

Not once, during the past 60 years, has Israel shown any intention of living up to the requirements stipulated by the UN, in connection with the country’s membership in 1948, namely that the Palestinians who had been evicted from their homes should be allowed to return at the earliest possible opportunity. Moreover, Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions.

It can be questioned from the aspect of human rights legislation whether Israel is a legitimate state. Established practice between states usually requires borders that are legally maintained and a constitution, neither of which Israel has. These requirements are also named in the UN resolution (181) Partition Plan for Palestine, approved by the General Assembly in November 1947. The plan was accepted by the Zionists Jews in Palestine but rejected for excellent reasons as unjust by the Arab states. Only decisions made by the UN Security Council are mandatory. Later on, Israel unilaterally laid claim to a considerably larger portion of land than that suggested by the UN.

The eviction of eighty per cent of the Palestinians who lived west of the 1947 armistice line, and Israel’s refusal to allow them to return is the human rights argument for expelling Israel from the UN. Not only has Israel played the Partition Plan false but has, by its actions, thwarted the grounds – fragile from the start – for its UN membership.

Israel makes use of various strategies to achieve its goals, the same goals as for over a hundred years ago: As few and as well controlled and weakened Palestinians as possible in areas as small as possible between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan. And to try and get acceptance worldwide for the theft of land that is vital to the "state" that calls itself "Jewish and democratic". This obviously bears no similarity to a peace process.

Why does nobody ever comment on the fact that Israel’s prime minister never misses an opportunity to harp on about how important it is that the rest of the world and the Palestinians recognise Israel, not as a democratic country for all its citizens, but as a "Jewish state"?

What would we have said if South Africa’s Prime Minister, in a similar way, had demanded recognition of South Africa as a "white and democratic state", thus de facto accepting the racist apartheid system that allowed non-whites to be classified as lesser human beings?

In the article The end of Zionism, published in the Guardian on September the 15th 2003 the Jewish dissident and former speaker of Knesset, Avraham Burg wrote:

"Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out … We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew ... The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy."

No support can be found in The UN recommendation concerning a Jewish and a Palestinian state for unequal rights for the citizens of each country. Neither is there any indication as to how a "Jewish" state could become Jewish. There is support, however, for the intention that demographic conditions should be held intact at partition. Interpreting into the text an intention concerning characteristics of a "Jewish state" tailored to the ideology of Zionism is wholly in contradiction with the text of the resolution.

Even the Balfour Declaration, which entirely lacks human rights status, notes that the Jewish national home in Palestine should in no way encroach upon the rights of the Palestinians. Neither did US President Truman recognise Israel as a Jewish state. On the contrary, he ruled out precisely that formulation before making his decision to recognise Israel.

Thus, the legitimacy of a "Jewish state" so urgently sought by Israel lacks support in international documents that concern the building of the state. Israel’s government is, of course, fully aware of this. Why else would it keep on searching for this recognition?

The UN should now embark on a boycott of the apartheid state of Israel and, with the threat of expulsion from the UN, demand that Israel allows the evicted Palestinian refugees to return in accordance with the UN resolutions 194 and 3236.

With this done, meaningful peace talks can proceed and various solutions be reached for co-habitation with equal rights for all people between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan. No such solution can be compatible with the preservation of a Jewish apartheid state.

source (http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m49340&hd=&size=1&l=e)

I have NOT "jew-bashed" anywhere in this thread, nor do I intend to, There is no "anti-semtism" or any of the other red herrings that are used to justify such actions.

Call an apple and apple. What is your opinion on this crisis?

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Effendi
Not once, during the past 60 years, has Israel shown any intention of living up to the requirements stipulated by the UN, in connection with the country’s membership in 1948, namely that the Palestinians who had been evicted from their homes should be allowed to return at the earliest possible opportunity. Moreover, Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions.

And do you know why? One word: PROOF.

You have people that were living on land illegally and unbeknownst to the land owners and you have others that didn't keep any documentation to prove they were removed from their land wrongfully.

How would you propose the claims be researched? Or would you expect everyone that claims they were removed to be allowed into the country?

[budaho]

Originally posted by B_tech
And do you know why? One word: PROOF.

You have people that were living on land illegally and unbeknownst to the land owners and you have others that didn't keep any documentation to prove they were removed from their land wrongfully.

How would you propose the claims be researched? Or would you expect everyone that claims they were removed to be allowed into the country?

the state could aways hire researchers, you know like anthropologists who specialize in finding that kind of thing out...

its what many native american communities have been doing. they have a very similar problem in dealing with land claims by people for whom the records are not very accurate or complete.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by B_tech
And do you know why? One word: PROOF.


So it is incumbent in your eyes for the people who were ejected from their land in 1948 somehow 'PROVE" that their land was stolen by ashkenazim settlers?

The zionists are quick to point to pictures of dead bodies in concentration camps, yet conveniently disregard film of the Palestinians getting removed from their land.

"Proof" is only something that is believed, not displayed.

israel is a racist apartheid state with the audacity to claim to be a democracy.

The world is quickly tiring of the current behavior displayed in the occupied territories.

Sweden, Austria and many other Nations with no horse in the race point to the deliberate genocide by starvation of 1.5 million Palestinians as "PROOF" of racism and apartheid akin to that of South Africa a decade ago.

I understand your need to defend all things jewish regardless of right or wrong Brandon, but what would be your definition of the current blockade of the Gaza that is resulting in extermination of a people?

[Headquarters]

On this topic in a more general sense something that has helped me look at this situation in a different light comes from a pretty good book that I read last spring called Precarious Life by Judith Butler. She talks about how we have a tendencey to think that any critisicm of Isreal automaticaly means that the person is anti jewish. I think if people stopped thinking that critisizing the actions of Isreal is not at all anti Jewish then there would be more understanding of how shitty the Palastinians are being treated.

pardon any spelling errors, i can't seem to find the spell check?!

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Effendi ]So it is incumbent in your eyes for the people who were ejected from their land in 1948 somehow 'PROVE" that their land was stolen by ashkenazim settlers?

The zionists are quick to point to pictures of dead bodies in concentration camps, yet conveniently disregard film of the Palestinians getting removed from their land.

You keep saying 'their land' and we've gone round and round about this, but the VAST majority of 'Palestinians' living there were doing so illegally and had ZERO ownership of land. You cannot take something from someone if it wasn't there's to begin with. Yes, SOME Arabs were removed and they should be allowed back in, but you and many of the others against Israel contend that ALL removed people should be allowed into the nation, but that is not congruent with the agreement. If someone is living on my property illegally and I don't know it, but I sell the land to someone else and they remove the people, those squatters don't magically have some right to that land they never owned. You know it and the rest of the Arab world knows it, but you're using these people as pawns to exert power on the Israeli government.


I understand your need to defend all things jewish regardless of right or wrong Brandon, but what would be your definition of the current blockade of the Gaza that is resulting in extermination of a people?
I'm actually torn. Part of me believes they should not block Gaza... but part of me knows that the P.A. is worthless and either Hamas or Fatah are going to simply use that as a chance to wheel in new ammunition to attack Israel. They've done it time and time again. So the question really is: Why aren't ARAB nations showing the concern and working WITH Israel to establish law and order in Gaza? Why aren't they mitigating the problem?

If you stop the lawlessness and attacks on Israel, I guarentee you the Knesset would have no issue with Gaza being run autonomously..but as I've said before time and again: Arab nations do not care about or want any of the 'Palestinians' in Gaza or the West Bank. If they did, they would show the concern for their brothers, swollow their fucking pride and work WITH Israel. The country isn't going anywhere, so give up the fucking dream that it is. Work with them and restore law and order and government to Gaza and you might surprised how shit changes.

[tr0llaccount]

fuck it, kill 'em all.

[budaho]

Originally posted by B_tech
You keep saying 'their land' and we've gone round and round about this, but the VAST majority of 'Palestinians' living there were doing so illegally and had ZERO ownership of land. You cannot take something from someone if it wasn't there's to begin with. Yes, SOME Arabs were removed and they should be allowed back in, but you and many of the others against Israel contend that ALL removed people should be allowed into the nation, but that is not congruent with the agreement. If someone is living on my property illegally and I don't know it, but I sell the land to someone else and they remove the people, those squatters don't magically have some right to that land they never owned. You know it and the rest of the Arab world knows it, but you're using these people as pawns to exert power on the Israeli government.


there's a difference between kicking a squatter off of a plot of land that you own, and kicking them out of a country entirely. i mean, should the US start deporting vagrants to mexico? or better yet, stick em on really resource poor indian reservations and then block off all supplies. if someone tries to sneak supplies in, arrest them and send them to gitmo, or just shoot em.

[gingerballs]

This is awesome. I want Israel to be seen for the evil state it is.

Not only that I would really like all the Israeli's with dual citizenship to be kicked the fuck out of our government.

Its illegal for them to vote, so how the fuck is it legal for them to hold major upper tier government positions?

I'm not anti-semtic, but you have to be a fucking blind man to not see that the upper Jewish crust has been playing the fucking world for hundreds of years.

We have been infiltrated at our upper levels by our Israeli "friends" and have been their fucking puppet against the Arab nations for a long time.

Originally posted by Effendi
The zionists are quick to point to pictures of dead bodies in concentration camps, yet conveniently disregard film of the Palestinians getting removed from their land.


Not to mention how pissed they get when people deeply investigate the holocaust. You know, because the more people investigate it the more it seems like maybe what we have been told about the camps and holocaust all together isn't very close to the truth.

Anytime people get pissed when you look at the "truth" they are presenting you, is the time you should look even closer.

[seattle science]

If I'm an Arab, am I allowed to live in Israel?

[B_tech]

Originally posted by budaho
there's a difference between kicking a squatter off of a plot of land that you own, and kicking them out of a country entirely. i mean, should the US start deporting vagrants to mexico? or better yet, stick em on really resource poor indian reservations and then block off all supplies. if someone tries to sneak supplies in, arrest them and send them to gitmo, or just shoot em. Apples and oranges, man and you know it.

The squatters on the land had no right to be there... as new owners of the land, the government/owners had the right to tell them to leave; if the govt wasn't going to support them and they were not citizens, they could be and SHOULD BE kicked out. If one isn't a citizen, they should be removed/deported. We expect the same of the Mexicans here illegally, except the dynamic is different.

Gingerballs- I suppose pictures and witness accounts are all wrong, as a part of a huge Jewish conspiracy for us to take over teH world... right? So when the allies went into the camps and documented what they saw... that was all lies.. a huge conspiracy? :rolleyes:

[B_tech]

Originally posted by seattle science
If I'm an Arab, am I allowed to live in Israel?
Yes... there's an Arab population there... but the anti-zionists seem to forget that.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by gingerballs
Not to mention how pissed they get when people deeply investigate the holocaust. You know, because the more people investigate it the more it seems like maybe what we have been told about the camps and holocaust all together isn't very close to the truth.

Anytime people get pissed when you look at the "truth" they are presenting you, is the time you should look even closer.

Why make insinuations when you can just say what you mean outright?

[Effendi]

.
The Holocaust did not occur as advertised!!

The Nazi's did create death camps, MANY Nationalities including Americans were taken there, Millions died, jews, blacks, poles, Russians and so on. There is no doubt that there were pogroms designed to cull those who were different including the jews.

The red cross numbers from the time clearly indicate a number much closer to 2 million jews 'may" have perished, but there is still 300,000 "holocaust survivors" living in israel and America today, 75 years later, WTF?

On top of that, their are over 400 holocaust museums around the world and every one of them is a jewish museum. The holocaust was horrific no doubt, but zionists turned it into a very lucrative business to this day.

No one is saying the holocaust didn't happen, we have film it clearly did. What we are saying is that it did not happen as the history books claim.

The irony is that they have put people in jail around the world for saying exactly what I just said.

You can say God doesn't exist and have a place in society, but if you try to study the holocaust and present your logical historical findings, you can be put in prison for it. If it happened the way they say it happened, then why criminalize the further study?

israel is not a democracy and is a thorn in the side of the world. It should be allowed to stand on it's own and either make it or break it alone.

The zionists are no friend of America and it's unfortunate that it took bankruptcy for America to seriously consider it's support of a failing racist apartheid state.

Even Defense Secretary Robert Gates supports President Obama's position that it's time to talk alot more to the Iranians and alot less to the israeli's.

Our steadfast support of the apartheid regime in Palestine has caused us nearly insurmountable damage around the world, all for the sake of an ancient idea and 5 million land thieves imported from the ghetto's of eastern europe.

America is waking up.

No More American Lives!!
No More American Money!!

[budaho]

Originally posted by B_tech
Apples and oranges, man and you know it.

The squatters on the land had no right to be there... as new owners of the land, the government/owners had the right to tell them to leave; if the govt wasn't going to support them and they were not citizens, they could be and SHOULD BE kicked out. If one isn't a citizen, they should be removed/deported. We expect the same of the Mexicans here illegally, except the dynamic is different.



the problem with that is the israeli state just arbitrarilly decided that the former inhabitants of that land weren't citizens of the country that was formed around them.

but i guess your right i was mischaracterizing your argument. deporting vagrants is a bit different.

but it's exactly the same as the behavior of a racist appartheid state. buy the land from colonial occupiers who took it by force of arms. call the indigenous population "squatters" and deport them, or put them in concentration camps.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by B_tech
Gingerballs- I suppose pictures and witness accounts are all wrong, as a part of a huge Jewish conspiracy for us to take over teH world... right? So when the allies went into the camps and documented what they saw... that was all lies.. a huge conspiracy? :rolleyes:

Not a huge conspiracy but a gross ignorance of what really happened and how many people really died and the manner they died in.

What was documented then and what has come to light now are two different things. Pictures can only capture so much truth.

I've heard differing eye witness reports as well. From German and Jewish people.

Regardless, that certain powerful (Jewish) groups get so very agitated and go to such lengths from keeping people from doing independent scientific and otherwise fact finding research that it becomes very suspect.


Yes, there were camps where people were killed for the simple fact that they were no longer useful to the Axis war machine. Yes near the end some of the camps killed a lot of people to cover their tracks. The fact is the majority of people in the camps were there to work, hence why they were fed, cleaned and had some medical care. Not all the camps were like this, Dachau was a straight up death camp.

The reasons Hitler and the German people did what he did also needs to be examined. Some would say Hitler and the people were so avid about getting rid of the Jews because of how they pushed and help finance WWI. Not saying it wasn't wrong, but to say that Hitler just flipped out and started killing Jewish people for no reason is a gross ignorance of history. It had a lot to do with the actions and power plays of the Jewish Financial institutions in Germany.

The census information as to how many people died in the camps or otherwise is shaky at best. The more research I did, the more I found that a lot of the time about 4 different numbers would get thrown out and the higher number would be picked as the official story.

But in the end they came back strong and now control our banking, entertainment and legal systems. Take that how you want but its just the facts.

[Andromeda.]

Originally posted by Effendi
.
The Holocaust did not occur as advertised!!

The Nazi's did create death camps, MANY Nationalities including Americans were taken there, Millions died, jews, blacks, poles, Russians and so on. There is no doubt that there were pogroms designed to cull those who were different including the jews.


and do not forget dirty gypsy!

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0701/borat_lebanon0109.jpg

*snickers* :D :D :D



.....but no really, you're right. there were "purifying" many "different" aspects from their society, those fucks went after everybody. poland got it the worst. they were flat out INVADED, as opposed to being weeded out.

sad not matter how you look at it :/ i'm leaving now.

[burnt]

refusing to concede that Israel might be making unethical geopolitical decisions, because of transgressions that occurred against them 60-70 years ago ...

... is just as asinine as ...

... refusing to concede that Germany might be doing something ethical and forward-thinking, geopolitically, because of transgressions that they committed 60-70 years ago.

it is anti-Semitic, to even discuss the Holocaust, when discussing Israeli-Palestinian conditions. both the United Nations, and all of us, need to discuss the current situation on the ground. World War 2 and the holocaust are relics of the past... most WW2 veterans and holocaust survivors are long dead... we need to move on.

are Palestinians launching covert civilian/terrorist style attacks on Israel? then Palestinian police and legal bodies must cooperate with Israeli and global legal bodies to bring those committing illegal acts to justics.

are Israeli military, police and/or legal bodies committing civilian/terrorist style attacks against Palestine? the Israel must cooperate.

if either side fails to cooperate - they deserve sanctions. simple as that. horrific unjustices that Israeli Jews *OR* Palestinian Arabs suffered 60-70 years ago... resulting in questionable land deals... are irrelevant, 60-70 years later.

to discuss these long-gone injustices as though they're actually relevant *TODAY*, is as dumb as a 25 year old drunk indian complaining about Andrew Jackson's horrible treatment of Native Americans, and what American society "owes" that young man today because of transgressions committed 150 years ago.

or, conversely, its as dumb as a great grandson of a pioneer demanding a Native American tribe pay restoration for some unprovoked attack on his great grandpappy's ranch.

never forget the past or we're condemned to repeat it. but one lesson we can learn from the past, is not to dwell on it.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
You keep saying 'their land' and we've gone round and round about this, but the VAST majority of 'Palestinians' living there were doing so illegally and had ZERO ownership of land. You cannot take something from someone if it wasn't there's to begin with.

What your opinion assumes is that morality and legality (never-mind the validity of your claim) are synonymous.
If we applied the standard you’ve adopted, to history – we’d have to conclude that the absence of western propriety and legal systems in North America justified the ethnic cleansing (and genocide) of indigenous cultures on this continent. (which is what American nationalists argued at the time)
We’d have to conclude that the legal determinations of Ankara, Belgrade, Berlin and so on - justified the expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid of people living within the sphere of influence of these governments.

The standard you’ve accepted, is a standard which when universally applied – would have you side your support with regimes and events that have been declared internationally as war-crimes/criminals.

More over, the standard you’ve accepted is demonstrably a violation of UN charter, Geneva Conventions, and the Nuremberg Principles. I’d be more than happy to discuss the pertinent violations with regards to these treaties and standards if you like, btw.


Yes, SOME Arabs were removed and they should be allowed back in, but you and many of the others against Israel contend that ALL removed people should be allowed into the nation, but that is not congruent with the agreement. If someone is living on my property illegally and I don't know it, but I sell the land to someone else and they remove the people, those squatters don't magically have some right to that land they never owned. You know it and the rest of the Arab world knows it, but you're using these people as pawns to exert power on the Israeli government.

1. The number of that “some” was 700,000 (who have gone on to have children, and they themselves children, and so on. Generations have been forced to live in squalid refugee camps, under demeaning and humiliating conditions. )

2. The number of Palestinian villages in present day Israel was 500 before 1948

3. 400 of those villages have been destroyed, most have been rebuilt upon.

4. The expulsion of these people was part of a systematic (and on-going) ethnic cleansing campaign by Israel/Haganah/IZL/LHI….





I'm actually torn. Part of me believes they should not block Gaza... but part of me knows that the P.A. is worthless and either Hamas or Fatah are going to simply use that as a chance to wheel in new ammunition to attack Israel. They've done it time and time again. So the question really is: Why aren't ARAB nations showing the concern and working WITH Israel to establish law and order in Gaza? Why aren't they mitigating the problem?


1. The power of the P.A. is derivative. It’s power is limited to those that Israel grants it, which is to say that every law it attempts to pass must first be okayed by Israel. It is designed by Israel to be a very weak governing body, with exceptionally limited powers - but simultaneously treated by Israel and the media as if it were a fully functioning, independent, government.

2. “The Law” which Israel allows in the West Bank and Gaza are only those laws it supports. All other laws are forcibly rejected. Your question is akin to asking why The Delaware tribes didn’t support the US’s occupation of Shawnee territory, and help to end Tecumseh’s rebellion…
The answer is because “the law” is a law of occupation and imperialism in both the case of the US, and Israel. Who both systematically ethnically cleansed their respective “lawless” regions, and subjected the indigenous population to military occupation and apartheid.


If you stop the lawlessness and attacks on Israel, I guarentee you the Knesset would have no issue with Gaza being run autonomously..


Conversely, if Israel halted their military occupation, colonization, apartheid, and accepted the Saudi Proposal (which a majority of Israelis, Americans, Arabs, and Palestinians support) – Palestinians would cease attacking Israel. We know this, because Fatah, the PFLP, and even Hamas have said so.

Instead it appears (?) your demand is that Palestinians accept Israeli domination, apartheid, and colonization. That only through the acceptance of subjugation at the hands of Israel can a tenable peace be made. That Israel is merely reactionary, merely defending itself, and genuinely seeks peace? Peace despite the perpetual demolition of homes and communities, peace despite occupation, despite humiliation and brutalization, despite rejection of talks, acceptance of a two-state-solution along 1967 borders, despite settlement/colony building, despite blockades etc.

Could it be, that Israel is the belligerent? The aggressor? The United States and not the Shawnee?


Arab nations do not care about or want any of the 'Palestinians' in Gaza or the West Bank. If they did, they would show the concern for their brothers, swollow their fucking pride and work WITH Israel. The country isn't going anywhere, so give up the fucking dream that it is. Work with them and restore law and order and government to Gaza and you might surprised how shit changes.

Arab nations have in fact worked on a solution, I mentioned the Saudi Proposal before. What you may be unaware of, is Israel’s perpetual rejection of peace of any suggestions of a two-state-solution predicated roughly on a return to ’67 borders.
Expecting Arab governments to “work with” Israel when it seeks the cementation of control over roughly 80% of Historic Palestine is once again, similar to expecting the Delaware to support and work with the US as it attempted to force the indigenous Shawnee into smaller enclaves/reservations.




Originally posted by B_tech
Apples and oranges, man and you know it.

The squatters on the land had no right to be there... as new owners of the land, the government/owners had the right to tell them to leave; if the govt wasn't going to support them and they were not citizens, they could be and SHOULD BE kicked out. If one isn't a citizen, they should be removed/deported. We expect the same of the Mexicans here illegally, except the dynamic is different.

The “new…government/owners” came to possess and control the land through occupation and imperialism. Which brings us back to your standard re: legality/propriety.
If we applied that standard universally we would be forced to concede that the US expulsion of native Americans was legitimate and correct, that the forced seizure of Jewish homes and communities in Warsaw was legitimate, that the settlement of Japanese colonies in Korea or Vietnam during WWII was legitimate.

Additionally, what does your standard say for the hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled nazi oppression in Europe, who fled pogroms and persecution in the Pale of the Settlement, and arrived (“illegally”) in Historic Palestine prior to 1948? Does not your logic dictate, your standards force your concession to the fact that the formation of Israel was primarily a product of illegal-immigration and therefore an unjustified and illegitimate event?

I’m interested in hearing if you believe these examples are not precise parallels, if they are not a precise application of the standards and beliefs you have expressed vis-à-vis Palestine


Originally posted by B_tech
Yes... there's an Arab population there... but the anti-zionists seem to forget that.

He didn’t’ ask if there was an arab population, he asked if he’d be able to live there. The answer is a resounding “no”. Even if his grandparents may have been evicted during the Nakba, and still hold deeds to a home in Acre.
Meanwhile, you by virtue of your Jewish heritage would in all likelihood be granted citizenship and full rights as such. Nor would he necessarily be able to become a citizen even if he married an Israeli woman – Israeli courts have ruled to deny citizenship to Palestinian/Arab spouses of Israelis.

[Andromeda.]

k. someone please explain to me exactly why the palestinians are "squatting" on "israeli land" --

-- because from what i can tell, the only reason that land "belongs" to the israelis is because it's considered their holy religious land of biblical times. and despite religious differences, they are essentially the same race of people.

so the question is, explain to me how this is NOT a claim on land using god as the excuse?

reminds me of the crusades...fucking ridiculous...ugh zionists and their crazy ass supporters...

another thing from what i understand is that the two nationalities get along fine on a fundamental, societal level; it's the respective governments and religious zealots / terrorists that are causing all the problems between the societies.

i think there's a much bigger and more sinister reason for all of this that none of us will ever really know about until it's already happened, whatever it is. to me, it appears that it's not so much that israel has the US by the balls so much that the US wants to keep its stranglehold on the region by any means necessary, even if it means encouraging this conflict no matter how wrong or not our place, and continuing to supply the weapons to support it. all this stoking of religious flames into a fury of "god given rights" and whatfuckingnot is just a way to justify to the generally-religious-masses that we somehow belong there and are supporting something righteous and holy when we're really just trying to expand the empire.

not to say we're the only bad guys and everyone over there is a victim of it all, i think they're all assholes. but it's ignorant to assume the US is ever just a pawn.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by burnt
it is anti-Semitic, to even discuss the Holocaust, when discussing Israeli-Palestinian conditions. both the United Nations, and all of us, need to discuss the current situation on the ground. World War 2 and the holocaust are relics of the past... most WW2 veterans and holocaust survivors are long dead... we need to move on.

Let me go a head and add that to some of the dumbest shit I've heard you say.

Its very relevant when looking at the last 70 years of history and how Israel and its people used what happened to put themselves in the positions they are in our government and in the middle east.

I was waiting for the "omg you are an anti-Semite" accusation blanket to go around. Go burn a fucking book already.

Originally posted by andromeda_68
k. someone please explain to me exactly why the palestinians are "squatting" on "israeli land" --


Because Israel said so and we back them up on it making the USA look like a bunch of fucking tool bags and making us a huge target to all the people that Israelis piss off in while waging their murderous land grab.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Plerr
Additionally, what does your standard say for the hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled nazi oppression in Europe, who fled pogroms and persecution in the Pale of the Settlement, and arrived (“illegally”) in Historic Palestine prior to 1948?


From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom:

"directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious, or other, and characterized by the killing and destruction of their homes, businesses, and religious centers. The term in English is often used to denote extensive violence against Jews — either spontaneous or premeditated — but it has also been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups."

The word "pogrom" Russian: погром came from the verb громить, Russian pronunciation: [grɐˈmʲitʲ] "to destroy, to wreak havoc, to demolish violently".

At Easter in Russia, Orthodox priests would rail against the Jews who were blamed for killing Jesus, and would whip their congregations into such a frenzy that no Jewish person's life or property was safe after that.

Mobs would go out, looking to wreak havoc on any unsuspecting, and completely innocent Jew, just because of their ethnicity and their religion.

It was also a "safe place" for the church to deflect any anger these people might harbor against the monarchy or the military.

Therefore, it is painfully correct and ironic that Issacharoff characterizes these attacks against peaceful Palestinians by the very people who should understand the bitter fruit of discrimination for any reason, as a "pogrom".

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr
2. “The Law” which Israel allows in the West Bank and Gaza are only those laws it supports. All other laws are forcibly rejected. Your question is akin to asking why The Delaware tribes didn’t support the US’s occupation of Shawnee territory, and help to end Tecumseh’s rebellion…
The answer is because “the law” is a law of occupation and imperialism in both the case of the US, and Israel. Who both systematically ethnically cleansed their respective “lawless” regions, and subjected the indigenous population to military occupation and apartheid.

Ahhh... so this is another instance of where the people aren't responsible for themselves... it's the big, bad society that's to blame? Fact remains that the 'leaders' are terrorist organizations; one just happens to be more moderate than the other.


Conversely, if Israel halted their military occupation, colonization, apartheid, and accepted the Saudi Proposal (which a majority of Israelis, Americans, Arabs, and Palestinians support) – Palestinians would cease attacking Israel. We know this, because Fatah, the PFLP, and even Hamas have said so.
Bullshit. The pulling out of Gaza and subsequent attacks on Israel are proof that you're wrong.



Expecting Arab governments to “work with” Israel when it seeks the cementation of control over roughly 80% of Historic Palestine is once again, similar to expecting the Delaware to support and work with the US as it attempted to force the indigenous Shawnee into smaller enclaves/reservations.
It's nothing alike and you know it. Israel was created and IMMEDIATELY the neighboring Arab nations set out to destroy it. WHen that failed several times, they used the uprising of the Arab population in the seized territories to further their agenda. They funded and armed Hamas, I.J. and Fatah... so yes, I expect them to work with Israel and right the wrong they did. Those groups would have died off LONG ago, if not for the constant funding and arming... if Israel has to right the wrongs, so should the Arab neighbors.


The “new…government/owners” came to possess and control the land through occupation and imperialism. Which brings us back to your standard re: legality/propriety.
If we applied that standard universally we would be forced to concede that the US expulsion of native Americans was legitimate and correct, that the forced seizure of Jewish homes and communities in Warsaw was legitimate, that the settlement of Japanese colonies in Korea or Vietnam during WWII was legitimate.
Last I checked, Polish homes were seized and not BOUGHT in Poland... again, your argument is flawed. The Nazis didn't roll into Poland with deeds in their hands and the Pols living there weren't living on land that was sold from under them.


andromeda- Many of the 'Palestinians' that were living on land, like in the Galilee, were doing so illegally and without the knowledge of the land owners, who were Turks and others that never came to that region. THAT is why they are considered squatters.

[More Wise]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conversely, if Israel halted their military occupation, colonization, apartheid, and accepted the Saudi Proposal (which a majority of Israelis, Americans, Arabs, and Palestinians support) – Palestinians would cease attacking Israel. We know this, because Fatah, the PFLP, and even Hamas have said so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bullshit. The pulling out of Gaza and subsequent attacks on Israel are proof that you're wrong.

===============================

hamas is dead set on the destruction of israel. they see no other solution. i was a long time supporter of hamas until i had a lengthy discussion with a close friend about the situation. hamas has more motivation to continue than to listen to a peace proposal. there is no end, just maintenance at this point.

while i agree with the difficulties of the palestinians and know them very well and first hand through family members... i feel that both sides are blinded by the past and need to look forward to the future.

forgetting the holocaust is a fantastic idea. you were not the only "people" (judaism is debatable as a race and not just a religion, culture yes, race no) to have lost greatly.. many have suffered, the ones that survive move on and move forward. the rest kill themselves holding onto what? its nothing we can solve now.. it is gone... holding onto it does nothing for you or anyone else.

often times i remember how i was force fed the diary of anne frank 3 times through out middle and high school... and how we would have a holocaust survivor speak to us etc... how we should never forget... and never let it happen again... yet we turn our heads when it is happening again... and go on about our lives..

if israel really wants us to keep the holocaust from happening again... they should lead by example, not take notes.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
Ahhh... so this is another instance of where the people aren't responsible for themselves... it's the big, bad society that's to blame? Fact remains that the 'leaders' are terrorist organizations; one just happens to be more moderate than the other.

1. You didn’t understand my comment. My contention was not that people should not be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. I believe we should do just the opposite, and hold everyone intimately responsible for the demonstrable impacts of their behavior.

2. My contention was that your standard for “ownership” and rightful ascendancy to the contested territory this conflict involves, is based solely on a philosophy which correlates propriety systems with morality.
2a - This standard/philosophy if applied universally would require the support for historical injustices, and war-crimes (such as the genocide of native Americans, or eastern European pogroms against Jews)
2b. – This standard doesn’t take into account occupancy, use, need, labor, or historical habitation.

3. The US Army Manual defines terrorism as: "calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear. It is intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies ... [to attain] political, religious, or ideological goals."
3a. – If we apply this standard equally, I think we will be forced to conclude that Israel is the primary purveyor of terrorism in the region and historically. That the Israeli government and the IDF/IAF are imperialist, terrorist organizations.





Bullshit. The pulling out of Gaza and subsequent attacks on Israel are proof that you're wrong.

This is a common argument, which assumes (I think) that pull out of Gaza was somehow a reduction in the oppression, apartheid, and occupation by Israel. It’s a viewpoint which is likely unaware of the fact that: In the first half of 2005, the year the 'disengagement' was carried out, "there was a twenty-eight percent increase in settlement housing starts compared to the same period in 2004", according to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/12/26/israel-expanding-settlements-occupied-palestinian-territories)

So what has happened has been precisely the opposite of what it seems you may actually believe. What has actually happened, was an increase in the erosion of Palestinian rights and access.

Ephraim Sneh, a member of the Israeli Labor Party who has held several senior posts in the Israeli military and government, has summarized the purposes of the 'disengagement' plan. "The goal is to perpetuate Israeli control in most of the West Bank, and to repel any internal or external pressure for a different political solution," he writes. When the construction projects are complete, "The Palestinians will be left with seven enclaves connected by special highways for their use", and Israel will be left in control of eighty percent of historic Palestine. The enclaves created by the Wall and settlements will, if the Sharonists have their way, form the basis of a Palestinian "state"

Palestinians continue fighting – but not despite a magnanimous, generous offer by Israel (which btw, was merely Israel adhering to international law…) – their rights and existence have been diminished since the pull-out throughout both Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel did not trade land for peace with regards to Gaza, it traded land for land – taking even more land in the west bank than was held in Gaza.


It's nothing alike and you know it. Israel was created and IMMEDIATELY the neighboring Arab nations set out to destroy it.

It’s precisely like the destruction of Native American cultures in the United States.

Israel was “created” belligerently, and through aggression. Israel was declared in 1948 while in the midst of a civil war between Jews and Palestinians. The military superiority of the Haganah/IHL/IZL and so on allowed them to take territory, and forcefully expel the indigenous populations. It wasn’t until after the Haganah et al. had conquered a sufficient amount of territory and evicted a sufficient number of civilians, that the declaration of Israel was made.
It was more akin to the declaration of the Republica Srpska by the Bosnian Serb forces after they had violently attacked and ethnically cleansed Bosnian and Croat populations from their areas.

Israel had no more right to conquer, evict, and declare statehood within their captured territories – than Palestinians or Arab-forces had the right to conquer, evict, and declare statehood within territories they may have captured. This premise that somehow Israel’s rights of statehood are rooted in something other than it’s own violent version of Manifest Destiny – that somehow it was okay for Israel to attack and conquer, but incorrect for Arabs – is not only a deep and ignorant hypocrisy, but also one that is tinged with racial/ethnic favoritism.


When that failed several times, they used the uprising of the Arab population in the seized territories to further their agenda. They funded and armed Hamas, I.J. and Fatah... so yes, I expect them to work with Israel and right the wrong they did. Those groups would have died off LONG ago, if not for the constant funding and arming... if Israel has to right the wrongs, so should the Arab neighbors.

The Arab world has done much more to bring about a resolution to the conflict that Israel has, or even attempted to. At every turn Israel has chosen (within the scope of Palestinians and Arab conflicts…) expansion over peace, when it could. The Arab world has, and still is trying to work with Israel. What you may be unaware of, is Israel’s flat out rejection to participate in serious peace talks. Every other party, from the Arab states, to Palestinian militant groups, has an offer open in perpetuity for cease-fire and talks.


Last I checked, Polish homes were seized and not BOUGHT in Poland... again, your argument is flawed. The Nazis didn't roll into Poland with deeds in their hands and the Pols living there weren't living on land that was sold from under them.

1. Palestinians homes were seized in 1948 – and their inhabitants ethnically cleansed.
2. Seized again in 1967
3. Have been perpetually destroyed and seized by Israel/settlers ’67 – present.
4. More than just homes, whole swaths of territory have been seized and made off-limits to Palestinians. Including their cultural and religious epicenters
4a. Today 40% of the West Bank is off-limits to Palestinians, as they are not allowed to live in Israeli settlements, drive on Israeli-only roads connecting these settlements, or even live or travel through "security zones," surrounding the settlements.
4b. Following the 1967 war, Israel created what it calls "Greater Jerusalem." It did this by expanding the borders of East Jerusalem to include surrounding areas of the West Bank



Many of the 'Palestinians' that were living on land, like in the Galilee, were doing so illegally and without the knowledge of the land owners, who were Turks and others that never came to that region. THAT is why they are considered squatters.

This is a wonderful example of the innate parallels between your viewpoint, and that of recognizable instances of imperialism, belligerence, and war-crimes (e.g. article IV Nuremberg principles). Thank you for the quote.

1. In your zeal to justify Israel’s eviction and ethnic cleansing of families living in long established communities, with sophisticated degrees of cultures…you have built your argument on the foundation of Ottoman imperialism.

2. Your statement above ignores the generational inhabitence of the region by the Palestinians cleansed in 1947/48 and beyond. It ignores the fact that it was their labor, and the labor of their family and communities before them who build the villages, tended the farms, and created the infrastructures in place. Your sole preoccupation is with the propriety system, and not human rights. Identical to prevailing 18th & 19th century American viewpoints with regards to Native American rights.

[burnt]

Originally posted by gingerballs
Let me go a head and add that to some of the dumbest shit I've heard you say.


I'm sorry you're right. I see the error of my ways. when a defense attorney says so-and-so was beaten up as a kid, and thats why they rape or kill or sell dr00gs laced with bleach, its also relevant to really think about their sad childhood and to let what happened 25 years ago as much weight as what happened last Thursday

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr

1. In your zeal to justify Israel’s eviction and ethnic cleansing of families living in long established communities, with sophisticated degrees of cultures…you have built your argument on the foundation of Ottoman imperialism.

And America was due to English imperialism.. and other nations were due to Roman imperialism... how far do you want to go back and how much blame do you want to lay here?
By your notion, all civilizations are unethical, because they were founded on the intention of nation building.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by burnt
I'm sorry you're right. I see the error of my ways. when a defense attorney says so-and-so was beaten up as a kid, and thats why they rape or kill or sell dr00gs laced with bleach, its also relevant to really think about their sad childhood and to let what happened 25 years ago as much weight as what happened last Thursday

Point officially missed.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
And America was due to English imperialism.. and other nations were due to Roman imperialism... how far do you want to go back and how much blame do you want to lay here?
By your notion, all civilizations are unethical, because they were founded on the intention of nation building.

1. we don't need to go back further than 1947 to discuss the illegitimacy of Israeli claims to sovereignty and behavior which meets even the most ardent international standards for war crimes and terrorism

2. I want to lay blame where it's due, no more/less.

3. Israel is an apartheid state (on par or worse than South Africa was), and actively practicing colonialism. Israel has been in perpetual violation of UN charter, Geneva Conventions, and international human rights standards since it's inception.

4. It is therefore incumbent upon Israel and it's supporters to advocate a reasonable, sane, and consistent standards. To put aside their religious, ethnic, and political prejudices and adopt conceptions of human rights that are universal and humane. To stop supporting (and almost as worse...) diminishing the very profound human rights abuses committed by Israel as a matter of policy - at the expense of am entire (and distinct) people.

[budaho]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
k. someone please explain to me exactly why the palestinians are "squatting" on "israeli land" --


because the zionists paid british and saudi colonial bankers for the "deeds" to the land when the british pulled out.

[seattle science]

It's basically a massive case of player hating.

One group turns sand into prosperity w/ cooperation and smart logistical planning, while the other group can't accomplish a damn thing. Of course they're going to hate on the successful one. Human nature.

[Cethe]

Originally posted by Plerr
1. we don't need to go back further than 1947 to discuss the illegitimacy of Israeli claims to sovereignty and behavior which meets even the most ardent international standards for war crimes and terrorism

2. I want to lay blame where it's due, no more/less.

#1 - I'd disagree...for 3-5000 years there's been a huge land ownership debate in that lil sandbox... aka "the holy land" .... it's not gonna stop until religion stops.

#2 - that's what the major problem is. no one can accept blame, and no one can agree on who should.
imo, the only soltion is to just STOP. Live in pease & worry less about what beliefs your neighbor holds. The world is too small to continue this endless war.

[burnt]

Originally posted by seattle science
It's basically a massive case of player hating.

One group turns sand into prosperity w/ cooperation and smart logistical planning, while the other group can't accomplish a damn thing. Of course they're going to hate on the successful one. Human nature.

aaaahahaha, touche.

I don't have much love for either of 'em.

Israel is our greatest ally in the middle east? really? then how come they didn't join the "coalition of the willing" ?

Afghanistan did. Uzbekistan did. Macedonia did. Azerbaijan, Albania, and Kazahkstan sent troops.

but Israel?

well they couldn't even be bothered to issue any "declarations finding that Iraq was a threat" or provide "diplomatic and strategic support".

our friends in the middle east? pfff...

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr 1. we don't need to go back further than 1947 to discuss the illegitimacy of Israeli claims to sovereignty and behavior which meets even the most ardent international standards for war crimes and terrorism
Then you have answered your own question. Regardless of how you disapprove of the creation of the nation, the land was purchased and the UN backed the creation of the country. If we are to negate the legitimacy of a nation based on how unpopular is is, then very few nations, including our own, would exist.


2. I want to lay blame where it's due, no more/less.
Then stop being one-sided and conceed that there is blame laid on BOTH sides.


3. Israel is an apartheid state (on par or worse than South Africa was), and actively practicing colonialism. Israel has been in perpetual violation of UN charter, Geneva Conventions, and international human rights standards since it's inception.
Prima facia, yes, it is an apartheid state. But there's a dynamic that Europeans and Americans just can't seem to wrap their pea brains around: Arabs don't want to live with Jews; the segregation is due partially to physical limitations, but also because you're trying to mix two diametrially different societies together. It's similar to the integration of blacks into 'white' American culture; many blacks didn't WANT to be integrated... they had no trust for whites and wanted to do their own thing (many blacks are still of that view). If you expect to *poof* one day have harmony and Arabs living nextdoor to Jews and being part of their communities, you're in for a long wait. The two have hated each other for 2000+ years.


4. It is therefore incumbent upon Israel and it's supporters to advocate a reasonable, sane, and consistent standards. To put aside their religious, ethnic, and political prejudices and adopt conceptions of human rights that are universal and humane. To stop supporting (and almost as worse...) diminishing the very profound human rights abuses committed by Israel as a matter of policy - at the expense of am entire (and distinct) people.
Again, it takes two to tango... for any peace to exist BOTH sides have to be willing to make sacrafices. You seem to want to lay the blame all on the Israelis, which is biased and unfair.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by burnt

Israel is our greatest ally in the middle east? really? then how come they didn't join the "coalition of the willing" ?



They didn't need to, they provided all the intelligence, from "mushrooms clouds over American cities" to "45 minute strike from Saddam's Nukes". We can even thank the advance israeli intelligence for the "yellow cake" debacle.

Without the superior information from the israeli's we wouldn't have had the knowledge to properly handle Saddam and Iraq like we have.

We should really only thank our dear ally for the information and send them more money to further the only democracy in the middle east.

They have even been gracious enough to supply all the information needed to attack Iran, the world would be so stupid without their valued base of misinformation and outright LIES!!

[djed]

Originally posted by gingerballs


I'm not anti-semtic, but you have to be a fucking blind man to not see that the upper Jewish crust has been playing the fucking world for hundreds of years.

We have been infiltrated at our upper levels by our Israeli "friends" and have been their fucking puppet against the Arab nations for a long time.




ok, so basically every culture has an upper crust exploiting its lower class, not just the jews, and second, i would say america and its allies are exploiting isreal because most of the isreali government is fueled by fundamental zealots who will fight for their religion against islam which is obviously not as freinds and close to usa and allies commercial interests and culture. so i do not think he jews are playing the world, but rather commecial interests are exploting the jews religious fundamental attitude towards opposing religions that are not as close to our own.

[djed]

Originally posted by gingerballs
Point officially missed.

yeah. lol

[djed]

Originally posted by Cethe
#1 - I'd disagree...for 3-5000 years there's been a huge land ownership debate in that lil sandbox... aka "the holy land"


agreed, but history is still relevent, but at this point, you could just argue the whole khazar issue and that jews are not from the middle east anyhow

#2 - that's what the major problem is. no one can accept blame, and no one can agree on who should.


so they will just kill each other until one is gone. and no one is going to do anything.

[Cethe]

Originally posted by djed
so they will just kill each other until one is gone. and no one is going to do anything.


sure we can keep sending our citizens over there & get 'em killed if we want. edit: oh wait...when we take sides we're just pissing off the rest of the involved parties...any left are just gonna come after us...
uh ohh...too late.

but extreme religious hatred and centuries of hate will not be erased unless ALL INVOLVED just move on already

[B_tech]

I suppose one good thing to come of is is that Israel is predominantly secular; only a small portion of the population is zealously religious. From what I've read, the influence the settler movement and orthoox have on the knesset is dwindling, so maybe they'll start moving those crazy fucks back to cities behind the 48 line.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by B_tech
I suppose one good thing to come of is is that Israel is predominantly secular; only a small portion of the population is zealously religious.


Yes indeed, yet the entire premise of the eastern european ashkenazim who primarily inhabit the occupied territories is based on ancient biblical prophecy.

So we have a nearly 90% secular society, using religious fevor to take more land and displace the people living on it.


From what I've read, the influence the settler movement and orthoox have on the knesset is dwindling, so maybe they'll start moving those crazy fucks back to cities behind the 48 line.

I don't know about that Brandon, I might agree with you if Livni and Likud were looking good right now, but they are not. It is seemingly more and more like Netanyahu and his crazy settler crowd may take over the politics in israel in February.

The violence in the West Bank areas has significantly increased in the last few weeks. With settlers angry over getting removed per the israeli high court, have been returning and shooting the Palestinians and burning their houses.

As much as I despise Sharon (the butcher) even HE realized that the green line was the only solution. Now at the end of Olmert's term, he is taking a lot of slack for saying the same thing.

It just goes to show that when one is really in the position of power and they must review all options, a two state solution is the only viable one.

They are moving the crazy racist jews back behind the line, but it's causing alot of problems in israel because of it.

Obviously israel is not going anywhere, (unless they do something stupid like attack Iran, then they are finished) It is also obvious that the Palestinians are not going anywhere as they keep increasing in population. The world will not let the zionists continue to starve the Palestinians to death. enough is enough.

The israeli's simply will not win by racist apartheid domination as they currently practice. They cannot continue to flip their noses at the world with false promises of peace ad nausea. If they do not take it upon themselves to solve this in the next few years, the problem will be removed from them and solved by powers in the world who can and will solve it.

The final solution WILL BE a two state solution, either now or later!!

ps...you said "48 line" you mean "67" line. right?
before 48 there was no state of israel, the green line was determined in 1948 and violated in 1967.

[djed]

Originally posted by Cethe
sure we can keep sending our citizens over there & get 'em killed if we want. edit: oh wait...when we take sides we're just pissing off the rest of the involved parties...any left are just gonna come after us...
uh ohh...too late.

but extreme religious hatred and centuries of hate will not be erased unless ALL INVOLVED just move on already

i think religious zealots just need to realize all their religions are essentially the same.

[djed]

zionist just need to admit they are from middle asia anyways and get off this whole fixation on the holy land, i mean america just supports this nonesense because isreal is crazy enough to try to actually get controll of the middle east and since thats where the oil is and isreal has stronger ties than any other government there, we will contune to support them and sell them weapons at a discounted rate.

[burnt]

THEY ARE TEH CHOSEN ONES!!!11one

[Effendi]

Starvation of the Gazan people is precisely the outcome Israel wants.

Israel has been talking about a major military incursion into Gaza for some time now, and this is simply, and literally, "softening up" Gazan Palestinians for the kill.

What has to happen is two-fold: The UN must demand that emergency supplies be allowed through. If not, Israel must lose its member status in the UN.

Secondly, all foreign support of Israel, monetary and military, must come to a screeching halt until the above is accomplished.

That, the government of Israel will understand.

Unfortunately, the latter is about as likely to happen as pigs flying, because governmental leaders have been brainwashed to accept everything Israel does to Palestinians as "self-defense" (such as preventing sick infants from getting the medical care they need to live, and creating malnutrition in Palestinian kids).

[Effendi]

The Israeli navy barred on Sunday morning a ship which was supposed to sail from Jaffa port to the Gaza Strip carrying medical and humanitarian supplies. The ship was organized by Arab leaders and leftist activists in Israel, the Arabs48 news website reported.

The ship, was dubbed “the Eid Ship�, as the Muslims will be marking the Adha Eid (feast) on Monday. The Israeli navy took the ship to the Tel Aviv port, Arabs48 added.

The Israeli police said that the ship carried medical equipment and medicine, and that three activists were detained.

The ship had on board seven tons of humanitarian and medical aid, food and toys for children.

The Israeli police also detained and interrogated three activists from northern Israel after they arrived in Jaffa with a truck filled with equipment to ship to Gaza.

Arab members of the Knesset (MK), Jamal Zahalka and Wasel Taha, said that barring the ship from sailing to the improvised and hungry Gaza Strip “is an act against humanity�, and added that “we will make our strongest efforts to send aid ships to the Gaza Strip from different parts of the world.

Arab member of the Knesset, Mohammad Barakeh, said that “it seems that Israel is giving the settlers a free hand in Hebron while besieging more than 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip�.

He added that the ship was a symbolic and humanitarian act carried out by Arabs and Jews, “but it seems that the Israeli authorities insist to show their true ugly colors�, he added.

On Sunday morning at approximately 9:30, Arab leaders in Israel held a press conference condemning the Israeli violation. Barakeh, Arab MK Jamal Zahalka, Sheikh Raed Salah of the northern branch of the Islamic movement, MK Barakeh, and Archbishop Atallah Hanna, spoke at the conference and slammed the Israeli violation.

Zahalka said that “the person who steals the smile from children’s faces on the day of the feast is a criminal�. He voiced an appeal to the Arab world and to the international community to send hundreds of aid ships to Gaza in order to break the unjust Israeli siege.

“Israel is using tanks and war-jets in shelling Gaza, if there should be siege, it should be imposed on Israel�, Zahalaka stated, what Israel is doing in Gaza is a war crime, and what we are doing is simply fighting crime.

Source (http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/eid-ship-hijacked-by-israeli-navy/)

[djed]

Originally posted by burnt
THEY ARE TEH CHOSEN ONES!!!11one

oh man nothing pisses me off about the jewish religion then the whole chosen race of gad crap

[Cethe]

Originally posted by djed
i think religious zealots just need to realize all their religions are essentially the same.


OMG FER REALZ!!!

seriously though...i totally saw that at about 14, just before my eagle scout board of review...i was figuring out how i was going to answer the whole religion question when it came up.

kinda irritates me that people can't be rational. "you call him god, that's neat, we call her gaia...oh you named him allah, very interesting..."

no..."WE ARE TEH BEST ALL OTHERS ARE LOSERS AND MUST DIE!!!" seems really assinine to me.

[budaho]

Originally posted by B_tech
Prima facia, yes, it is an apartheid state. But there's a dynamic that Europeans and Americans just can't seem to wrap their pea brains around: Arabs don't want to live with Jews; the segregation is due partially to physical limitations, but also because you're trying to mix two diametrially different societies together. It's similar to the integration of blacks into 'white' American culture; many blacks didn't WANT to be integrated... they had no trust for whites and wanted to do their own thing (many blacks are still of that view). If you expect to *poof* one day have harmony and Arabs living nextdoor to Jews and being part of their communities, you're in for a long wait. The two have hated each other for 2000+ years.


i gotta disagree with that. they aren't diametrically opposed societies or cultures. they are two remarkably similar branches of the same faith.

and i think you've got the time period backwards. jews and arabs got along great for about 2000 years, until the allied powers created an artificial jewish majority in the region under whose rule the muslims were then expected to live.

why should integrating have to involve giving up your culture? i think people understand that dynamic perfectly well. both US blacks, and israeli arabs have a right to live with their own culture, and to not be discriminated against for it.

[djed]

Originally posted by budaho
jews and arabs got along great for about 2000 years, until the allied powers created an artificial jewish majority in the region under whose rule the muslims were then expected to live.



yea jews were in isreal way before telaviv and chain wiesman, so i think its the herlz type zionist jews who pissed the arabs off, plus, its really that the jews who were in isreal for years back were just farmers and villagers, not the commecialized culture it has become since the balfour declaration.

still, the jews who were already in isreal had prob been there for quite some time, whearas the arabs, abd prob being correct, say that the current wave of jews are ashkanazi and therefore decendent from the khazars, a mongal offshoot race, not like the sephardic jews, who were the ones who were already there. (spelling errors)

[Plerr]

Originally posted by seattle science
It's basically a massive case of player hating.

One group turns sand into prosperity w/ cooperation and smart logistical planning, while the other group can't accomplish a damn thing. Of course they're going to hate on the successful one. Human nature.

Israel has turned “sand” into prosperity in largely the same way that the United States converted the deserts of Nevada into a metropolitan business/leisure center – which is:

1. The oppression and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous populations

2. The denial of the indigenous populations to rights over the waterways that historically sustained them.

3. The utilization of extremely harmful irrigation practices, that have completely devastated the ecosystems around the Jordan, and Colorado rivers respectively

The consequences of this for the Palestinians are profound. Israel uses 80% of Palestinian ground water for itself, and literally denies Palestinians utilization of the Jordan river. The irrigation has come at a cost to their crops, and the arable land that once relied on the water which Israel takes/denies the Palestinians.

It’s not “player hating” – it’s systematic and dramatic oppression. The Palestinians live under conditions that make prosperity (literally) impossible.



Originally posted by Cethe
#1 - I'd disagree...for 3-5000 years there's been a huge land ownership debate in that lil sandbox... aka "the holy land" .... it's not gonna stop until religion stops.

There are standards which we can hold the claims of legitimacy too, it’s not very difficult. We just have to articulate what those standards are.

#2 - that's what the major problem is. no one can accept blame, and no one can agree on who should.
imo, the only soltion is to just STOP. Live in pease & worry less about what beliefs your neighbor holds. The world is too small to continue this endless war.

Unfortunately – Israel doesn’t want to stop. The public may, in fact we know they do. The government simply isn’t heeding public opinion.



Originally posted by B_tech
Regardless of how you disapprove of the creation of the nation, the land was purchased and the UN backed the creation of the country.

1. At the time the UN Partition Assembly voted on Res. 181, Jews owned less than 8% of the land. And comprised just 37% of the population. But were to be awarded 55% of the land. Where you get this notion that all the land was bought is beyond me. It’s not accurate.

2. The Palestinian population never agreed to or supported the partition, and the Jewish population ignored the resolution – disregarded it – just as soon as it looked as if they could conquer more territory than the resolution would have granted them.
2a. Israel’s current borders are well beyond what 181 supported. And Israel’s borders today, exist in a condition of perpetual violation of UN mandate. More over Israel has been targeted by more than 65 UN resolutions concerning it’s violations of human rights and violations of international legal norms.

3. Because Israel flagrantly ignores UN resolutions (including the resolution concerning the creation of Israel) the argument by Israel and it’s supporters that Res. 181 ought to be respected - is fundamentally, and provably hypocritical.

If we are to negate the legitimacy of a nation based on how unpopular is is, then very few nations, including our own, would exist.

The question over whether or not Israel ought to exist is secondary to questions concerning the occupation, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories. Just as the sovereignty of South Africa was secondary to the liberation of the oppressed and terrorized majority.


Then stop being one-sided and conceed that there is blame laid on BOTH sides.

There’s nothing to concede.

Israel’s occupations, aggressions, and oppressions are not anyone’s fault but Israel’s. Israel isn’t acting out of self-defense, it’s acting on an imperialist agenda.

Like belligerent imperialists before it – Israel utilizes the violent reactions of the people it is oppressing as leverage to maintain and pursue it’s aggressions.

A concession would only be in order if I supported Palestinian attacks against civilians, but I don’t. I don’t support them for the same reason I don’t support Israel’s terrorism.
The most meaningful difference between Palestinian and Israeli terrorism, is that Israel’s terrorism has killed and maimed aprox. seven times as many people as Palestinian terrorism has (since 2000). Another exception is that Israel’s terrorism isn’t just limited to terror attacks against civilians, but is also characterized by one of the most brutal and violent (on a day-to-day basis, not including fatalities) apartheid systems/military occupations in modern times.


It’s you who ought to concede the following:

1. Israel is the primary purveyor of terrorism in the region, and is not acting out of self-defense (but rather aggression)

2. The terrorism of Palestinian groups – while unjustified – is a reaction to Israeli aggression. Not vise versa.

3. Terrorism is a choice, neither Palestinians nor Israel are forced to engage in it.


Prima facia, yes, it is an apartheid state. But there's a dynamic that Europeans and Americans just can't seem to wrap their pea brains around: Arabs don't want to live with Jews; the segregation is due partially to physical limitations, but also because you're trying to mix two diametrially different societies together.

No one is talking about a one-state solution.

I’m talking about the apartheid that Israel has subjected the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza too for the last 41 years.

It is one of the longest military occupations in modern times, and also among the most brutal and inhumane. There is zero justification for it, it is purely a manifestation of aggression.


The two have hated each other for 2000+ years.

This is simply not true, arab-jewish enmity is a fairly recent development. For centuries Hebrews and Arabs lived in the region in relative peace and harmony.
Prior to the 1930’s and even into the late 40’s the two groups were very interconnected, and lived often times in mixed-communities without incidents or distain.

What violence there was prior to 1930’s-40’s was infrequent and small.

Your opinion to the contrary is an assumption, that you’ve no doubt gleamed from the perpetual insinuation of historical and deep enmity that our culture projects.

Again, it takes two to tango... for any peace to exist BOTH sides have to be willing to make sacrafices. You seem to want to lay the blame all on the Israelis, which is biased and unfair.

Once again you’ve assumed incorrectly that Palestinians haven’t already agreed to make sacrifices.

The peace process, and it’s failure to move forward is solely a consequence of Israel’s refusal to participate. Solely a product of Israel’s refusal to accept 1967 borders – solely a product of Israel’s desire for expansion over peace.

I explained in a post earlier that:

1. The Saudi Proposal has been accepted by every major Palestinian political entity
2. It is supported by the majority of Israelis, Palestinians, Americans, and Arab-states (populations and leaders).

3. An open invitation for serious talks and subsequent cease-fires has been extended to Israel by Fatah and Hamas – and it is Israel that refused to engage.

4. It’s not that I’m biased against Israel, it’s that you haven’t done your research. Your comments in this thread have consistently demonstrated a lack of interest in the subject. If you some day have enough interest to explore the history and events that have taken/are taking place, to read a few scholarly accounts i.e. books (rather than say, skimming googled articles) - you might agree with me, or Benny Morris, or Noam Chomsky, or Uri Avenry…
I don’t mean to come off as some holier-than-thou elitist, or offend you – there's no real good way to say: for the record, it’s evident to anyone who has researched this topic - that you haven’t. So please don’t call me “biased” before you’ve put more time into it.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by djed
ok, so basically every culture has an upper crust exploiting its lower class, not just the jews, and second, i would say america and its allies are exploiting isreal because most of the isreali government is fueled by fundamental zealots who will fight for their religion against islam which is obviously not as freinds and close to usa and allies commercial interests and culture. so i do not think he jews are playing the world, but rather commecial interests are exploting the jews religious fundamental attitude towards opposing religions that are not as close to our own.

The Jewish upper crust doesn't just exploit its lower classes, but all people. They control many many things in the private and government sectors. Just like the Jewish bankers who funded the Germans in WWI.

Also what basis do you have for saying that anyone is exploiting the Jewish religon? I don't see them getting a very raw deal.

[djed]

Originally posted by gingerballs
The Jewish upper crust doesn't just exploit its lower classes, but all people. They control many many things in the private and government sectors. Just like the Jewish bankers who funded the Germans in WWI.

Also what basis do you have for saying that anyone is exploiting the Jewish religon? I don't see them getting a very raw deal.

yea, lay off the anti semetic propaganda. just think about this, the jews and arabs hate each other, usa wants controll over middle east, but is not crazy enough to create an american state over there, so they give isreal a ton of money and weapons to do so, and its not just jewish bankers ! their are several races of international bankers, the thing is people try to say its all the jews, but im saying no, just think about it, its people who are rich and want controll of the oil region, they will support isreal because isreal is closer to western culture than islam, simple as that, and yes the regular jew is getting fucked, they gotta deal with this whole situation like the rest of us, its not like every jew is a blood thirsty zionist, next the rich jews did exploit the lower class in germany when ricvh jews refused to pay germans money to provide the poor jews with a way of leaving germany, they totally screwed over their lower class during ww2, look up 10 questions to zionist at truetorahjews.com

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by HexRei
Why make insinuations when you can just say what you mean outright?

I thought I was saying what I meant.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by djed
yea, lay off the anti semetic propaganda. just think about this, the jews and arabs hate each other, usa wants controll over middle east, but is not crazy enough to create an american state over there, so they give isreal a ton of money and weapons to do so, and its not just jewish bankers ! their are several races of international bankers, the thing is people try to say its all the jews, but im saying no, just think about it, its people who are rich and want controll of the oil region, they will support isreal because isreal is closer to western culture than islam, simple as that, and yes the regular jew is getting fucked, they gotta deal with this whole situation like the rest of us, its not like every jew is a blood thirsty zionist, next the rich jews did exploit the lower class in germany when ricvh jews refused to pay germans money to provide the poor jews with a way of leaving germany, they totally screwed over their lower class during ww2, look up 10 questions to zionist at truetorahjews.com

I really don't think you read what I post. I'm starting to think are responding to things you wish I was saying.

When I was talking about the "jewish bankers" I was talking about the ones in Germany during WWI that helped finance and support the War on the German end, creating much hate for them in Germany after they lost.

anti semetic propaganda? lol ok. More like fact based truth. Don't put that blanket on what I'm I've been saying. I've clearly not been talking about all jews on a whole.

I never said "ITS ALL THE JEWS". I'm simply placing blame where it should have and should be currently placed.

Isreal has been fighting this war for a long long long time. We are like the friend who showed up to egg them on.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr

This is simply not true, arab-jewish enmity is a fairly recent development. For centuries Hebrews and Arabs lived in the region in relative peace and harmony.
Prior to the 1930’s and even into the late 40’s the two groups were very interconnected, and lived often times in mixed-communities without incidents or distain.

I'm not going to bother responding to all that you have to say.. but to say this and then claim that I don't do my research... well, that's comical.

You clearly have no clue about how Jews were treated by Arabs after the Arab conquests and then treated as lower-class citizens in Arab nations in the past few hundred years. Yes, it's true that the fervent hatred and desire to KILL Jews didn't really become previlent/common until 1948, Arabs have disliked, but put up with them (and taxed them higher)far before then.
You can quote Chomsky and his bigoted, longwinded books all you want, but you won't ever be correct in placing all the blame on Israel.. as you continue to do.

[djed]

Originally posted by gingerballs
I really don't think you read what I post. I'm starting to think are responding to things you wish I was saying.

When I was talking about the "jewish bankers" I was talking about the ones in Germany during WWI that helped finance and support the War on the German end, creating much hate for them in Germany after they lost.

anti semetic propaganda? lol ok. More like fact based truth. Don't put that blanket on what I'm I've been saying. I've clearly not been talking about all jews on a whole.

I never said "ITS ALL THE JEWS". I'm simply placing blame where it should have and should be currently placed.

Isreal has been fighting this war for a long long long time. We are like the friend who showed up to egg them on.

ok exaclty, "the freind who showed up to egg them on" is exactly what i meant. in blog its hard to say things that you could write a book about in a few minutes, ya know. and yea, for sure, its hard for most people to beleive that the banker jews and zionists helped fund the nazis, but yeah i have seen the documentaries and read articles about it, so yea, it seems thats what happened, but check out that website truetorahjews if you have not already, its a great resource for this type of info from rabbis themselves. but your previous post sounded like you had been reading alot of antijew stuff.

[djed]

so i was going to start a new thread for this, but dont really feel like it now, so im hoping people will discuss, but yea

so has anyone read aurther koelsers the 13th tribe about the mass khazar conversion to judism in the middle ages ?

its a very good book, should look it over and take into consideration about the whole isreal situation.

but for the arabs is a major thing, how can jews claim they deserve isreal when most of them a decendent from a mongal race that was forced to convert to judism ?

so i have asked several different jewish freinds ive had about it and i seemed to get 3 different responces

1. that is not true all jews decended from isreal, that whole khazar thing is a lie.

2. they agree that ashkanazi jews are decended from khazars, but they are a sephardic jew, and therefore decended from isreal

3. they have never heard of the khazars and act like im just making this stuff up, even though i can credit my sources to a respected author

so in case you dont know any of this stuff just look up the 13th tribe, and research the author, arther koeslter, and see that it is not just some conspiracy theorist. lots of mis-spelling, sorry.

[djed]

so correct spelling is: arthur koestler

[Effendi]

Originally posted by djed
yea, lay off the anti semetic propaganda.

Anytime the truth is mentioned, it's always sidelined by someone who screams anti-semite..

An Anti-Semite is Not someone who hates jews, it's someone the jews hate!!

just think about this, the jews and arabs hate each other,

Bullshit!! They lived together peacefully for thousands of years.

usa wants controll over middle east,

No we don't, The zionists want control over the middles east and have used dual citizen in the United States who are zionists to intentionally project that israel's interests are America's interests. We want access to the oil, sure, but it would be a whole lot cheaper to buy it from them like we always have rather than try to nation building.

but is not crazy enough to create an american state over there, so they give isreal a ton of money and weapons to do so,

Geez dude, I don't know ANY Patriotic Americans that think we should give more American money or lives to those shitheads. It's AIPAC and other israeli lobbies operating on American soil that redirect OUR MONEY.

and its not just jewish bankers

Yes it is dude, Give me the name of 10 NON-Jewish bankers...hmmm...Rothschild's...no their jews. They are ALL jews.

their are several races of international bankers

Right, there are German jews, Russian Oliarchs, American zionists, they are ALL jews dude. Please give me the names of some non-jewish "international bankers".

the thing is people try to say its all the jews, but im saying no,

Of course you say no, you don't know shit!!

just think about it, its people who are rich and want controll of the oil region, they will support isreal because isreal is closer to western culture than islam,

O you mean like Saudi Arabia, Iran and the rest of the OPEC countries that produce 95% of the worlds oil? Yea, those are the guys that support israel.

simple as that, and yes the regular jew is getting fucked, they gotta deal with this whole situation like the rest of us, its not like every jew is a blood thirsty zionist,

Yea, show me a jew who isn't a zionist?
There are jews against zionism, but show me a jew on this board or that you know that doesn't support the racist apartheid state. There are American FIRST jews who call the zionist state what it is, but MOST of the run of the mill jews support the zionist state.

next the rich jews did exploit the lower class in germany when ricvh jews refused to pay germans money to provide the poor jews with a way of leaving germany, they totally screwed over their lower class during ww2, look up 10 questions to zionist at truetorahjews.com

Yea, bet you get a true history at a site like that.

I don't mean to be rude to you man, but I'm so sick of people reading a little and thinking they have it nailed.

It's uninformed people who make excuses for the traitors to America that allow them the latitude to create the evil they create.

Are ALL jews evil? of course not, a person is judged by the choices they make and the content of their heart. The bravest men in the world are jews like Uri Avnery and Noam Chompsky who risk their lives to say and do the right thing.

There is NO EXCUSE for any human to defend the evil of the zionist. They always twist things back around to be the fault of the Arab DESPITE the fact that before the racist apartheid state, jews and Arabs lived peacefully together for thousands of years.

It will be that way again in the future as the world finally tires of and isolates the violence and death hat are the hallmark of the zionist.

Palestine will eventually be the land of the Palestinians as it has been for 2,000 years. zionism will fade into history as a word that leaves a nasty taste in your mouth just like "Nazi".

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
I'm not going to bother responding to all that you have to say

Convenient. That must have saved time.



You clearly have no clue about how Jews were treated by Arabs after the Arab conquests and then treated as lower-class citizens in Arab nations in the past few hundred years. Yes, it's true that the fervent hatred and desire to KILL Jews didn't really become previlent/common until 1948, Arabs have disliked, but put up with them (and taxed them higher)far before then.

This tirade would only make sense if I had claimed that Jewish/Arab relationships were something other than good “by comparison”.


You can quote Chomsky and his bigoted, longwinded books all you want, but you won't ever be correct in placing all the blame on Israel.. as you continue to do.

Bigoted? Longwinded? I suppose you’ve never read Chomsky either, have you? He’s Jewish/Hebrew you know…

I’m interesting in hearing your explanation, as to whom it is Chomsky is a bigot against.

[Effendi]

Of course Chomsky is a bigot to a zionist, if he weren't jewish he's definitely be an "Anti-Semite". Lord knows many of the people that quote Chomsky certainly earn the title.

You know I got nothing but love for you Brandon but you have never read Chomsky my friend. Tell me I'm wrong.

For anyone who isn't familiar with him:

Noam Chomsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chompsky)

[gingerballs]

Where is a Neo-Hitler when you need him. I KEED I KEED

and I really don't care if I come off as a anti-semite. That label lost all value once it started getting put on anyone who wasn't gun hoe about the Zionist actions.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr
Bigoted? Longwinded? I suppose you’ve never read Chomsky either, have you? He’s Jewish/Hebrew you know…

I'm WELL aware of who Chomsky is. I was forced to read some of his blather for a sociology class... can't think of the name, but it's still at home in a box. He, like Effendi and Plerr, believes that the creation of the state is 'wrong', so therefore anything and everything the nation does is, by proxy, 'wrong'. So yes, he is bigotted... he claims or feels that the 6 million people living in Israel are all zionists and therefore evil and he REFUSES to conceed that the majority of the population is secular and not zionist; they are more than happy to revert to the previous borders. He demonizes everyone that lives in the country as evil-doers and refuses to accept the notion that the P.A. is equally at fault for any failure in peace talks. Basically, he and both of you assume that people who were born or live there are 'zionists', when Zionism is a political and religious movement... unless they say "Israel is the home of Jews as ordained by G-d", they aren't zionists. Again, Israel should never have been formed, so everything they do is wrong, is his mantra.

He, like you both, refuses to be a realist and accept that Israel is a nation and will be a nation. Whether they were founded 'right' or 'wrong', they are a nation. At some point, you need to accept that people living there are NOT zionists... they are just people who were born and live there. Unless they're in the settler movement and envoke the religious basis for the nation, they are NOT zionists!

He's a posterchild for you anti-zionists, because he's a Jew and against Zionism.. hey, that's win win! But he's not a realist, so those who see it takes two to tango dismiss his bullshit and prose.

[seattle science]

All of y'all need to shut the fuck up and join the Haj. You're too busy getting stoned, when you should be stoning the devil.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by B_tech
He, like you both, refuses to be a realist and accept that Israel is a nation and will be a nation. Whether they were founded 'right' or 'wrong', they are a nation. At some point, you need to accept that people living there are NOT zionists... they are just people who were born and live there. Unless they're in the settler movement and envoke the religious basis for the nation, they are NOT zionists!

Wait, but don't the people support what their government is doing? Are they in the streets protesting or does the majority support or at the very least turn a blind eye to what is going on.

Just because you were born into something doesn't clear you of all guilt if you choose to go along with it.

The fact that people accept Israel as a Nation isn't realistic, its a bought and paid for point of view.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
I'm WELL aware of who Chomsky is. I was forced to read some of his blather for a sociology class... can't think of the name, but it's still at home in a box.

That sounds "well aware" to me.
He, like Effendi and Plerr, believes that the creation of the state is 'wrong', so therefore anything and everything the nation does is, by proxy, 'wrong'. So yes, he is bigotted...

1. I oppose the existence of any/all states. Are you suggesting I'm a bigot against the whole of humanity?

2. If you ever decide to read Chomsky, you'll discover that Chomsky had (for decades) advocated a bi-national solution. But as events changed, he has come to advocate a two-state solution. Not because he prefers it, but becuase it feels it is the most practical means to end the occupation/conflict.

3.Explain why opposing the creation of a state is biggoted.

3. Do you consider the Hassidic sects that are opposed to the creation/existence of Israel to be bigoted as well?

4. You realize that Chomsky is himself Jewish/Hebrew, right?


he claims or feels that the 6 million people living in Israel are all zionists and therefore evil and he REFUSES to conceed that the majority of the population is secular and not zionist; they are more than happy to revert to the previous borders.

You just made that up.

Noam Chomsky perpetually notes that pre-June 1967 borders are supported by a majority in Israel (and internationally)

re:

A two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus is already acceptable to a very broad range of Israeli opinion -- including, incidentally, extreme hawks, who are so concerned by the "demographic problem" that they are even advancing the (outrageous) proposal to transfer areas of dense Arab settlement within Israel to a new Palestinian state. And one can easily understand why it is acceptable, just as it has been to virtually the entire world since the 1970s -- including a considerable majority of the American population.

He demonizes everyone that lives in the country as evil-doers and refuses to accept the notion that the P.A. is equally at fault for any failure in peace talks. Basically, he and both of you assume that people who were born or live there are 'zionists', when Zionism is a political and religious movement... unless they say "Israel is the home of Jews as ordained by G-d", they aren't zionists. Again, Israel should never have been formed, so everything they do is wrong, is his mantra.

Neither I, nor Chomsky has ever equated the people of Israel to "evil-doers" or anything even remotely similar to that. Nor have I ever offered a definition of Zionism in this chat room.

What an insane comment.



He, like you both, refuses to be a realist and accept that Israel is a nation and will be a nation.

Both I, and Chomsky recognize that Israel is a nation - and will be one for some time.


Whether they were founded 'right' or 'wrong', they are a nation. At some point, you need to accept that people living there are NOT zionists... they are just people who were born and live there. Unless they're in the settler movement and envoke the religious basis for the nation, they are NOT zionists!

I don't think I've ever mentioned the word "zionist" on NWTekno. If I have, I was probably quoting someone.

Nevermind ever accusing everyone living in Israel of being zionists.

He's a posterchild for you anti-zionists, because he's a Jew and against Zionism.. hey, that's win win! But he's not a realist, so those who see it takes two to tango dismiss his bullshit and prose.

You've evidently never even read Chomsky.

What the fuk makes you think you can just lie on a public forum - and get away with it?

I guess I don't need to say anything about your intellectual integrity - that you haven't already.

lame.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by gingerballs
Wait, but don't the people support what their government is doing? Are they in the streets protesting or does the majority support or at the very least turn a blind eye to what is going on.

Just because you were born into something doesn't clear you of all guilt if you choose to go along with it.

The fact that people accept Israel as a Nation isn't realistic, its a bought and paid for point of view.
You mean like you and I as Americans and what our government is doing? So you're accepting guilt and blame for what your government is doing in Iraq?

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr
1. I oppose the existence of any/all states. Are you suggesting I'm a bigot against the whole of humanity?
Exactly, you're against all nations... so what is the point in you blathering on about how Israel is evil when the notion of a 'two state' solution goes against your ideals?

4. You realize that Chomsky is himself Jewish/Hebrew, right?
Uhhh yea. That's why I made the last comment I did. He's your shining hero as a Jew that's against Zionism.


Noam Chomsky perpetually notes that pre-June 1967 borders are supported by a majority in Israel (and internationally)
Well, that wasn't the statement made in the book I read of his. Looks like there's a piece of him that's in touch with reality afterall.


Neither I, nor Chomsky has ever equated the people of Israel to "evil-doers" or anything even remotely similar to that. Nor have I ever offered a definition of Zionism in this chat room.
He most certainly does by proxy, if not in direct words.


What the fuk makes you think you can just lie on a public forum - and get away with it? /[quote]
That's not a lie, that's an opinion-based statement. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then you have more issues than I, sir.

[quote]I guess I don't need to say anything about your intellectual integrity - that you haven't already.

Hello Pot? This is Kettle. You're black.

[burnt]

Originally posted by Plerr

What the fuk makes you think you can just lie on a public forum - and get away with it?

lol awesome.

TEH INTERNET IS SRSZ BIZNESZZZ

http://www.vorkt.com/album/data/1/normal_Internet-SeriousBusiness.jpg

[Plerr]

Originally posted by B_tech
Exactly, you're against all nations... so what is the point in you blathering on about how Israel is evil when the notion of a 'two state' solution goes against your ideals?

You keep attributing the word "evil" to me - have I used it?

As for my ideals, my primary concern is the end of the military occupation and apartheid.


Well, that wasn't the statement made in the book I read of his. Looks like there's a piece of him that's in touch with reality afterall.

I'm calling bullshit. You can't even remeber the title of the book. I don't think you even read it, as demonstrated by your profoundly misinformed opinions on the man.

To then go on, and make allegations of inpragmaticism is just childish. I've read Chosmky - there's no point in lying - no point in fronting.




He most certainly does by proxy, if not in direct words.

He doesn't in any way/shape/form. And I challenge you to find a quote or paragraph from his writing where he's ever said anything remotley close to your baseless allegation.



Hello Pot? This is Kettle. You're black.

I've read many books on the Israel/Palestine/Arab conflicts. I doubt you've read a solitary page, from one book dedicated to the topic.

I've literally read (unless I've missed a few, which could be...) every one of Noam Chomsky's major works. You claim to once have read a book, that you can't remember.

You think that just accusing me of the same baseless bullshit you're guilty of makes me a pot to your kettle?

for shit's sake. You can have the last word. This is bullshit.

You're a goddamn liar - and you know it. Have a little integrity/self-respect.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by burnt
lol awesome.

TEH INTERNET IS SRSZ BIZNESZZZ

http://www.vorkt.com/album/data/1/normal_Internet-SeriousBusiness.jpg


Not because it's serious business. But because the lie can't be taken back. it's posted permanently (barring an edit)

:rolleyes:

[burnt]

I like a lot of Chomsky's ideas but he openly supports communism and I can't advocate that.

[seattle science]

Originally posted by B_tech
you're against all nations... so what is the point in you blathering on about how Israel is evil when the notion of a 'two state' solution goes against your ideals?


LOL

[seattle science]

Originally posted by Plerr
Not because it's serious business. But because the lie can't be taken back. it's posted permanently (barring an edit)

:rolleyes:

Totally. What we need is some kind of interweb Truth Squad -- an e-police force, charged with censoring and/or approving of any public speech.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by burnt
I like a lot of Chomsky's ideas but he openly supports communism and I can't advocate that.

Chomsky is an anarcho-syndicalist.

I'll bet you know everything there is to know about communism too don't you?

[Plerr]

Originally posted by seattle science
Totally. What we need is some kind of interweb Truth Squad -- an e-police force, charged with censoring and/or approving of any public speech.


fascist. :p

[burnt]

oh come on.
seriously.

whats the difference between embracing anarchy and embracing communism. besides I'm pretty sure he's a member of the American Communist Party.

[burnt]

see, here's Hugo Chavez, dictator of Venezuela holding one of Chomsky's books. Chavez is a communist, and communists only support other communists.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Hugo-Chavez_Chomsky.jpg

[Effendi]

"Israel cannot accept Hamas rule in Gaza, and therefore from the strategic point of view we need to focus on what is happening there," israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni


Never mind that HAMAS was elected, right?


israeli Foreign Minister, Tzipi Livni, stated on Wednesday that the Israeli army should carry a large-scaled military offensive in the Gaza Strip in retaliation for what she described as "the violation of the truce".

On the ground, Israel already violated the truce, carried offensives, killed, wounded and kidnapped Palestinians, and kept the border crossings sealed in spite that the truce states that Israel should open the border terminals.

Yet, Livni said that Israel must make it clear to Hamas that it is responsible for the deterioration of the situation.


So the Palestinians people, democratically elect Hamas who clearly has their best interest in mind. israel doesn't like Hamas and so simply refuses to recognize them.

And you wonder why Civilized states like Iran refuse to recognize the racist apartheid state.

It's different when the brave zionists shoot women and children in the streets of Palestine as they go about their lives.

May the honorably Seyid Sheikh Hassan Narallah, on his honor as a proud Persian and the leader of Hezbollah, (The party of God) Deliver to Dimona and Tel Aviv that what it has earned.

I too am Seyid, although not a Muslim. My Grandfather and Great Grandfather wore the Black Turbin of the Seyid. I would PROUDLY fight under the Sheikh and deliver the blow that wipes the remnants of the zionists into the pages of history and returns Palestine to it's peaceful inhabitants, including peaceful jewish farmers.

Not if, WHEN!!

As far as America is concerned, Our voice is quickly fading.
Thanks to the betrayal of the Neo-Conservatives in American government we are finished. No one in the world respects us thanks to israel and no one fears us anymore. As fat lazy arrogant Americans, we have forgotten how to build our own products and take care of ourselves.

Hitler's "Thousand Year Reich" lasted just 12 years.
The "New American Century" looks to have lasted just 8.

[seattle science]

Originally posted by Plerr
fascist. :p

Exactly. :)

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Plerr
for shit's sake. You can have the last word. This is bullshit.

You're a goddamn liar - and you know it. Have a little integrity/self-respect.
I read that book for a class 6 years ago... you think I hung onto every word written? Would YOU hang onto every word written in a book you didn't care for, oh magnanimous one?

So now look who's spouting lies on a public messageboard. Not only that, you stooped to libel. tsk tsk. Obviously, I got you fired up enough to start personal attacks... and you want to talk personal integrity?

Hello, Pot?

:rolleyes:

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Plerr
for shit's sake. This is bullshit.

You're a goddamn liar - and you know it. Have a little integrity/self-respect.

Good luck with that, he is a zionist jew, you're a filthy goyim, (along with most of the rest of us) he has the right (according to jewish law) to lie to you, buy you, sell you, steal from you and rape your wife if he wants to. Not even the Nazi's were allowed that latitude. And that law has been observed and followed for 3,000 years or more.

There is no integrity or self respect in the heart of a zionist, he believes that God has ordained him ruler over the dumb cattle of the earth.

You are an honorable man Plerr, who calls the world the way you see it. Your attempts at logic with a zionist will ALWAYS result in awe at their self endorsed double standard. There position doesn't make sense, hasn't made sense and never could make sense. I accepted this fact many years ago and respond accordingly.

You would get more honesty from an Eight-ball than a zionist, it is their obligation to lie, in support of their failed racist apartheid pogroms, at least the eight-ball could only be wrong 50% of the time.

But thanks for helping clarify the position of logic and for allowing others to observe the position of the zionist. People aren't stupid, and anyone who cares enough to really find the truth, (if smart enough) comes to the conclusion you have eventually.

Thank You!!

[Cethe]

Originally posted by B_tech
Pot?


yes please.
this thread needs a pow wow, imo.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by B_tech
You mean like you and I as Americans and what our government is doing? So you're accepting guilt and blame for what your government is doing in Iraq?

Yes. We voted them in, we allowed them to go to War and we do not over throw our clearly corrupt government.

We as a people are to blame for ALL of our problems.

[Effendi]

http://blog.redfin.com/orangecounty/files/2007/12/clapping-hands.gif

ALL Americans are to blame for allowing the hijacking of our government.

We are all to blame for allowing FEAR to remove and control our civil Liberties.

Because of our fear and our complacency, America is Lost and will never return to the power we once were.

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by burnt
oh come on.
seriously.

whats the difference between embracing anarchy and embracing communism. besides I'm pretty sure he's a member of the American Communist Party.

You say you aren't for Chomsky because is supposedly a communist (which he isn't) then show you have no idea what Communism is.

I say good day to you sir.

Originally posted by Effendi
http://blog.redfin.com/orangecounty/files/2007/12/clapping-hands.gif

ALL Americans are to blame for allowing the hijacking of our government.

We are all to blame for allowing FEAR to remove and control our civil Liberties.

Because of our fear and our complacency, America is Lost and will never return to the power we once were.

Wait, you just clapped for an "anti-Semite" YOU ANTI-SEMITE NON-REALIST!!!

[B_tech]

Originally posted by gingerballs
Yes. We voted them in, we allowed them to go to War and we do not over throw our clearly corrupt government.

We as a people are to blame for ALL of our problems.
Debatable, though interesting that you and others are in here ranting/discussing about how the US Govt needs to be removed from their power and all the crimes they have committed.

[Effendi]

.
It's the dual citizens like wolfowictz, peale, feith. kristol. krauthhammer, and the rest of the israeli firsters in high office that have sold out and betrayed America and should be shot.

The head of American homeland security Michael Chertoff is a zionist jew, with allegiance to the racist apartheid state first.

The head money man for the US Government, the comptroller dov zakeim is a zionist jew israeli firster.

One can simply not be surprised that this traitors destroyed America from within, in the best interest of israel.

It was israeli false intelligence that got us into Iraq.

ALL roads of terror and evil end at the feet of these men and their henchmen.

And these are just the men in KNOWN positions who OPENLY support israel before America and they are in control.

Just like a hundred times before in history, when a zionist gains control, the country dies within a few short years.

It's clear and simple for anyone who cares to know it, but apparently Americans just don't give a fuck, so there may well be to future for our children here.

[Andromeda.]

Originally posted by Effendi
http://blog.redfin.com/orangecounty/files/2007/12/clapping-hands.gif

ALL Americans are to blame for allowing the hijacking of our government.

We are all to blame for allowing FEAR to remove and control our civil Liberties.

i don't agree. i am NOT responsible for people who choose to wrap cloth around their heads to feel "safe".

i was born into the reagan era and couldn't vote during clinton's (meaning i was simply living in other people's majority choices with no voice of my own at that time), i didn't vote for bush dynasty, i consistently DO exercise my right to vote now that i can, i am vehemently anti patriot act (one of the worst things in recent history to be passed against americans), and i will give anyone an earful about government corruption at any time regardless of whether they'll take offense or not because i NEVER shut my mouth when i feel passoinate.

i'm sorry but from what i see, i'm already doing my part and i refuse to take the blame for any asshole that defends what's going on in the world today.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by burnt
see, here's Hugo Chavez, dictator of Venezuela holding one of Chomsky's books. Chavez is a communist, and communists only support other communists.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Hugo-Chavez_Chomsky.jpg


1. Chavez isn't a communist

2. he's not a dictator. He was democratically elected, and has not usurped the democratic process in Venezuela. Venezuela,for all intents and purposes is a vastly more democratic than the United States is, and Chavez (for all his faults...) less of a dictator than any US president in recent memory.

whats the difference between embracing anarchy and embracing communism. besides I'm pretty sure he's a member of the American Communist Party.

The differences are profound, where they exist.

Chomsky isn't a member of the CPUSA. He's an anarcho-syndicalist.

[djsence]

Pierr droppin' knowlege all over politics!

[HexRei]

Originally posted by djsence
Pierr droppin' knowlege all over politics!

who the fuck is pierr? we got a french guy here?

[Effendi]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
i don't agree. i am NOT responsible for people who choose to wrap cloth around their heads to feel "safe".

Sure you are, what did you do to stop the destruction of your country?

i was born into the reagan era and couldn't vote during clinton's (meaning i was simply living in other people's majority choices with no voice of my own at that time),

No problem Cat, Apparently ALL Americans (including myself) have legitimate reasons why we did "all we could" yet here we are. It wasn't enough!!

i didn't vote for bush dynasty, i consistently DO exercise my right to vote now that i can, i am vehemently anti patriot act (one of the worst things in recent history to be passed against americans), and i will give anyone an earful about government corruption at any time regardless of whether they'll take offense or not because i NEVER shut my mouth when i feel passoinate.

Ditto!!

Yet here we are. Americans with a destroyed America.

i'm sorry but from what i see, i'm already doing my part and i refuse to take the blame for any asshole that defends what's going on in the world today.

Well OK, if your satisfied that you have done all you can, yet the ship is still sinking, all you have to do is swim like the rest of us.

Listen, I know it's easier to feel like we have done all we can (collectively) yet we are in one hell of a pickle.

I should have sacrificed my life as an American Patriot 8 years ago and stopped what was starting before it consumed us.

The problem was I was that, even though I knew at the time what was coming, ( blogged incessantly about it, go back and check) I did NOTHING, and here we are. I had asked myself if a proper assassination would have helped or hurt America. Now we know what the consequences of doing nothing was.

I am MUCH more to blame than even you, for the current state of America, I had the training, ability, and the desire but did nothing. I kept telling myself that such a move would be more destructive then helpful to America and let my fear translate into doing Nothing.

Yes my dear, we ALL hold responsibility for allowing the crime to unfold and doing nothing to stop it.

I'm sorry!!

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
i don't agree. i am NOT responsible for people who choose to wrap cloth around their heads to feel "safe".

i was born into the reagan era and couldn't vote during clinton's (meaning i was simply living in other people's majority choices with no voice of my own at that time), i didn't vote for bush dynasty, i consistently DO exercise my right to vote now that i can, i am vehemently anti patriot act (one of the worst things in recent history to be passed against americans), and i will give anyone an earful about government corruption at any time regardless of whether they'll take offense or not because i NEVER shut my mouth when i feel passoinate.

i'm sorry but from what i see, i'm already doing my part and i refuse to take the blame for any asshole that defends what's going on in the world today.

So basiclly you vote in a corrupt system and talk about shit a lot.

Golf clap.


Originally posted by Effendi
.
It's the dual citizens like wolfowictz, peale, feith. kristol. krauthhammer, and the rest of the israeli firsters in high office that have sold out and betrayed America and should be shot.

The head of American homeland security Michael Chertoff is a zionist jew, with allegiance to the racist apartheid state first.

The head money man for the US Government, the comptroller dov zakeim is a zionist jew israeli firster.

One can simply not be surprised that this traitors destroyed America from within, in the best interest of israel.

It was israeli false intelligence that got us into Iraq.

ALL roads of terror and evil end at the feet of these men and their henchmen.

And these are just the men in KNOWN positions who OPENLY support israel before America and they are in control.

Just like a hundred times before in history, when a zionist gains control, the country dies within a few short years.

It's clear and simple for anyone who cares to know it, but apparently Americans just don't give a fuck, so there may well be to future for our children here.

QFT

Yeah it seems Jews who break our citizenship laws get high ranking government positions so they can break them on an even larger scale.

Mexicans who break the same laws get deported.

Maybe if the Nazis had killed a bunch of Mexicans we would cut them a break.

[seattle science]

Originally posted by gingerballs

Maybe if the Nazis had killed a bunch of Mexicans we would cut them a break.

Not possible.

That statement is dependent upon the rejected base claim that a "holocaust" actually occurred.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
i was born into the reagan era and couldn't vote during clinton's (meaning i was simply living in other people's majority choices with no voice of my own at that time), i didn't vote for bush dynasty, i consistently DO exercise my right to vote now that i can, i am vehemently anti patriot act (one of the worst things in recent history to be passed against americans), and i will give anyone an earful about government corruption at any time regardless of whether they'll take offense or not because i NEVER shut my mouth when i feel passoinate.

i'm sorry but from what i see, i'm already doing my part and i refuse to take the blame for any asshole that defends what's going on in the world today.


You think your social obligation ends at political discussions and voting?

While blame/culpability are subjective, value judgments – we can have our own standards with which we assign blame/fault etc.

I believe that blame is not an either/or paradigm, that it can be shared by many people in different degrees depending on their relationship to the subject.

My belief is that our society collectively is responsible for the crimes and atrocities our society engages in – but that our individual responsibility is diluted by the obstacles put before us that make action difficult, as well as the divisional culpability shared between three hundred million people.
Which is to say that while I feel we are ultimately responsible for the actions of our society, that blame does not surpass say: members of the Bush administration, Congress, The Military, Local government etc.

I disagree however, that our social obligations are met simply by voting, protesting, or voicing our opinions.

I believe that our individual responsibility is to do whatever we can, by any means necessary, to bring an end to the atrocities our society engages in, to defend ourselves, and defend others (without committing atrocities ourselves, of course).

It is incredibly difficult, and scary to meet that standard/responsibility of course. The penalties are very real, very serious, and severe. Long incarceration, bodily harm, and even death (and more)… are the potential consequences that go along with dissent that is not proscribed by government.

Of course, it is government that generally perpetrates the atrocities. Dissent becomes threatening when it has the potential of actually working, so that sort of dissent is banned.

One should no more believe that holding signs and pumping fists will end the U.S. rape of the Iraq (for example) – than gestures and anti-rape signs would stop a rape in progress.

Our responsibility is to attack the rapist, by whatever means are necessary to make the rape stop.

[Andromeda.]

Originally posted by Effendi
No problem Cat, Apparently ALL Americans (including myself) have legitimate reasons why we did "all we could" yet here we are. It wasn't enough!!

??

how am i supposed to be responsible for the president in office during the year i was born in and a CHILD during? or for that matter, when i'm 12 and not allowed to vote? or even 16 and STILL not allowed to vote?

my point is yeah, you can contribute, you can educate yourself once you're able, but you can't help what you're born into. that was all i meant by the "born during reagan / grew up during clinton / couldn't vote" comment.


Well OK, if your satisfied that you have done all you can, yet the ship is still sinking, all you have to do is swim like the rest of us.

i'm not satisfied with what's happenning nor did i say i was.

i said i absolutely do not agree that i'm responsible for someone else's decisions and beliefs. i may (and do) try to convince someone of what i feel to be true but if they still choose to support the bullshit that happens in this world and tell me i'm flat-out wrong, what am i going to do? beat them up? kick them out?

i'm not saying that the BURDEN of all the shit hitting the fan won't EFFECT me -- i just happen to believe in taking responsibility for yourself. i think we're arguing different points here.

:)

Listen, I know it's easier to feel like we have done all we can (collectively) yet we are in one hell of a pickle.

i never said i threw in the towel :) i have many things i do on behalf of my beliefs, and desires for this country, that amount to a lot more than just talking. i just don't feel the need to get in a pissing match about it. why? because i mentioned a few brief reasons why i will not take the blame for other people's willful actions, thoughts, and voting records (like they can't think for themselves? since when do adults need hand-holders and blame-takers?) and instead ended up with a smart-assed response about my general ineffectuality as a human by way of golf clap :rolleyes:

and while we're on that subject.

as IF those things i mentioned constitute every single possible thing i have done in my every day life to do my part? lol, it was a bare-bones case for why, like i said, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE TO CHOOSE TO BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND SO THAT THEY FEEL SAFE. but since i did mention those trite examples, that automatically makes me some kind of do-nothing cardboard cutout who just talks shit on the internet all day. right. whatever. *starts oozing sarcasm* maybe i should blog about it too since i'm not as powerful on nwtekno as i want to be :rolleyes: ugh.

you know, i shouldn't even HAVE to give stupid examples, because i am flat out not in charge of other people.

and speaking of that? has this current administration of non-responsibility REALLY so permeated american thought that anyone here is honestly going to DEFEND shifting the blame from the guilty to the ones who are simply easiest to blame? fuck all that. no, really, FUCK THAT.

bush stole two elections and unilaterally gave future "presidents" dictator rights as well as stealing the privacy of every citizen in this country, but that's not his fault. no, it's mine. even though i handed out tons of flyers against it and spent hours upon hours of mf time thoroughly explaining to people (in real life, not just the stupid fucking internet, thanks) why it's bad and more important than "just library records" and, now, writing to my president about it. no really, totally my fault, all my idea and i wanted it that way. rob is right, i'm not doing shit and never have.

*rips out hair*

just a questions for ya rob -- what are YOU doing since you seem to know enough about me to tell me that i'm doing nothing?

[Andromeda.]

Originally posted by Plerr
You think your social obligation ends at political discussions and voting?

no, learn to fuckin read. that was actually in rob's post? that conclusion he jumped to and you seem to think you read in my post?

way to grab on to the jumping-to-coclusions rope guys! tug a little harder :)

i love how you can type out a response in one minute and then because it's not a bible-length diatribe it's automatically all that exists in my head and life EVER. way to go nwtekno.

kthxby



edit**

and yeah, voting doesn't work how it should but it's what we've got for now. i'd rather use it, than NOT use it whatsoever and then just complain all day on the internet :rolleyes: sorry you don't agree, but voting IS important to ME even if it is not ideal and even if YOU possibly don't care about it.



anyway, i'm obviously barking up the wrong tree by asserting that, you know, that like people are responsible for themselves, so i'm going to go do something worthwhile now since being berated is not.

[Plerr]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
no, learn to fuckin read. that was actually in rob's post? that conclusion he jumped to and you seem to think you read in my post?

way to grab on to the jumping-to-coclusions rope guys! tug a little harder :)

i love how you can type out a response in one minute and then because it's not a bible-length diatribe it's automatically all that exists in my head and life EVER. way to go nwtekno.

kthxby



edit**

and yeah, voting doesn't work how it should but it's what we've got for now. i'd rather use it, than NOT use it whatsoever and then just complain all day on the internet :rolleyes: sorry you don't agree, but voting IS important to ME even if it is not ideal and even if YOU possibly don't care about it.



anyway, i'm obviously barking up the wrong tree by asserting that, you know, that like people are responsible for themselves, so i'm going to go do something worthwhile now since being berated is not.



Whoah there.

What conclusion did I jump to? I asked you a question, I wasn’t entirely sure what you were asserting…

After that I talked about my own personal sense of blame delegation, but not before noting the subjectivity of blame or responsibility.

No one berated you.

I’d understand if you accused me of soap-boxing. But I can’t understand why you felt personally attacked.

[Andromeda.]

eh no worries, i'm being an asshole for no reason. i shall blame PMS, i have been awfully hot and craving sugar today *laughs*
but it was this question which seemed like it stemmed out of rob's post more than mine.

sorry for being a bitch! :)

Originally posted by Plerr
You think your social obligation ends at political discussions and voting?

[burnt]

before attacking the "rapist" in your analogy you have to define what a "rape" is... - and what limitations, if any, have you defined for your metholodigies of "attack"?

and... - who defines who the definers are?

[gingerballs]

Originally posted by andromeda_68
way to grab on to the jumping-to-coclusions rope guys! tug a little harder :)


http://promote-my-site.com/images/jump_to_conclusions.jpg

Its not a rope, its a mat.

Originally posted by andromeda_68
just a questions for ya rob -- what are YOU doing since you seem to know enough about me to tell me that i'm doing nothing?

You tell people to learn to read yet you clearly didn't read what I've said.

[Iran]

And there is no seperate "Palestinian people", those are former Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians. Where's my proof? Go read a decent history book written by a secular historian, or try Benyamin Netanyahu's "A Durable Peace."

They attack Israel because they're apparently still sore at the humiliating defeat we gave them in '48, which kept escalating through the four other large conflicts they faced afterward. How did that start? Because of a famous radio address the main Islamic leader of that time made (I forget his name and title, can any one refresh my memory?) the day Israeli independance was declared.

Hating Zionism is the same thing as hating Jews, most people don't realize that though. The entire Jewish religion is bound to that homeland, it's where almost all of our historical sites lay. Even non-religious Jews need it to do archaeological work in order to refute the many claims about our history made by Jew haters. We do not massacre or slaughter the Arabs in any way, they walk freely around the streets (except for the checkpoints, but Israeli lives are worth Arab convenience in my opinion) and don't get harassed or shot unless they are seen as dangerous ( trying to murder a bunch of Israeli, or even Arab civilians, including babies). We do not bulldoze their homes while they are still in them, and over 90% of the homes bulldozed are abandoned. Reporters over there have a nasty habit of paying children who don't live at the buildings or even the neighborhoods, especially little girls, to walk around the rubble, making it look like they're homeless.

[djed]

Originally posted by Iran
And there is no seperate "Palestinian people", those are former Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians. Where's my proof? Go read a decent history book written by a secular historian, or try Benyamin Netanyahu's "A Durable Peace."

They attack Israel because they're apparently still sore at the humiliating defeat we gave them in '48, which kept escalating through the four other large conflicts they faced afterward. How did that start? Because of a famous radio address the main Islamic leader of that time made (I forget his name and title, can any one refresh my memory?) the day Israeli independance was declared.

Hating Zionism is the same thing as hating Jews, most people don't realize that though. The entire Jewish religion is bound to that homeland, it's where almost all of our historical sites lay. Even non-religious Jews need it to do archaeological work in order to refute the many claims about our history made by Jew haters. We do not massacre or slaughter the Arabs in any way, they walk freely around the streets (except for the checkpoints, but Israeli lives are worth Arab convenience in my opinion) and don't get harassed or shot unless they are seen as dangerous ( trying to murder a bunch of Israeli, or even Arab civilians, including babies). We do not bulldoze their homes while they are still in them, and over 90% of the homes bulldozed are abandoned. Reporters over there have a nasty habit of paying children who don't live at the buildings or even the neighborhoods, especially little girls, to walk around the rubble, making it look like they're homeless.

oh shit here we go now.

i watched a documentary called west bank and it showed isreali army bulldoozing houses with people in them,

next, research and explain the khazars

also, check out jews not zionist and true torah jews, both are groups of rabbis who are against zionism.

i think to say being against modern zionism is being anti jew is not true.

[Iran]

Originally posted by Effendi
Of course Chomsky is a bigot to a zionist, if he weren't jewish he's definitely be an "Anti-Semite". Lord knows many of the people that quote Chomsky certainly earn the title.

You know I got nothing but love for you Brandon but you have never read Chomsky my friend. Tell me I'm wrong.

For anyone who isn't familiar with him:

Noam Chomsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chompsky)

Chomsky is considered a self hating Jew by most!

You do a dis-honor to your fine country, your un-healthy obsession with Jewish conspiracy puts you into a small minority of mentally unstable basement dwellers that shed their life's frustration onto the Jewish people.

Get out of your basement and make better of yourself ...broken viking!

[Iran]

Originally posted by djed
oh shit here we go now.

i watched a documentary called west bank and it showed isreali army bulldoozing houses with people in them,

next, research and explain the khazars

also, check out jews not zionist and true torah jews, both are groups of rabbis who are against zionism.

i think to say being against modern zionism is being anti jew is not true.

Whatever your smoking pass some of it over here.

You narrow minded people crack me up. You want to believe all the crap thrown at you, but don't have enough common sense to use that brain of yours to see what is a lie and what is not. My sympathies go out to you.

And the irony is that the few and pathetic Jews Against Zionist or True Torah Jews would be among the first to get their self-hating tuchuses stuffed in the ovens if a new Hitler (G-D forbid) ever emerged.

The main reason is that regardless of any religious faith, Jews demonstrably have a 3000 + year old culture and are thus an (identified and identifiable) people. The existing documention of that culture focuses on Zion. Thus the modern name, Zionism.

I see modern Zionism simply as the result of the long - on going Jewish culture, traditions, experiences and (existantial) problems of the Jewish people. Modern Zionism was conceived by assimilated and secular Jews.

Muslim Pretending to be an Orthodox Jew on Arab TV

WATCH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v_4CuJBjnY#)

Muslim dressed up like an Orthodox Jew ranting on Arab TV how Jews should submit to Muslim rule, except he slips and calls Mohammed, Prophet Mohammed, which gives it away. Orthodox Jews don't believe Mohammed was a prophet, Muslims do. Next time you see more videos of supposed Neturei Karta Orthodox Jews speaking for Muslims, take it with a grain of salt. Most of them are Jews paid by Muslims to dress up and others are just plain Muslims. For an Orthodox Rabbi (not any ordinary person) to call Mohammed a prophet would be an act of blasphemy.

There are generally three different branches of Jewish people, the Ashkenazim or central European Jews, the Mizrahim or Middle Eastern Jews and the Sephardim or Spanish Jews. There are some other smaller groups, but those are the largest.

DNA evidence proves that almost all of these people can be traced back to having a common ancestry within a Middle Eastern population, primarily in Israel. Jews who migrated away from the Middle East were able to maintain discernible Jewish traits because there was very seldom intermarriage with non-Jewish communities.

So, it is definitely possible for a person to be ethnically Jewish and "look Jewish", but not necessarily be religiously Jewish...

[djed]

man you never even mentioned the whole khazar thing, sorry, but i dont smoke anything, i am drug free. and sorry that you have not done much research about this sort of stuff, and by the way, jewsagainstzionist is not a small group, and i have several jewish freinds who are against zionism, as well you never mentioned how the documentary "west bank" and "gaza strip" both show isreali troops bulldozing houses with people in them, as well as seveal attacks on children, sorry people are not just making thias stuff up, and its not some sort of conspiracy its genocide against the palastine.

[djed]

Originally posted by Iran
Chomsky is considered a self hating Jew by most!



and after you google khazars you can claim that arthur koestler is a self hating jew as well, which is a flat lie, since he says in his introduction to his book that that is exactly what he was afraid of people calling him.

just becasue chompsky exopses how fucked isreal is towards palestine and islam in general does not make him a self hating jew, he just willing to stand up against a government he does not agree with. and to say all jews are zionist is bs, i have met, and have had several jewish freinds who want a state of isreal but are very displeased with whats going on in isreal right now, so that is just bullshit to say jews are self hating because they do not agree with isreal. if im not happy with the american government does that make me a self hating american ?

[Iran]

Originally posted by djed
man you never even mentioned the whole khazar thing, sorry, but i dont smoke anything, i am drug free. and sorry that you have not done much research about this sort of stuff, and by the way, jewsagainstzionist is not a small group, and i have several jewish freinds who are against zionism, as well you never mentioned how the documentary "west bank" and "gaza strip" both show isreali troops bulldozing houses with people in them, as well as seveal attacks on children, sorry people are not just making thias stuff up, and its not some sort of conspiracy its genocide against the palastine.

How many Jews do you know who hunt?
They only hunt for things that can't out run them, usually at outlet malls.

Mossad is also responsible for my slow internet connection...

Everything can make sense if you add enough lies and half truths coupled with a good spin. If you believed all the theories, then Mossad is responsible for 80% of the worlds disasters.

It would be great to remedy the injustice and help Palestinians enjoy the same blessings of self-determination, freedom, and prosperity that Israelis enjoy; but not at the expense of Israel's existence.

Just as nobody can live another person's life for them, no matter how much we parents sometimes want to help our children thereby, so no nation can live another nation's history for them. Palestinians had ample opportunity to create their own state, but they don't seem to muster the interest, will, or drive for that. Nobody can give them an independent state.

In 1948, Palestinians could have gotten down to business of forming their own state. Instead, they quietly surrendered to Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian occupation.

On the other end of modernity, when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, Palestinians could have started building a new society there. instead, they started shooting rockets at Israel.

Their history is in their hands, no matter how much they want to blame Jews for it.

The relentless drive to pin all the blame on the Jews simply shows that the real goal is not to help the Palestinians but to attack the Jews. Don't give a flying fuck about Palestinians, except in as much as they provide fodder for attacking Israel -- else they would have taken notice of immeasurably greater injuries to freedom and dignity of peoples occurring throughout the world.

In the minds of Jew haters, Palestinians are nothing but a weapon aimed at the Jew's heart.

[burnt]

so then, there is no apartheid in Israel, and Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied areas are free to move about as they want and are allowed to vote?