police report: zeitgeist/ron paul/liberty enthusiasts = terrorists [Archive]

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Roddimus

03-12-2009, 08:15 AM

http://www.infowars.com/secret-state-police-report-ron-paul-bob-barr-chuck-baldwin-libertarians-are-terrorists/

The MIAC report specifically describes supporters of presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr as “militia” influenced terrorists and instructs the Missouri police to be on the lookout for supporters displaying bumper stickers and other paraphernalia associated with the Constitutional, Campaign for Liberty, and Libertarian parties.

“Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC) provides a public safety partnership consisting of local, state and federal agencies, as well as the public sector and private entities that will collect, evaluate, analyze, and disseminate information and intelligence to the agencies tasked with Homeland Security responsibilities in a timely, effective, and secure manner,” explains the MIAC website. “MIAC is the mechanism to collect incident reports of suspicious activities to be evaluated and analyzed in an effort to identify potential trends or patterns of terrorist or criminal operations within the state of Missouri. MIAC will also function as a vehicle for two-way communication between federal, state and local law enforcement community within our region.”

my favorite page from the report:

http://www.infowars.com/images/scan0024.jpg

zeitgeist and freedom to fascism right next to a neo-nazi novel.

IrisSilverMoon

03-12-2009, 08:29 AM

I fucking hate when anytime someone disagrees with the system emphatically people take it as a "terrorist act" these days.

that whole "with us or against us!" mentality really grates on me, we don't have to agree with the government and not agreeing does not mean anyone is breaking any laws.

pathetic.

hmm...Alex Jones/infowars/pp...do you have anything from a less biased news resource per chance? has anyone else picked this story up?

tr0llaccount

03-12-2009, 08:29 AM

i don't do infowars/alex jones, so would you mind quoting the report that specifically refers to supporters of particular candidates as militia influenced terrorists?

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 08:35 AM

i don't do infowars/alex jones, so would you mind quoting the report that specifically refers to supporters of particular candidates as militia influenced terrorists?

http://www.infowars.com/images/scan0023.jpg

normally i don't hold up infowars as the most outstanding media source either. but they're the ones who got the documents this time, so what ya gonna do?

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 08:42 AM

hmm...Alex Jones/infowars/pp...do you have anything from a less biased news resource per chance? has anyone else picked this story up?
not yet, but infowars was the source who first received the docs. apparently they called the numbers on the report and received confirmation from a captain that the report was real.
infowars is notorious for exaggerating and being alarmist, but i doubt they'd outright lie about something like this.

Mee-Shell

03-12-2009, 08:43 AM

Wow. Who knew I was a terrorist!

Good to know. lol

Fucking idiots.

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 08:49 AM

tr0llaccount

03-12-2009, 08:54 AM

[normally i don't hold up infowars as the most outstanding media source either. but they're the ones who got the documents this time, so what ya gonna do?

agreed.

i it's worth mentioning that the report states that that militia members generally support those parties, not that supporters are generally militia members/terrorists. that might be splitting hairs, but if you stick to a strict interpretation of the wording, it's fairly accurate from what i've seen. also keep in mind that this is a single state organization, not a federal one, that created this document. there are a also number of innacurracies and half-truths that make me wonder if this is just a document/policy created by well-intentioned, but poorly informed people.

so, while it is concerning, i think that at least a little of the typical alex jones sky-is-falling fear mongering has been applied to this document/situation.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 08:54 AM

Cethe

03-12-2009, 08:55 AM

but every time you get to the utmost extremes, they tend to have more similarities than most realize.

holy shit, probably the smartest & most concise summation of shitty politics evar.

and the report...meh. i've known i'm a terrorist for a while.

but that started with pipe bombs in teacher's mailboxes in high school

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 08:58 AM

agreed.

i it's worth mentioning that the report states that that militia members generally support those parties, not that supporters are generally militia members/terrorists. that might be splitting hairs, but if you stick to a strict interpretation of the wording, it's fairly accurate from what i've seen. also keep in mind that this is a single state organization, not a federal one, that created this document. there are a also number of innacurracies and half-truths that make me wonder if this is just a document/policy created by well-intentioned, but poorly informed people.
MIAC is a federal "fusion" center. it combines both federal and state agencies.

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 09:04 AM

since when have militias been such a pressing threat? since obama was elected?
but i see your logic. afterall, muslims are a part of the same religion as osama bin laden. profiling is just so much easier than looking for actual criminals.

i don't disagree. profiling =/= actual police work... but cops get killed for not being aware of their surroundings. one of these articles of 'militia propaganda' probably isn't going to cause much alarm, but if a cop pulls a truck over and they have a bob barr sticker, a gadsden flag, 'molon labe' scrawled across the back window, and a copy of zeitgeist on the front seat, it is probably better for the officer to know that there is likely to be a confrontation when he starts writing that speeding ticket.

but really - for all i care, the militias can keep their compounds in montana or whatever other hillbilly location they hide in so long as they keep it to themselves.

tr0llaccount

03-12-2009, 09:07 AM

MIAC is a federal "fusion" center. it combines both federal and state agencies.

i'll agree that it's still concerning (and i was wrong that it's just a state level org), but i don't see it as the next step towards united nation run prison camps as aj will likely play it.

(upon further review, it actually looks more like a choicepoint/lexis nexis type service that municipal/state/federal/private sector can contribute to and collect data from?)

Effendi

03-12-2009, 09:10 AM

...meh. i've known i'm a terrorist for a while.

Yea me too.....It seems that every couple of years the Department of Homeland Security comes around to remind me that they think they know something as well.

My standard answer is...................................... I'm Jack Bauer......bitches...........

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 09:17 AM

i don't disagree. profiling =/= actual police work... but cops get killed for not being aware of their surroundings.
when was the last time an office was killed because he didn't automatically assume someone with libertarian bumper stickers was going to attack him?
one of these articles of 'militia propaganda' probably isn't going to cause much alarm, but if a cop pulls a truck over and they have a bob barr sticker, a gadsden flag, 'molon labe' scrawled across the back window, and a copy of zeitgeist on the front seat, it is probably better for the officer to know that there is likely to be a confrontation when he starts writing that speeding ticket.
oh come on, you'd might as well assume anyone with a copy of the koran and a crescent star decal is going to set off an IED when pulled over.

Cethe

03-12-2009, 09:20 AM

Yea me too.....It seems that every couple of years the Department of Homeland Security comes around to remind me that they think they know something as well.

My standard answer is...................................... I'm Jack Bauer......bitches...........

Funny i say 'jack burton'

lol gets a funny look, cuz they know they recognize it, but can never place it...lol

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 09:22 AM

i'll agree that it's still concerning (and i was wrong that it's just a state level org), but i don't see it as the next step towards united nation run prison camps as aj will likely play it.
whether or not you or i think that's where this is heading, it's still extremely disturbing that those opposed to things like the federal reserve and supportive of things like the bill of rights are being singled out as potential terrorists. it's fucked up no matter how you slice it.

Ratboy

03-12-2009, 09:26 AM

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 09:29 AM

when was the last time an office was killed because he didn't automatically assume someone with libertarian bumper stickers was going to attack him?

oh come on, you'd might as well assume anyone with a copy of the koran and a crescent star decal is going to set off an IED when pulled over.

i was just saying it makes sense that an officer would want to be aware of ANY potential threat... think about the officer who was killed in bellevue with his own gun by that naked crazy guy a while back. my guess is that he perceived the situation as less threatening than he should have. i am not saying that profiling is the best use of the police force, but it goes with the territory whether you like it or not. and no, a koran and a crescent star is probably not going to be enough to set off alarms, and that is why i mentioned FOUR articles rather than TWO. don't be so obtuse...

tr0llaccount

03-12-2009, 09:37 AM

it's fucked up no matter how you slice it.

i definitely don't disagree with you on that.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 09:38 AM

i am not saying that profiling is the best use of the police force, but it goes with the territory whether you like it or not.
it also gives asshole cops an excuse to harass a new set of citizens based on bullshit guilt-by-association tactics.
again, when and where have libertarians been attacking cops so much to make them such a potential threat?
and no, a koran and a crescent star is probably not going to be enough to set off alarms, and that is why i mentioned FOUR articles rather than TWO. don't be so obtuse...
haha, jesus christ.
sorry, i didn't realize there was an article limit that made someone more of a threat than someone else. so if the guy was also wearing a turban and had a pro-palestinian bumper sticker THEN it'd OK to assume he might attack the cop?
:rolleyes:

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 09:52 AM

it also gives asshole cops an excuse to harass a new set of citizens based on bullshit guilt-by-association tactics.
again, when and where have libertarians been attacking cops so much to make them such a potential threat?

haha, jesus christ.
sorry, i didn't realize there was an article limit that made someone more of a threat than someone else. so if the guy was also wearing a turban and had a pro-palestinian bumper sticker THEN it'd OK to assume he might attack the cop?
:rolleyes:

you have to consider the flip-side. not all cops are assholes out to harass people. it also helps that they are made aware of any/all potential threats by being made aware of what could be a warning sign. cultural awareness is great, subcultural awareness is better. going into a situation blind to all possibilities is just bad form. if a cop can talk to an individual at their level, the likelihood of mitigating a risk is much higher. if you assume the worst outcome, the outcome can only equal or be better to your assumption. it would be nice if we lived in a world without extremists and asshole cops, but we don't - get used to it. in the meantime, have fun living in a world where you think the man is out to get you...

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 10:06 AM

you have to consider the flip-side. not all cops are assholes out to harass people.
of course they aren't, but the ones that are have been given a new set of law abiding citizens to distrust and discriminate against.
it also helps that they are made aware of any/all potential threats by being made aware of what could be a warning sign. cultural awareness is great, subcultural awareness is better. going into a situation blind to all possibilities is just bad form.
AGAIN, even if you accept this prejudiced logic, where are the libertarians attacking police??? what "possibility" are they potentially blind to?
most cops treat any situation they enter as potentially dangerous, as they should. i don't see the value in making out one type of person to be more dangerous than another. if anything this sort of profiling puts a cop at a disadvantage, as someone who doesn't meet these criteria could easily be 100 times more dangerous than someone who does.
in the meantime, have fun living in a world where you think the man is out to get you...
and you have fun justifying profiling and discrimination.

tr0llaccount

03-12-2009, 10:12 AM

if anything this sort of profiling puts a cop at a disadvantage, as someone who doesn't meet these criteria could easily be 100 times more dangerous than someone who does.

this is a good point, as any relatively intelligent (and likely very dangerous) terrorist will likely make a concious effort to avoid projecting those stereotypes.

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 10:14 AM

they aren't profiling libertarians. get over yourself. it says "militia members." and here are a few things they like to do - http://www.adl.org/mwd/follies.asp

B_tech

03-12-2009, 10:15 AM

.. I don't get it. The stuff they stated was, for the most part, true. Zeitgeist was anti Federal Reserve, Freedom to Facism was anti income tax and McVeigh DID read that book. Those emblems are used as they described... people are joining militias amongst themselves...the 'conspiracy theories' are legitimate... I guess I don't see what the hullaballoo is about, other than another mad ranting from Alex Jones' tin-foil posse. The report just looks like another internal memo that's meant to spread information as 'the man' sees fit.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 10:25 AM

they aren't profiling libertarians. get over yourself. it says "militia members." [/url]
yeah, and anyone with libertarian views is to be seen as a potential militia member (ie- profiled). you'd might as well say anyone who wants universal health care is a potential communist terrorist.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 10:29 AM

.. I don't get it. The stuff they stated was, for the most part, true. Zeitgeist was anti Federal Reserve, Freedom to Facism was anti income tax and McVeigh DID read that book.
and what do zeitgeist and freedom to fascism have to with a neo-nazi novel about a violent overthrow of the US government?
I guess I don't see what the hullaballoo is about, other than another mad ranting from Alex Jones' tin-foil posse. The report just looks like another internal memo that's meant to spread information as 'the man' sees fit.
and apparently "the man" sees fit to associate peaceful libertarian movements with domestic terrorists. unless you now think it's acceptable for the government to monitor and harass anti-war and pro-liberty groups under the auspices of counter-terror, i'd say the hullaballoo is definitely about something.

burnt

03-12-2009, 10:35 AM

its such a vicious cycle.

shock media news teevee shows show just ... all these horrible cases, back to back to back. and allude to or suggest that its because of druggies, or because of islamics, or because of over-patriotic right wing people, or because of protestors/hippies.

so cops get assigned to do all this pointless busywork tracking down and trainspotting all these perfectly harmless druggies and islamics and overly-patriotic right wing people and protestors/hippies.

and meanwhile the real criminals, the one-offs, surf the inefficiencies and get away with shit.
and usually get away with stealing cars or raping women or embezzling money or stealing identities.

and when one of them finally gets caught ...

shock media news teevee shows don't focus on the theft or the rape or the embezzlement... they just use the horrific shock of those terrible occurrences to segue into the fact that the perpetrator was a druggie, or an islamic, or an overly-patriotic right winger, or a protestor/hippie...

so mayors and senators get their inboxes flooded with angry citizens demanding that "somebody do something" about all these druggies and islamics and overly patriotic right wingers and protestors and hippies...

so cops focus on innocent druggies and islamics, etc, etc... ugh.

speaking strictly at the operational level, we have got to have one of the most inefficient and bassackwards legal systems in the world. =\

zeitgeist = terrorism?? really?? jesus its fucking streaming media, not a fucking IED.

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 10:36 AM

yeah, and anyone with libertarian views is to be seen as a potential militia member (ie- profiled). you'd might as well say anyone who wants universal health care is a potential communist terrorist.

wrong. read it again. i know this might be hard, but do it in an unbiased manner. i don't see any verbiage that says -

"The MIAC report specifically describes supporters of presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr as “militia” influenced terrorists and instructs the Missouri police to be on the lookout for supporters displaying bumper stickers and other paraphernalia associated with the Constitutional, Campaign for Liberty, and Libertarian parties."

the guy who wrote this = failure in critical reading

it actually says that "these (militia) members are usually supporters of former presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr."

let me make it very simple - the internal MIAC note says - all 6 year olds tend to be childish. your author is saying - all childish people are 6 years old.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 10:47 AM

wrong. read it again. i know this might be hard, but do it in an unbiased manner. i don't see any verbiage that says -

"The MIAC report specifically describes supporters of presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr as “militia” influenced terrorists and instructs the Missouri police to be on the lookout for supporters displaying bumper stickers and other paraphernalia associated with the Constitutional, Campaign for Liberty, and Libertarian parties."

the guy who wrote this =/= failure in critical reading

it actually says that "these (militia) members are usually supporters of former presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr."

let me make it very simple - the internal MIAC note says - all 6 year olds tend to be childish. your author is saying - all childish people are 6 years old.
you're really splitting hairs.
the goal of the report is supposedly to help police identify violent militia members, and describes violent militia members as people with libertarian views. thus, it is implicitly telling police to assume people with libertarian views are potential violent militia members.
and again, would you mind telling me which violent militias have pointed to things like zeitgeist as their primary influences?

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 10:52 AM

you're really splitting hairs.
the goal of the report is supposedly to help police identify violent militia members, and describes violent militia members as people with libertarian views. thus, it is implicitly telling police to assume libertarians are potential violent militia members.
and again, would you mind telling me which violent militias have pointed to things like zeitgeist as their primary influences?

actually, i am splitting hairs to make the point that your author is splitting hairs. only difference is that your author is jumping to illogical conclusions based on emotion. how about you tell me where is says this MIAC note says zeitgeist is a primary influence of militia members first...

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 10:59 AM

actually, i am splitting hairs to make the point that your author is splitting hairs. only difference is that your author is jumping to illogical conclusions based on emotion.
all of that doesn't change the fact that the police are being told to view people with libertarian views as potential violent militia members, even if MIAC is doing it in a backhanded way.
how about you tell me where is says this MIAC note says zeitgeist is a primary influence of militia members first...
um, where it lists zeitgeist as "media common to the militia" and puts it next to a piece of media that is a primary influence of violent militias? please explain how saying zeitgeist is common to violent militias is in anyway justified?

Mortal Grey

03-12-2009, 11:01 AM

yeah im getting tired of anyone with a clue of what to do with this broken system getting classified as a terrorist... it was thomas jefferson who said anytime a gov got too much power or became about the corporate interests that it was the citizens' duty to revolt. That is supposed to be our right as citizens yet with the patriot act still in full effect we are slowly becoming classified as criminals as they strip away our freedoms and listen in on our conversations and read our email.

Jefferson also said:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous
to our liberties than standing armies. Already they
have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set
the Government at defiance. The issuing power should
be taken from the banks and restored to the people to
whom it properly belongs. "

and

"If the American people ever allow private banks to
control the issue of their money, first by inflation
and then by deflation, the banks and corporations
that will grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property until their
children will wake up homeless on the continent
their fathers conquered. "

I find it interesting and sad that anyone challenging the powers of banks are now being labeled as possible terrorists by police organizations. The banking elite control everything...Our government and its policies are direct results of their power.

B_tech

03-12-2009, 11:11 AM

and what do zeitgeist and freedom to fascism have to with a neo-nazi novel about a violent overthrow of the US government?
C'mon...you don't see how the po-po could make the claim that those movies were propaganda to overthrow the US Government? You and I know they're not associated, but you have to admit that it's not out of the realm of possibility to link them; at least, not for the governments.

unless you now think it's acceptable for the government to monitor and harass anti-war and pro-liberty groups under the auspices of counter-terror, i'd say the hullaballoo is definitely about something.
Not conding it, but the Patriot Act allows it.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 11:23 AM

C'mon...you don't see how the po-po could make the claim that those movies were propaganda to overthrow the US Government? You and I know they're not associated, but you have to admit that it's not out of the realm of possibility to link them; at least, not for the governments.
well yeah, for a corrupt government on the brink of collapse, yeah, that does make sense to link them.

B_tech

03-12-2009, 11:37 AM

Cethe

03-12-2009, 11:46 AM

You've ever see police memorandum before? Those kinds of documents are far more common than you'd think. I got one from SLC Sheriffs (at work) that was horribly racist against Mexicans; seeing this kind of thing jsut doesn't surprise me.

imo, that doesn't make it any better.

i'm trying to be more "middle" here. but there are things that concern me.

BUT...ish like this is why i don't wear my political views on my bumper either.
and drive a non descript white cargo van, that looks like 90000000000 other white cargo work vans in this city.

IrisSilverMoon

03-12-2009, 11:58 AM

You've ever see police memorandum before? Those kinds of documents are far more common than you'd think. I got one from SLC Sheriffs (at work) that was horribly racist against Mexicans; seeing this kind of thing jsut doesn't surprise me.

that's even more disturbing.

I don't agree with targeting specific groups of people, behaviors of individuals and groups seem a much more likely indicator of violence than political views or skin color. I understand there are a lot of cultural ties which could be indicators as well, but its hard to include those without condemning everyone involved as a possible suspect.

we just live in a time of paranoia (and not for undue reason)

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 12:30 PM

all of that doesn't change the fact that the police are being told to view people with libertarian views as potential violent militia members, even if MIAC is doing it in a backhanded way.

that is yours and your author's take...

um, where it lists zeitgeist as "media common to the militia" and puts it next to a piece of media that is a primary influence of violent militias? please explain how saying zeitgeist is common to violent militias is in anyway justified?

that is an insufficient answer.

so if i say the following - here are ways to identify bank robbers - guns and ski masks and running into a bank yelling 'this is a stickup!' that you would say that i suspect any person wearing a ski mask, regardless of other conditions (like maybe they are skiing), that that person is liable to rob a bank?

the police aren't completely retarded... but, yes, unfortunately there are officers, who like you, cannot read critically enough to understand that a preponderance of these items, when combined, are typical of militias and take the occurrence of one piece of this information as reason enough to profile. and zeitgeist, like ANYTHING based in fact, can be misquoted and used by a wide range of people to fit their biases. militias are anti anything that involves the government touching their property (including money touched by the federal reserve) and distort the vision of films and works like zeitgeist and the political views of libertarians to fit their needs. not the other way around. seriously... unless you have experienced harassment for peacefully demonstrating your political views or if you got billy clubbed when you rented zeitgeist, i don't understand why you are freaking out...

B_tech

03-12-2009, 12:43 PM

imo, that doesn't make it any better.

i'm trying to be more "middle" here. but there are things that concern me.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I think it's appaling. But seeing Alex Jones get all uppity over this is comical, because these police and govt agencies send out memos like this all the time. It seems counterproductive to me, but what do we know, right?

I should try to find that SLC memo... I think I still have it in my work email.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 01:24 PM

so if i say the following - here are ways to identify bank robbers - guns and ski masks and running into a bank yelling 'this is a stickup!' that you would say that i suspect any person wearing a ski mask, regardless of other conditions (like maybe they are skiing), that that person is liable to rob a bank?
again, please point to a single instance where violent militias have pointed to zeitgeist or freedom to fascism as their "common" media.
and zeitgeist, like ANYTHING based in fact, can be misquoted and used by a wide range of people to fit their biases. militias are anti anything that involves the government touching their property (including money touched by the federal reserve) and distort the vision of films and works like zeitgeist and the political views of libertarians to fit their needs.
yes, but have they actually distorted those specific films and works?
it's one thing to say "this is the line of anti-government thinking they abuse," it's another to say "these films are common to violent militias."
unless you have experienced harassment for peacefully demonstrating your political views or if you got billy clubbed when you rented zeitgeist, i don't understand why you are freaking out...
because a lot of honest people's works that have absolutely nothing to do with violent terrorist organizations are suddenly being associated with them. and why? because they might, maybe, possibly share some of the same anti-establishment views as those organizations, even tho there is zero evidence those organizations are even using or actively promoting their works?
fuck that shit.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 01:32 PM

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I think it's appaling. But seeing Alex Jones get all uppity over this is comical, because these police and govt agencies send out memos like this all the time. It seems counterproductive to me, but what do we know, right?
i don't see how it's counterproductive. and yes, they do send out these sorts of memos all the time, and jones usually reports on them when they do. i just found this one to be particularly disturbing, especially since militias really aren't posing much of an immediate threat to the country these days. however i wouldn't be surprised if government does indeed find the liberty movement to be a real threat, even being as non-violent as it is.

B_tech

03-12-2009, 01:58 PM

Well, I think it's counterproductive to issue some mis-information, like they do, because it has no real world use.
I agree that militias aren't that big of a deal... but who knows, maybe they're an issue in Missouri?

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 02:10 PM

i always kick myself for getting into debates with the tin foil hat club...

closing thought:

my view is this - to those who hold on to the thought that the government or illuminati or the rothschild's or whatever group you THINK controls the world... let go. i understand that this might be fantastically frightening to you to have to perceive a world where NO ONE is actually in control of anything that actually matters, but that is just how it is. many replace the opiatelike effect of a god or other controlling being from the great beyond (when they realize what horseshit THAT is) with conspiracies which replace the control of that other omnipotent force. it is only natural to WANT to either control your environment or at least feel that your environment is controlled. sooooooooo... have fun with that. because until the man actually knocks on my door for being a godless commie... well... i'm certainly not going to lose any sleep...

/rant

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 02:25 PM

i always kick myself for getting into debates with the tin foil hat club...
haha, thanks for the awesome cop-out and baseless generalizations! i was wondering how much longer it would take.
i understand that this might be fantastically frightening to you to have to perceive a world where NO ONE is actually in control of anything that actually matters, but that is just how it is.
i dunno about no illuminati rothschild shit, but i can say with 100% certainty that private interests DO control our nation's currency, and do so with zero public oversight. and i happen to think our nation's currency does actually matter.
and i don't get this whole "you're just scared to believe things aren't controlled" line. knowing that we have a centrally controlled banking system is fantastically frightening. in fact it's horrifying. it's the reason why we're on the verge of a massive depression. fuck man, if our banking system was free and not controlled i'd be a lot less scared about our country's future.

dj plantlife

03-12-2009, 02:38 PM

haha, thanks for the awesome cop-out and baseless generalizations! i was wondering how much longer it would take.

i dunno about no illuminati rothschild shit, but i can say with 100% certainty that private interests DO control our nation's currency, and do so with zero public oversight. and i happen to think our nation's currency does actually matter.
and i don't get this whole "you're just scared to believe things aren't controlled" line. knowing that we have a centrally controlled banking system is fantastically frightening. in fact it's horrifying. it's the reason why we're on the verge of a massive depression. fuck man, if our banking system was free and not controlled i'd be a lot less scared about our country's future.

you could also get hit by a bus tomorrow and the centrally controlled banking system would have nothing to do with it... i said "NO ONE is actually in control of anything that actually matters." i, for one, am not scared of economic collapse, money may one day just be worthless ink and paper... shit happens. adapt.

Roddimus

03-12-2009, 02:45 PM

you could also get hit by a bus tomorrow and the centrally controlled banking system would have nothing to do with it...
that makes no sense. please make sense.
i said "NO ONE is actually in control of anything that actually matters." i, for one, am not scared of economic collapse, money may one day just be worthless ink and paper...
yeah, past currency collapses have only ushered in murderous regimes and total social breakdown. yep, those are things that totally don't matter.

HexRei

03-12-2009, 02:46 PM

I don't see why the concept that the rich and powerful control the world is so hard to believe. It's practically a truism if you examine history. And it's even more serious an issue with the kind of world we have now- satellites that can watch anywhere on earth, cameras all over our cities, citizens' rights steadily being degraded, increased militarization and indeed actually military now patrolling our streets, a populace that is naive enough to believe that the powerful would never cooperate to maintain their power.

Andromeda.

03-12-2009, 03:18 PM

*jaw drops*

thanks for posting this, rod. i'm speechless. (possibly literally some day! fuck!)

I fucking hate when anytime someone disagrees with the system emphatically people take it as a "terrorist act" these days.

that whole "with us or against us!" mentality really grates on me, we don't have to agree with the government and not agreeing does not mean anyone is breaking any laws.

pathetic.

welcome to the empire :/

Andromeda.

03-12-2009, 03:35 PM

militia types, while GENERALLY a bunch of racist/separatist dipshits, are also in favor of a completely hands-off government and freedom on their terms.

pffft, tell me about it. too bad most of them are too fucking stupid to realize that freedom on their terms isn't the same as actual freedom. i have one of these fucking fucks for a neighbor out here in the woods (you know, where all the crazies go apparently :rolleyes: ) and his hypocrite ass calls the cops on uss all the time...AND planted a fucking mailbox bomb on our street when someone finally dared to call them back on him for harassment :rolleyes:

and the funny thing is, he and the people in my house are probably all pretty equally mistrustful of the government, even though HE is the one that displays it so rampantly (read: like a fucking white trash eyesore splotch on our neighborhood)...but this all started because he would prefer our soundtrack be provided by the fucking grateful dead instead of hip hop :rolleyes: jackass. i guess there is no common ground whatsoever unless we're all listenning to the same passe garbage as eachother :rolleyes: i cannot stress the eye rolling enough.

/ tangential rant about double standards and dipshit control freaks

most people see the far left and far right as complete opposites, but every time you get to the utmost extremes, they tend to have more similarities than most realize.

right?!?!?!

flipsides of the same coin.

Cethe

03-12-2009, 05:13 PM

i really have nothing new to contribute....

but i find it QUITE humorus, my pandora station picked Public Enemy "Fight the Power" as i clicked this thread.
it's never played public enemy for me before.

is it a sign?
;)

Plerr

03-12-2009, 08:42 PM

most people see the far left and far right as complete opposites, but every time you get to the utmost extremes, they tend to have more similarities than most realize.

right?!?!?!

flipsides of the same coin.

...really? like what? which similarities?

Andromeda.

03-12-2009, 08:59 PM

overpassionate, unwavering loyalty to the memes they've adopted, inability to reason outside of personal prejudice, and the belief that one's views are the golden objective standard of truth for everybodies everywheres :)

the ideas themselves not so much as the attitude behind them...

except that staunch mistrust of the government seems to be common. well, not really, look at foxnews on a republican year.

nevermind! :)

Plerr

03-12-2009, 09:30 PM

overpassionate, unwavering loyalty to the memes they've adopted, inability to reason outside of personal prejudice, and the belief that one's views are the golden objective standard of truth for everybodies everywheres :) [/b]

over-passionate? well, that's subjective.

Unwavering loyalty to the memes they've adopted? couldn't the same be said for people with any socio-economic/philosophical conviction?

I'm fairly certain the far-left isn't predicated on the standardization of anything, save absence of authoritarianism/autocratic-hierarchy from their collective will/lives. I think one could argue that save the far-left, every other socio-political philosophy is predicated on some authoritarianism and forcing a "standard truth for everybodies everywheres" (or at least, everyone in a particular society)

Andromeda.

03-12-2009, 09:52 PM

overpassionate meaning like...fundamentalists. i don't know i can't really explain it. i guess people that are so ooo oooooo livid about their beliefs that it makes them crazy.

of course people are loyal to their beliefs. but people are also rational creatures and, when given enough evidence, are capable of weighing it and possibly changing their ideas if necessary. some people that get all mega die hard about...whatever...literally can't think outside the box they've drawn for themselves, but then they also start drawing themselves into suffocated corners of even that.

or, also, may get to the point where they will purposely twist all evidence against [___insert belief here___] so that they don't have to think.

passion and conviction are good things, of course. when they start to interfere with your ability to think though they can become a problem.

i guess im thinking along the lines of obsessive thought.

extremists -- regardless of which camp they belong to -- tend to have obsessive thought patterns.

:/

did i explain that right yet? i can't tell.

Plerr

03-13-2009, 07:11 AM

overpassionate meaning like...fundamentalists. i don't know i can't really explain it. i guess people that are so ooo oooooo livid about their beliefs that it makes them crazy.[/b]

well, maybe it's crazy not to be livid about some things. Who says passivity isn't crazy?

of course people are loyal to their beliefs. but people are also rational creatures and, when given enough evidence, are capable of weighing it and possibly changing their ideas if necessary. some people that get all mega die hard about...whatever...literally can't think outside the box they've drawn for themselves, but then they also start drawing themselves into suffocated corners of even that.

or, also, may get to the point where they will purposely twist all evidence against [___insert belief here___] so that they don't have to think.

I'm pretty sure dogmatic, doctrinaire, people exist at every end of the socio-political spectrum...left, right, center, etc.

I don't buy this idea that centrism is less fanatical, or that centrists are more rational.

extremists -- regardless of which camp they belong to -- tend to have obsessive thought patterns.

well, that's the thing - who is, or isn't an "extremist" depends on subjective value judgments. For example - I personally perceive the far-left to be less doctrinal, more analytical, and less "extreme" than the center or right. I think perhaps the further right one goes, the further "extremist" one gets. But that doesn't really mean much of anything...there's no definitive right-ness to it.

Mortal Grey

03-13-2009, 08:24 AM

i said "NO ONE is actually
in control of anything that actually matters." i, for one, am not scared of economic
collapse, money may one day just be worthless ink and paper... shit happens. adapt.

No one is in contol of anything? So major corporations and financiers have nothing to do with what happens in this world? So when IG Farben and Rockefeller's Standard Oil partnered up to directly fund Hitler and his rise to power, that didn't affect history? Do you think that he would have been able to become such a world power without industrialists who profited off of his war machine funding him? Do you think that Ford and General Motors making Nazi war vehicles in Germany, while Chrystler made vehicles for the Allied side (both profiting signifigantly) was a coincidence? Right. They had nothing to do with millions dying. Or is it that the deaths of millions doesn't really matter?

because until the man actually knocks on my door for being a godless commie... well... i'm certainly not going to lose any sleep...
/rant

So by that logic, if people in this country or others were being put into 'camps' because they were say Muslim, or Jewish...You would look the other way..."Hey I'm not Muslim or Jewish, so I don't have anything to worry about".....I seem to remember something like that happening a few places throughout history. Doesn't matter though. It didn't affect you.

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 09:15 AM

obviously i am being taken out of context... or not making my point well enough...

let me clarify - i am not condoning apathy. i am huge supporter of standing up for yourself when the time comes. if you are a part of a group that is ACTUALLY being profiled/harassed/murdered/robbed/cheated (the list goes on), by all means - rally the fucking troops... BUT shit like this is retarded IMHO... it is one person's fatalist take on a memo that has nothing to do with them. the american gestapo isn't kicking in my door for my beliefs nor are they rounding up libertarians. when they do, get back to me and i'll be the first to join the front lines of the revolution.

my main argument is that there is a major difference between control and perception of control. if you realize that attempts to control you are only ATTEMPTS until they have you ACTUALLY pinned down, that you are free to choose fight or flight, your chances of survival will be a lot higher. never give in, never give up.

as for the original post - i stand by my argument that a well informed police officer will do a much better job than an uninformed one...

B_tech

03-13-2009, 09:17 AM

my main argument is that there is a major difference between control and perception of control.
Quoted for truth.

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 09:23 AM

Quoted for truth.

sez the man of the one of the most hated on ethnic groups in history... ;)

k1e0x

03-13-2009, 11:46 AM

i understand why you might be up in arms (as it were) about having "zeitgeist and freedom to fascism right next to a neo-nazi novel" but you do get why they are, don't you? i mean, information is information and people will use it to support whatever cause they have ESPECIALLY when the information is more or less delivering facts with little opinion (zeitgeist & freedom to fascism).

militia types, while GENERALLY a bunch of racist/separatist dipshits, are also in favor of a completely hands-off government and freedom on their terms. most people see the far left and far right as complete opposites, but every time you get to the utmost extremes, they tend to have more similarities than most realize.

Why is it every time the government does something absolutely outrageous like calls the Gadsden flag or one of Aaron Russo's (a former Libertarian Party presidential candidate) films TERRORISM. (Yeah, they are calling it FUCKING TERRORISM, punishable by death without trial, you know the modern day version of the Spanish Inquisition...!)

Why is it... when they do that mother fucking jackasses like dj plantlife, come out to defend their actions?

You don't even understand what your talking about. Being in favor of liberty is NOT EXTREMISM! Understanding the nature of rights properly means you understand you can not enact violence on others, it's not that non-violence and liberty only go together, it's that they are the very same thing.. because you can't at the same time be respectful of others rights and enact violence and force on them. It's these cops who are the ones enacting violence every god dammed day, they are adrenaline junkies who *enjoy* hurting people and causing fights. (http://www.memphisrap.com/2009/03/01/police-deputy-beats-down-15-yr-old-girl-in-teen-beaten-caught-on-tape/) It's also not being either left OR right, the political spectrum is more than a single line with "radicals" on either end. You yourself seem to see that by saying. "they tend to have more similarities than most realize." .. Yeah.. you wana know why Einstein? Because those that use violence and force on others ARE the same, they are authoritarians and statests and they are the exact OPPOSITE of people who believe in liberty.

They are using this information to try to paint a picture. This is how terrible things start. They paint a picture of a Japanese-American man being only loyal to Japan so they can throw them into camps. Stalin also created fear of "capitalist sleeper cells" (..hmm "sleeper cells" where have I heard that before..) living quietly in society, but when given a secret signal, they would all rise up to destroy society.

I'm sure you can think up a few other examples of people targeted by the state. So why don't you do the right thing and decry this fucking bullshit, instead of justifying and defending it, ehh comrade?

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 12:02 PM

fine... i concede - you are all geniuses... all cops are ignorant pigs and clearly this memo is meant to say "treat all libertarians like terrorists..." happy? have fun in your imagined police state, they'll be kicking down your doors any minute for exposing their 'truths' via the interwebs...

Nukegrrrl

03-13-2009, 12:05 PM

have fun in your imagined police state, they'll be kicking down your doors any minute for exposing their 'truths' via the interwebs...If you mean the backdoors to our computers then yes, we'll have a jolly good time.

HexRei

03-13-2009, 12:05 PM

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 12:16 PM

it's a sure sign you just lost the debate when you resort to this kind of dismissive hyperbole.

i think you should really take a long hard look at your sig... the problem is that too many people feel that they are "locked in here with them" and some of us understand that is they who are locked in here with us. again - perception... and i used hyperbole only as a direct response to hyperbole... not all cops are beating 15 yr old girls in holding cells. that is just fucking retarded.

HexRei

03-13-2009, 12:28 PM

i think you should really take a long hard look at your sig... the problem is that too many people feel that they are "locked in here with them" and some of us understand that is they who are locked in here with us. again - perception... lol you are psychoanalyzing a quote from a comic book. pretty poor attempt to change the subject.

and i used hyperbole only as a direct response to hyperbole... not all cops are beating 15 yr old girls in holding cells. that is just fucking retarded. sweet, more worthless hyperbole! unless you can show me who in this thread said all cops are "beating 15 yr old girls in holding cells".

why are you even bothering to continue in this thread?

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 12:34 PM

lol you are psychoanalyzing a quote from a comic book. pretty poor attempt to change the subject.

the subject is perception and the quote fits regardless of its origin.

sweet, more worthless hyperbole! unless you can show me who in this thread said all cops are "beating 15 yr old girls in holding cells".

See - "It's these cops who are the ones enacting violence every god dammed day, they are adrenaline junkies who *enjoy* hurting people and causing fights. " and the hyperlink he pasted goes to what?

why are you even bothering to continue in this thread?

touche...

k1e0x

03-13-2009, 12:34 PM

sweet, more worthless hyperbole! unless you can show me who in this thread said all cops are "beating 15 yr old girls in holding cells".

No, thats me, I referred to it as an example (by linkage) of how I believe police are the ones who are violent thugs.

And no, I don't believe they are kicking in doors etc.. I believe they are trying to paint a picture of liberty lovers, anti fed, and truthers groups as being violent neo-nazi groups. Your defending their actions in a variety of ways.. why? What in you makes you do this?

Roddimus

03-13-2009, 12:49 PM

have fun in your imagined police state, they'll be kicking down your doors
oh, you mean like how the feds were kicking down doors, taking people's guns and forcibly removing them from their houses after katrina? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhvV2uz10eA)
i must have quite the vivid imagination!

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 12:57 PM

And no, I don't believe they are kicking in doors etc.. I believe they are trying to paint a picture of liberty lovers, anti fed, and truthers groups as being violent neo-nazi groups. Your defending their actions in a variety of ways.. why? What in you makes you do this?

everyone is entitled to their opinion. i, for one, know a lot of police officers who are good, honest people. some of them got all the way to retirement without pulling their weapons and they all attribute this to social awareness/cultural sensitivity. i've also got a family friend who became a cop to "make a difference" after being tear-gassed and beaten in berkeley in the 60's.

that being said - i don't condone violence or profiling BUT i am defending those officers who are better served with information rather than a lack of information and HOPE that they are intelligent enough to use that information to see the forest past the trees...

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 01:00 PM

oh, you mean like how the feds were kicking down doors, taking people's guns and forcibly removing them from their houses after katrina? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhvV2uz10eA)
i must have quite the vivid imagination!

jesus... pull apart what you need to if it makes you feel better, but i already addressed that here (http://www.nwtekno.org/showpost.php?p=2390551&postcount=59).

HexRei

03-13-2009, 01:19 PM

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 01:39 PM

I'm more scared of the army in our streets than cops, actually. There used to be this crazy idea that the army was for fighting our enemies, now all of a sudden they are for policing our citizens too. All facilitated by the steady militarization of our police. They conditioned us to think cops with assault rifles, grenades, and and full body armor are normal, it's only a tiny hop from that riot cop to actual soldiers.

there is some truth in that statement - we see the media portraying SWAT teams and the like as heroes on the 5 o'clock news, defusing bombs and taking out the armed maniacs. what we don't see are the stories of a single patrol officer showing up to a dv and arresting the thug who beats up his girl, or the cop taking the homeless heroin addict to the downtown emergency service center for a shower and a meal (i have actually seen this happen)... but when the stories about a single cop comes on, it is usually about the one abusing his or her power. and the majority of the public doesn't go past what they see on tv and think that the only good cops are SWAT and become complacent with that image. and if that is a real concern to you, then do something about it.

k1e0x

03-13-2009, 01:39 PM

HexRei

03-13-2009, 02:02 PM

there is some truth in that statement - we see the media portraying SWAT teams and the like as heroes on the 5 o'clock news, defusing bombs and taking out the armed maniacs. what we don't see are the stories of a single patrol officer showing up to a dv and arresting the thug who beats up his girl, or the cop taking the homeless heroin addict to the downtown emergency service center for a shower and a meal (i have actually seen this happen)... but when the stories about a single cop comes on, it is usually about the one abusing his or her power. and the majority of the public doesn't go past what they see on tv and think that the only good cops are SWAT and become complacent with that image. and if that is a real concern to you, then do something about it.

I think the problem is that for most people, those actual hero cop situations are quite rare, while negative run-ins tend to be common, especially if you are sick social deviant like a raver, or just someone who likes to smoke a bowl every once in a while. I have literally never in my life been helped by a cop, only hassled. I think a lot of others have had a similar experience.

dj plantlife

03-13-2009, 02:14 PM

I think the problem is that for most people, those actual hero cop situations are quite rare, while negative run-ins tend to be common, especially if you are sick social deviant like a raver, or just someone who likes to smoke a bowl every once in a while. I have literally never in my life been helped by a cop, only hassled. I think a lot of others have had a similar experience.

fair enough... having worked with the homeless though, i've had more good experiences than bad. in georgetown, seattle, there are just too many bums to harass, so the cops are actually just there to protect and serve. the cops knew all the homeless by name and knew when to stay back and when to intervene. but even in that situation, there was one officer out of the 10 or so patrolling the area whom all the homeless hated. i think it is sufficient to say - cops are people - some are nice, some are assholes.

k1e0x

03-13-2009, 02:16 PM

everyone is entitled to their opinion. i, for one, know a lot of police officers who are good, honest people. some of them got all the way to retirement without pulling their weapons and they all attribute this to social awareness/cultural sensitivity. i've also got a family friend who became a cop to "make a difference" after being tear-gassed and beaten in berkeley in the 60's.

that being said - i don't condone violence or profiling BUT i am defending those officers who are better served with information rather than a lack of information and HOPE that they are intelligent enough to use that information to see the forest past the trees...

Yeah, all the helpful peace loving police officers.. I'm sure we have all known a few cops. The question you have to ask is.. if they didn't know you, would they bash your head in with a billy club for fun? I believe adrenaline is just like an addictive drug. It produces a high, but it requires heaver dosages for the addict to achieve that high. Like drug addicts they do things they normally wouldn't to achieve that high, they create dangerous environments on purpose.. You know a few people back from Iraq? Some of them have this problem too, they are adrenaline junkies.. they like to start fights (usually when drunk, but still they *like* it). I also believe that corruption rises through the ranks, because I believe the good cops eventually get disgusted and quit (or fired).

Police only know how to escalate a situation. When was the last time you seen a police deescalate an encounter? They are not trained to deescalate, they are not "peace" officers. They often willfully lie and try to trick people in order to get them to comply.

There are many good police officers out there who I'm sure would jump in front of a bullet.. however I believe they are a threat because you can't tell them apart. I mean I'm at the point now where I would really hesitate calling the police for any reason at all. For instance if I found a body, I would be scared the police would try to arrest me for murder.

The time my girlfriends car caught fire and she called the 911 the police came out and the first thing out of their mouth, before the fire was out was. "Your the owner? Who could have done this to you?" That guys first inclination was to arrest someone even though no crime was commuted, he didn't even seem to care to try to figure out of there had been a crime commuted. Then he got a attitude when she asked him for identification, and started getting mean and asking her all kinds of questions. So there they are, her car is on fire and shes arguing with a police officer trying to tell him it's not a crime. I think she told him eventually something like "We didn't even call you we called the fire department because we had a fire, we want them here, you can leave any time you like."

Be careful out there.. Like it or not, even if you want to believe you live in a perfect world.. police *are* extremely dangerous.. Learn their tricks.. if they tell you to do something that you already are doing.. like say.. put your hands behind your back.. and your hands already are behind your back.. then get ready.. because your about to be tazed for that assholes own sadistic amusement.

Edit: Another issue you have that I forgot to mention is from the Stanford Prison Experiment, and they found that people who have no inherent sadistic tenancies DEVELOP sadistic tenancies when put in positions of power over other people. When someone is given so called "legitimate" authority over others it has serious psychological effects on that person.

(append to next)

k1e0x

03-13-2009, 02:19 PM

Here are some things you should be aware of..

From Copwatch: (and we know about them)

Focus on Seattle and Washington State:

1)Washington State cops have succeeded in siphoning off $12 billion in public funds to line their own pockets: That the cops in Washington State are avaricious, manipulative, and untrustworthy has become abundantly clear. Their latest caper almost defies belief: they've conned (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134560541_pension23m.html) the gullible public into handing over $1.37 BILLION in taxpayer funds over 4 years ($12 billion over 25 years). This money doesn't go to police departments or any other government entity, but into their own pockets. This is the moral equivalent of white-collar crime, and callously takes advantage of the citizens' ignorance and naive goodwill.
2) KEYSTONE KOPS IN SEATTLE: A police impersonator steals a squadcar and runs amok, threatening civilians all over town. Two other squadcars engage in a pursuit. Two of the real cops mistake the other real cop for the impersonator (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=davis13m&date=20010713&query=police+mistakenly+seattle) and ram his car. All three real cops exchange gunfire. However, NONE of these poorly trained cops manage to hit their intended targets, and no one is injured. (If only the frequent civilian victims of police gunfire could be so lucky).
3) Recording the cops is LEGAL throughout the entire state of Washington (both overtly and covertly): We've been hearing numerous horror stories describing the illegal tactics utilized by Seattle (and Puyallup) cops when they realize they are being video and/or audio taped. Apparently, many officers (including, among others, Off Alan P. Carr, Sgt. Edward A. Striedinger, Det. Donna J. O'Neal, Off Ann Martin, Off Deborah D. Brooks, and Ofr. Michael Korner), have falsely claimed that it is illegal to audiotape them without their permission, and have threatened to arrest and jail anyone who persists in doing so. (Further information regarding these officers will be forthcoming soon. All parties are innocent until proven guilty). Despite the dismal reputation of the SPD, it still defies belief that these cops could be SO stupid and SO ill-trained as to actually believe what they say-- it seems far more likely that they are deliberately misrepresenting the law in an effort to intimidate the citizenry. To set the record straight, it is legal to record the cops in Washington State. (http://www.copwatch.org/statevflora.htm)

*(To protect ourselves from frivolous lawsuits, our lawyers insist that we inform readers that nothing on this site may be relied upon as legal advice).

4) SEATTLE HANDBILLS: The Seattle City Council recently adopted a new poster ordinance. (http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/%7Escripts/nph-brs.exe?d=CBOR&s1=114382.cbn.&Sect6=HITOFF&l=20&p=1&u=/%7Epublic/cbor2.htm&r=1&f=G) The ordinance provides that: 'Handbills, signs and posters may be affixed to City-owned utility poles, lamp poles and traffic control devices under the control of the Seattle Department of Transportation, except for freestanding stop signs and yield signs, and their posts, in accordance the rules promulgated by the Director of the Seattle Department of Transportation''

We LOVE having Copwatch.com handbills placed where the public (and the police) can see them. If you decide to post some of these handbills, we cannot stop you, and the City cannot hold us responsible for removing them. Any party who posts these handbills is doing so under their own volition, presumably for the Constitutionally-protected purpose of expressing their agreement with our political views, (though it is possible that they could be doing so in an effort to make it appear as though the organization is breaking a local law). Copwatch.com is not asking or directing any individual(s) to post any handbills, but we cannot prevent persons who are not under our direction or control from doing so. (The foregoing is explicitly stated because the new SDOT rules will probably require that the party whose name appears on the posters remove them within a given time period). For your convenience, we've created a few handbills tailored specifically for Seattle and Washington State. You can download these handbills using Adobe PDF (simply print from your screen onto regular-size paper). What you do with them is entirely up to you.

SEATTLE POSTER 1 (http://www.copwatch.org/Poster1.pdf) WASHINGTON STATE POSTER 1 (http://www.copwatch.org/Poster2.pdf)
WASHINGTON STATE POSTER 2 (http://www.copwatch.org/Poster3.pdf)

CASH REWARD: An anonymous donor has offered a $50.00 postal money order for videotape of a Seattle police officer removing a Copwatch.com
handbill from a telephone pole, light pole, or traffic control pole.

5) SPD takes revenge on citizen who won settlement in civil rights case. A man who settled (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=settlement26m&date=20020326&query=Kenyatto) an $11 million false arrest/police brutality case against the SPD is pepper-sprayed, beaten, arrested, and jailed (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/82173_garrett10.shtml) 'FOR JAYWALKING! Is this the punishment meted out by the SPD when someone dares to make a cop uncomfortable (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=copsuit03m&date=20011103&query=Kenyatto) by seeking justice? Are Officers James Lee and James Shearer the SPD's designated hit-men? 6) The Seattle Police Union is more interested in making money than in saving lives: cops take legal action to prevent the Fire Department from conducting underwater rescues. (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=fire&date=19990625&query=police+fire+dive+rescue) Although the SPD dive team is notoriously ineffectual, the cops insist upon preserving their monopoly on underwater rescues. In practice, the cops do nothing but remove the body from the water: two people die because the cops won't allow firemen to conduct underwater rescues. (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=divered14&date=20000914&query=police+fire+dive+rescue) The firemen, on the other hand, are selflessly heroic: a Seattle fireman risks his life (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=powl02m&date=20000902&query=police+fire+dive+rescue) trying to save a drowning victim, while the cops rake in the cash for doing nothing.

According to the Seattle Times, (http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=powl02m&date=20000902&query=police+fire+dive+rescue)

'When someone calls 911 to report a possible drowning, the Fire Department typically arrives within five minutes, according to five years of response-time data compiled by the Fire Department. But without scuba gear, firefighters can't try to dive underwater and locate someone who could possibly be revived. Instead, they must wait for police divers, who often take 30 minutes to arrive, although exact figures had not been released by the department as of yesterday.
Hoping to capitalize on its rapid-response time, the Fire Department trained its own dive team last year. But the unit was scrapped after just one week of operation when the Police Guild filed a grievance with the state Public Employment Relations Board.

7) King County deputy gets away with murder? (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/87055_robert14.shtml)

8) Seattle police reveal their innate cowardice and complete lack of humanity- refuse to intervene as a young man is beaten to death by vicious racists. City pays victim's family $1.75 million rather than let a jury hear the facts regarding cops' reprehensible negligence.

'Police ' stood along the perimeter of the crowd and watched as the wounded pleaded for help. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/82652_kime14ww.shtml) Police commanders ordered officers to stand by, fearing any move would only incite the crowd further and endanger the officers.'

9) Seattle cops under criminal investigation for widespread cheating on promotional exam. City cancels public meeting regarding the problem, and tries to cover up the scandal. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/78240_exam12.shtml) Unsurprisingly, the local police union wants the results to stand regardless of cheating. Sgt. Kevin Haistings, vice president of the Seattle Police Officers Guild (the Police Union), says "We would like to see the test preserved as it is because of the time it takes officers to prepare".

Roddimus

03-13-2009, 02:43 PM

everyone is entitled to their opinion. i, for one, know a lot of police officers who are good, honest people.
i agree, especially since it was a cop who leaked this report to jones.

djed

03-13-2009, 06:26 PM

i think this sounds like yet another degree of facism.

but srsly, zeitgeist is f-ing retarded

Roddimus

03-13-2009, 07:52 PM

yeah, the whole new age futurist movement that suddenly popped up behind it is definitely...a futurist movement.

Ultradella

03-14-2009, 05:26 AM

y'all have scattered a bunch of interesting ideas around in this thread. my foremost contribution must be this:
i am living in a country where insulting the national identity is actually a felony offense, which starkens the value (and tenuousity) of liberty. i think it is very american to express one's individual identity, be it related to religious beliefs, taste in music, feelings about the government, or fashion sense; be it through bumperstickers, tee-shirts, theme parties, or soapbox speeches. i therefore encourage everyone to engage in healthy debate and make one's own only self known.

the flip side of this is, you have to be prepared to defend your self-expression on a certain issue and put in in the context of your own self milieu. If you wear a shirt with an anarchist symbol on it, expect to have lots of conversations about whether you are an anarchist or not, whether you have anything in common with the punks wearing anarchy-symbol shirts who started those there riots a few years back, and what that symbol means to you. if you have a "ron paul for president" flag in your front yard, be ready to explain why he would be the best leader of our nation, both to fellow supporters and to ralph nader fans.

that which we consume, and that which we display, helps define us; sometimes this can come in handy (like when i could know if someone was a raver--and thereby a friend-- from the bracelets that they sported) and sometimes it can be used as attempted shorthand by people in power (like when cops put out bulletins saying glowsticks are drug paraphanelia.) that's the double-edgedness of symbols/conspicuous consumption--these can identify you as like-minded to like-minded individuals, but it also will be used to identify you as "other" by those who don't share nor agree with your positions.

burnt

03-14-2009, 08:23 AM

word. I guess thats Roddimus was so butthurt about this article and this police department's practice. I guess thats why I agree with him.

because right now its a cherished American tradition to talk as much shit as we want about whoever we want, and not worry about getting hassled by the fucking pigs - like they do in Kazahkstan or wherever - and when cops publish some bullshit that says "pull over all the Ron Paul fans because they're terrorists" .... well, that *DEFINITELY* meets the description of a "slippery slope". thats definitely how the Uzbekis roll. and fuck that. there's a reason we outsource our waterboarding to Eastern Europe instead of taking care of it at home. because we're better than that.

ultimate strawman argument right thurr, ftw. ;)

Andromeda.

03-14-2009, 07:52 PM

well, maybe it's crazy not to be livid about some things. Who says passivity isn't crazy?

oh i agree...passion and anger can be great motivational forces for positive change. passivity can be incredibly crazy in itself -- i picture a THX1138 world with everyone all lulled into a passive, oppressed "perfect" slumber. you're right about that.

i guess i'm thinking of something from a little bit different place than that.

have you ever stumbled across a person who...absolutely just sounded batshit fucking crazy and their beliefs just didn't add up, like, at all? and the more you tried to figure out their beliefs or point out something that didn't add up, the more completely frenzied and ridiculous and hardheaded they got about it instead of actually stopping to think?

there's a difference between people are are super passionate about their beliefs, and people with a seriously extremist mindset. the term in itself to me already implies that they aren't thinking rationally -- they're thinking in extremes only.

I'm pretty sure dogmatic, doctrinaire, people exist at every end of the socio-political spectrum...left, right, center, etc.

I don't buy this idea that centrism is less fanatical, or that centrists are more rational.

ah. i get it now. i see where plantlife was referring to L vs. R extremism but i was more commenting on extremism in general regardless of party.

even though i did rant about my fucking crazy R-wing neighbor lol

Andromeda.

03-14-2009, 07:56 PM

have fun in your imagined police state, they'll be kicking down your doors any minute for exposing their 'truths' via the interwebs...

. . . "imagined"?

/complete disbelief

Mortal Grey

03-15-2009, 08:21 PM

let me clarify - i am not condoning apathy. i am huge supporter of standing up for yourself when the time comes. if you are a part of a group that is ACTUALLY being profiled/harassed/murdered/robbed/cheated (the list goes on), by all means - rally the fucking troops... BUT shit like this is retarded IMHO... it is one person's fatalist take on a memo that has nothing to do with them. the american gestapo isn't kicking in my door for my beliefs nor are they rounding up libertarians. when they do, get back to me and i'll be the first to join the front lines of the revolution.

I'm not trying to attack you, but I do think that this statement is a bit of a contradiction. Looking the other way while injustices are being committed, despite the fact that they don't directly affect you, is the definition of being apathetic. In my opinion, out duties as American citizens (if not patriots) is to stand up for not only ourselves, but other fellow citizens in the event of social or any other type of injustice. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this particular incident, but I really do believe that it is a perfect example of our government abusing it's power in an attempt to keep the population in control, and therefore unable to protect itself from the same people that profit from it's corruption.

Plerr

03-16-2009, 12:19 PM

have you ever stumbled across a person who...absolutely just sounded batshit fucking crazy and their beliefs just didn't add up, like, at all? and the more you tried to figure out their beliefs or point out something that didn't add up, the more completely frenzied and ridiculous and hardheaded they got about it instead of actually stopping to think?

there's a difference between people are are super passionate about their beliefs, and people with a seriously extremist mindset. the term in itself to me already implies that they aren't thinking rationally -- they're thinking in extremes only.[/b]

Well, I think an argument could be made that quite often...very common and widely held viewpoints/beliefs fit the criteria for "extremist' that you described above. Conversely, people who have historically rejected those viewpoints were described as extremists and radicals in their day. Take for example Galileo, John Brown, even MLK etc etc.

Today there's no argument that Galileo and Copernicus were right, and virtualy no one supports segregation or slavery anymore.
Okay well, I think history demonstrates pretty clearly that entire societies and entire cultures can be literally psychotic. And that these people will inherently deem anyone who challenges their belief/social structures to be an "extremist"....even if that person is talking about liberation from clear examples of oppression, or something as obvious as the orbits of planets.

So, my point is that just because someone may be very far from the socio-philosophical center - they may not be irrational or extreme at all...

...It may be the center, that is extreme and irrational.

Additionally, there is a popular sentiment that the far-left and far-right meet somehow philosophically or in their "extremism". I don't think anything could be further from the truth, and that the far-left/far-right couldn't be further/opposite from each other in virtually every meaningful way...hence the polarization.

HexRei

03-16-2009, 12:30 PM

Okay well, I think history demonstrates pretty clearly that entire societies and entire cultures can be literally psychotic.

You only say this for shock value, not because its literally true. A society can only be "psychotic" in a vague metaphorical sense, like calling humanity a "cancer" (I mean hey, we arose from the collective organism of the earth itself, we are reproducing at runaway rates and are slowly but surely killing and replacing its other living elements with ourselves, and that process is doing nothing but harm- BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WE ARE LITERALLY A CANCER). Sure, you can analogize elements of the criterion but ultimately its just a metaphor and does not actually mean that our culture is psychotic in a literal sense, any more than we are literally a cancer. "Culture" is already a massive abstract generalization.

djed

03-16-2009, 12:34 PM

i am what i am. it is what it is.

tr0llaccount

03-16-2009, 12:59 PM

Well, I think an argument could be made that quite often...very common and widely held viewpoints/beliefs fit the criteria for "extremist' that you described above. Conversely, people who have historically rejected those viewpoints were described as extremists and radicals in their day. Take for example Galileo, John Brown, even MLK etc etc.

Today there's no argument that Galileo and Copernicus were right, and virtualy no one supports segregation or slavery anymore.

i think proving something mathematically/scientifically is VERY different (incomparable really) than proving something morally/ethically.

Additionally, there is a popular sentiment that the far-left and far-right meet somehow philosophically or in their "extremism". I don't think anything could be further from the truth, and that the far-left/far-right couldn't be further/opposite from each other in virtually every meaningful way...hence the polarization.

while i agree that the substance of the extremes are different (duh), the practices (for lack of a better word) can be pretty similar: lack of reasoning/logic, inability to consider possibilities/options at odds with their beliefs, etc.

Boyd Main

03-16-2009, 01:54 PM

Roddimus

03-16-2009, 02:04 PM

Fucking hell, does watching Zietgeist and liking Ron Paul make you fucking retarded? 'Cos anyone who is truly upset by that report is fucking retarded. It's about militant, violent militias, people who want to blow up buildings and kill public servants. It's not about libertarians, or Ron Paul supporters. It's about people who are planning criminal acts.

Plantlife had it right. There is a serious failure of reading comprehension and logic here.

If most or some A are B, that doesn't say shit about whether B are A or not. Basic logic here people. Maybe the tinfoil hat is constricting the blood flow to your brain? Maybe your paranoia is coloring your ability to perceive things clearly? Or maybe you are fucking retarded?
please name one rock solid example that would justify describing zeitgeist or freedom to fascism as "media common to" people who are planning criminal acts.
the turner diaries, yeah, i get that. violent militias are all over that shit's nuts.
but freedom to fascism? bob fucking barr? since when have those people/media EVER been directly associated with violent militias?
and don't feed me that "well militias share the same libertarian ideas as those things" bullshit. unless you can provide me with some shred of evidence that violent militias are using freedom to fascism in the same way they've used the turner diaries, i will continue to view this report as the obvious attempt to malign and profile libertarians that it is.

Boyd Main

03-16-2009, 02:33 PM

please name one rock solid example that would justify describing zeitgeist or freedom to fascism as "media common to" people who are planning criminal acts.
the turner diaries, yeah, i get that. violent militias are all over that shit's nuts.
but freedom to fascism? bob fucking barr? since when have those people/media EVER been directly associated with violent militias?
and don't feed me that "well militias share the same libertarian ideas as those things" bullshit. unless you can provide me with some shred of evidence that violent militias are using freedom to fascism in the same way they've used the turner diaries, i will continue to view this report as the obvious attempt to malign and profile libertarians that it is.

I don't have any solid examples. I don't know those movies. I don't know any militant separatists. I do, however, believe in Hanlon's Razor:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

But... let's say you are correct. Let's imagine that this report was written as an attempt to profile libertarians. Don't you think the author would have listed libertarianism as the first of the six listed ideologies? Instead, it's not even there (save for something called 'sovereign citizens'). In fact, if you were actually reading this document impartially, you should be up in arms about it profiling Christians and pro-lifers. They get more print upfront than libertarians. But, back to the hypothetical - if this really were a document out to malign the libertarian movement, wouldn't the libertarian movement be mentioned in one of the first six pages as being connected on a philospohical or ideological level with militias, and not just in passing in the final two pages in connection with a subset of militants?

I think you are displaying a bit of a persecution complex here that says more about you than it does about some possibly misinformed intelligence analyst in Missouri.

Roddimus

03-16-2009, 02:40 PM

But... let's say you are correct. Let's imagine that this report was written as an attempt to profile libertarians. Don't you think the author would have listed libertarianism as the first of the six listed ideologies?
you're right, they just listed all the people and films modern libertarians (and zero known militias) avidly support. i guess that proves there's nothing to be concerned or upset about!
so if a report comes out saying ELF terrorists watch michael moore movies, listen to democracy now, protest wars, vote green party and campaign for universal health care, i trust you won't be upset or concerned?

Plerr

03-16-2009, 02:41 PM

You only say this for shock value, not because its literally true. A society can only be "psychotic" in a vague metaphorical sense, like calling humanity a "cancer" (I mean hey, we arose from the collective organism of the earth itself, we are reproducing at runaway rates and are slowly but surely killing and replacing its other living elements with ourselves, and that process is doing nothing but harm- BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WE ARE LITERALLY A CANCER). Sure, you can analogize elements of the criterion but ultimately its just a metaphor and does not actually mean that our culture is psychotic in a literal sense, any more than we are literally a cancer. "Culture" is already a massive abstract generalization.

I'm not saying it for shock value.

Would you prefer it if I said " x-culture/society exhibits traits and values which - if manifesting in an individual - would be defined as psychotic?

Do I really need to be that precise?

Plerr

03-16-2009, 02:49 PM

i think proving something mathematically/scientifically is VERY different (incomparable really) than proving something morally/ethically.

Well, I never said or implied the two things were the same.

while i agree that the substance of the extremes are different (duh), the practices (for lack of a better word) can be pretty similar: lack of reasoning/logic, inability to consider possibilities/options at odds with their beliefs, etc.

I don't agree that the outcomes are the same, or there is a "lack of reasoning/logic, inability to consider possibilities/options at odds with their beliefs" the further left/right one goes. There are people who exhibit that sort of staunch, stubborness across the socio-philosophical spectrum...and in my personal opinion the further right one goes the more one finds that sort of thing exponentially. (ipso facto, less, the more left one goes)

Boyd Main

03-16-2009, 03:03 PM

so if a report comes out saying ELF terrorists watch michael moore movies, listen to democracy now, protest wars, vote green party and campaign for universal health care, i trust you won't be upset or concerned?

If the first six pages of the report was all about ELF terrorists' past, current and future actions, their methods and training, their ideology and motivations, and their potential targets, then quite frankly no I wouldn't be upset or concerned. Even if those associations were right at the front of the report I would be more amused than concerned.

Just like I wouldn't be concerned, as someone who lives in the Rainier Valley, if I heard that the SPD put out an internal memo on the current gang related murders in Seattle stating that most suspects live the Rainier Valley.

Just like I am not concerned, as a middling-aged white male, that it's a known profile for serial killers to be middling-aged white males.

Roddimus

03-16-2009, 03:07 PM

Just like I wouldn't be concerned, as someone who lives in the Rainier Valley, if I heard that the SPD put out an internal memo on the current gang related murders in Seattle stating that most suspects live the Rainier Valley.
yes, because there are known gang murders in rainier valley.
how many known militias are passing out a movie made by a jew or another movie that destroys christian mythology in the first 30 minutes?

Boyd Main

03-16-2009, 03:29 PM

how many known militias are passing out a movie made by a jew or another movie that destroys christian mythology in the first 30 minutes?

I have no idea. Do you? Is it possible that a criminal analyst might have a better idea then either of us?

Given what I've learned in the last couple of days about militias in the US and the content of Zeitgeist, I wouldn't be surprised if it was popular amongst certain militia types.

But again - the real issue I want to point out is that the report does not say, nor even imply, that libertarians, Barr supporters, or zeitgeists fan are terrorists.

Mortal Grey

03-16-2009, 03:58 PM

But again - the real issue I want to point out is that the report does not say, nor even imply, that libertarians, Barr supporters, or zeitgeists fan are terrorists.

What it does do is profile those that support different ideologies than themselves as threats, by basically stating that: militias are ready to kill you, and these are their insignias...

When exercising your rights [freedom of expression] can lead to you being profiled as a threat to this government... there can be unwanted and unnecessary consequences. Many people in law enforcement and obviously the government as a whole are violent and paranoid enough without this kind of rhetoric fueling their fears and insecurities.

k1e0x

03-16-2009, 04:16 PM

I'm going to break in again and say the liberty movement has nothing to do with violence and extremism, the two are incompatible. True some men may decide to defend themselves from the state, but thats not an act of aggression, it's a response to aggression being used.

Nobody in any liberty movement anywhere that I've ever heard of believe in attacking citizens, the very though is crazy. The idiotic 0.01% that might fire on a police officer believe they are acting in self defense, and they end up taking themselves out of the gene pool very quickly without ever sparking off the second revolution that they so much hoped to be a martyr for. (you'll probbly find the same ratio of crazy nuts in every group.)

So.. to recap, even *if* it were true, and even if it were a "growing problem", they are only a danger to the state when the state uses force on someone.. and every cop out there better be damn well aware and fucking careful about using force on anyone.. people do have a right to defend themselves, even from police, even for breaking the law. Laws are not always moral, they are not always just, and you always have a right to protect yourself from an attacker no matter what type of hat he has on or what it says on his car. They should knock before kicking in that door.. for their own protection not ours. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/atlanta.police.sentencing/index.html#cnnSTCText)

You don't think this is outrageous? What if the government put out a pamphlet that said:
People who listen to electronic music are drug addicts.

(or "Drug addicts are people who listen to electronic music." Ya know, it's funny but that statement still seems to piss me off either way.)

so if a report comes out saying ELF terrorists watch michael moore movies, listen to democracy now, protest wars, vote green party and campaign for universal health care, i trust you won't be upset or concerned?

Yeah.. we gotta do something bout them Elf Terrorists! Let's arrest Al Gore! lol

I think people who don't see this as a problem just want to pretend we are not descending into the black depths of a police state. Department of Homeland Security... anyone..? Hello..? Don't worry arguing about this little pamphlet when we have internal citizen checkpoints, total destruction of the 4th amendment, and prison without trail.

Roddimus

03-16-2009, 05:52 PM

I have no idea. Do you? Is it possible that a criminal analyst might have a better idea then either of us?
haha, criminal analyst, that's great. is that what they're calling fear mongering federal agents these days?
Given what I've learned in the last couple of days about militias in the US and the content of Zeitgeist, I wouldn't be surprised if it was popular amongst certain militia types.
pffft, haha, fucking shit, which one, the age of aquarius militia?
But again - the real issue I want to point out is that the report does not say, nor even imply, that libertarians, Barr supporters, or zeitgeists fan are terrorists.
no, just that terrorists are zeitgeist fans and barr supporters. and i'm totally sure it's true too. the government wouldn't lie to protect or further itself. it never has before right?

tr0llaccount

03-16-2009, 07:18 PM

Well, I never said or implied the two things were the same.

yeah i suppose you didn't, other than the whole putting-galileo-and-mlk-in-the-same-sentence-as-examples-of-how-people's-opinions-have-changed-over-time thing.

I don't agree that the outcomes are the same, or there is a "lack of reasoning/logic, inability to consider possibilities/options at odds with their beliefs" the further left/right one goes. There are people who exhibit that sort of staunch, stubborness across the socio-philosophical spectrum...and in my personal opinion the further right one goes the more one finds that sort of thing exponentially. (ipso facto, less, the more left one goes)

hmm, an admittedly far left person says that their side is "right" far more often than the other side... i'd say that this does a pretty good job of proving my point. :D

(although i do agree that you see this sort of thing across the spectrum. it's just much more common the farther you get on either side.)

Plerr

03-16-2009, 07:39 PM

yeah i suppose you didn't, other than the whole putting-galileo-and-mlk-in-the-same-sentence-as-examples-of-how-people's-opinions-have-changed-over-time thing.

That sounds sort of mordant? Isn't it what your sentence says, not who you put in them..that should matter? I gave examples of people who are revered today, that were once labeled extremists. I never implied (or said) "proving something mathematically/scientifically" was comparable.

hmm, an admittedly far left person says that their side is "right" far more often than the other side... i'd say that this does a pretty good job of proving my point. :D

Was your point that having a definitive opinion, or not being a nihilist proves something? It goes without saying that my personal opinion is subjective, right? well...

That's my point, about the subjectivity of "extremism". No one thinks of themselves as an "extremist"

(although i do agree that you see this sort of thing across the spectrum. it's just much more common the farther you get on either side.)

Who says? why doesn't it get more extreme the further right you go exponentially? why aren't centrists more extreme than left-wingers (and what does your opinion say about your "point")?

Boyd Main

03-16-2009, 09:33 PM

haha, criminal analyst, that's great. is that what they're calling fear mongering federal agents these days?

Fear mongering? That's rich coming from the instigator of this whole alarmist thread.

k1e0x

03-16-2009, 09:55 PM

Blah blah.. left this and and extreme right that..let me put it this way.

Moderate leftists and moderate conservatives believe in using the same force even the most radical leftest or conservatives do. However.. instead of performing the violence personally they instead use a ballot and get the cops to use the guns for them.

The liberty movement of people like Aaron Russo who's work (Freedom to Fascism) is personally named in the notice is neither right, nor left. Get it through your head, they are something else. They are people who reject force.

There is more out there than right or left, red or blue, coke or pepsi. Once you see this you may see both right and left are as similar as coke or pepsi and they are both wrong for most of the same reasons.

Roddimus

03-17-2009, 06:20 AM

Fear mongering? That's rich coming from the instigator of this whole alarmist thread.
so i guess all those people who were screaming that iraq posed no real threat and that the government's information was false were fear mongers too?
but you seem happy accepting whatever the government says about things you admit to know nothing about.

Boyd Main

03-17-2009, 09:21 AM

so i guess all those people who were screaming that iraq posed no real threat and that the government's information was false were fear mongers too?
but you seem happy accepting whatever the government says about things you admit to know nothing about.

I'm not necessarily accepting it - you might be right that no militias are interested in zeitgeist or have members that vote Libertarian. The veracity of the statement is secondary to the intent, which is our real disagreement.

Okay, running with the Iraq war thing since you brought it up - yes, I was one of those people screaming about the government's lies and intent to go to war. And it was quite obvious at the time that they intended to go to war. They were, you know, saying 'we are going to go to war'. Here, they are not saying 'we are going to start harassing libertarians', that is your paranoid, fear mongering inference.

You seem to be a big fan of evidence, 'solid examples' as you put it earlier. How about you find me some solid examples of police targeting, profiling and harassing innocent law abiding libertarians or freedom from fascism viewers. You might actually persuade me of this 'threat' then, but for now, all i see from you is baseless fear mongering and paranoia.

Roddimus

03-17-2009, 10:19 AM

They were, you know, saying 'we are going to go to war'.
no they weren't. the administration and pentagon were constantly saying before and after the invasion that the "last thing" they wanted to do was go to war, but that saddam "forced" their hand. totally confirmed bullshit of course, but at the time they pushed the "we pursued every other option available before going to war" line endlessly, and more or less still do to this day.
given its track record, it's next to impossible for me to view the government's intent with this report as anything but dubious.
Here, they are not saying 'we are going to start harassing libertarians', that is your paranoid, fear mongering inference.
of course they're not saying that, they're simply saying that cop killing militias are libertarians. i'm sure zero harassment will follow from that logic.
You seem to be a big fan of evidence, 'solid examples' as you put it earlier. How about you find me some solid examples of police targeting, profiling and harassing innocent law abiding libertarians or freedom from fascism viewers.
well considering this report just came out last month there might not be too many documented cases of police going after FTF viewers specifically, but police have harassed innocent people who have stood up for their basic rights before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOHJfY2hQ2c), so i wouldn't be surprised to see them start going after ron paul supporters or anti-NWO demonstrators soon.
but yeah, i guess since there aren't any documented cases of specific harassment against zeitgeist fans, it's perfectly acceptable that the federal government would create and distribute false propaganda that implicates libertarians as potential terrorists.
:rolleyes:

Mortal Grey

03-17-2009, 11:08 AM

How about you find me some solid examples of police targeting, profiling and harassing innocent law abiding libertarians or freedom from fascism viewers. You might actually persuade me of this 'threat' then, but for now, all i see from you is baseless fear mongering and paranoia.

taken from:
http://www.truthnews.us/?p=2724

In July 2007, the Kuhns, a North Carolina couple were terrorized by sheriff’s deputy Brian Scarborough, who broke into their house, assaulted them and then arrested the couple for the crime of flying an upside down U.S. flag.

Buncombe County Sheriff’s deputy Brian Scarborough had just returned from Iraq and according to the Deborah Kuhn, was sent by his staff Sergeant from the local National Guard to “deal with” the Kuhns after a local resident complained about the flag, a fact that was later admitted on TV news. A National Guard soldier in military fatigues had also previously visited the Kuhn’s to harass them about the flag.

Even though Kuhn took the flag down, the officer immediately demanded that the couple show their ID’s and when they refused told them to put their hands behind their back and was about to arrest them before the couple shut and locked the door.

Scarborough then proceeded to kick the door in, “And the next thing we know, the glass is flying, he unlocks the deadbolt and he comes into our house after us,” Kuhn told The Alex Jones Show.

Boyd Main

03-17-2009, 11:25 AM

taken from:
http://www.truthnews.us/?p=2724

In July 2007, the Kuhns, a North Carolina couple were terrorized by sheriff’s deputy Brian Scarborough, who broke into their house, assaulted them and then arrested the couple for the crime of flying an upside down U.S. flag.

Interesting link. There were other examples in there too, including an first hand account of someone being pulled over and searched because of Infowars and Ron Paul bumper stickers.

Hmmm. Well, maybe the report we're discussing is somewhat irresponsible, but I still don't really read it as making the direct claim as Roddimus has spun it in this thread title.

Also, those few examples hardly make a convincing story of this being a systematic push for law enforcement. But sure, maybe this is something to watch out for.

Roddimus

03-17-2009, 11:53 AM

Interesting link. There were other examples in there too, including an first hand account of someone being pulled over and searched because of Infowars and Ron Paul bumper stickers.

Hmmm. Well, maybe the report we're discussing is somewhat irresponsible, but I still don't really read it as making the direct claim as Roddimus has spun it in this thread title.
to be honest i did try to put the word "potential" before "terrorists" but the word limit thwarted my efforts.
but either way, it's best to sound the alarms too early than too late.

HexRei

03-17-2009, 05:00 PM

Also, those few examples hardly make a convincing story of this being a systematic push for law enforcement. But sure, maybe this is something to watch out for.

That's how it starts. How examples is enough for it be taken seriously, exactly?

Boyd Main

03-18-2009, 08:10 AM

That's how it starts. How examples is enough for it be taken seriously, exactly?

A couple of orders of magnitude more. I mean, less than one a year in a nation this size is not indicative of a trend. And if you really dug back, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of police harassments over the flag, as an example, are actually on a declining trend over the past few decades.

k1e0x

03-18-2009, 01:39 PM

Campaign for Libertry has responded to this.

March 17, 2009

Dear Friend of Liberty,

Maybe you've heard, or maybe not, but the Missouri State Police think you might be a security threat.

Why? Because you support Ron Paul and the Campaign for Liberty. Also, because maybe you own guns, oppose abortion or homeschool.

Even, and I'm serious, because you support the U.S. Constitution.

I know, it's ridiculous...and probably steams you a bit.

But here at Campaign for Liberty we are going to give this foolishness the treatment it deserves. More on that in a moment. Let me give you a bit more background.

As you may be aware by now, the Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC) recently released a report titled, "The Modern Militia Movement" to over one thousand Missouri law enforcement officers.

What is the Missouri Information Analysis Center? According to its website (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327039:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC),

"MIAC is the mechanism to collect incident reports of suspicious activities to be evaluated and analyzed in an effort to identify potential trends or patterns of terrorist or criminal operations within the state of Missouri. MIAC will also function as a vehicle for two-way communication between federal, state and local law enforcement community within our region."The MIAC warned officers that violent militia members are "usually" supporters of presidential candidates like Ron Paul and are also known for opposition to things like the Federal Reserve and the income tax.

The "study" was undoubtably written by some university liberal who knows nothing of the hundreds of thousands of Missourians who share our values. I can only imagine how many hundreds of thousands of Missouri tax dollars funded this.

Both Ron Paul and Campaign for Liberty champion principles of freedom, peace, and prosperity. We believe that the Founder's vision for America can be reclaimed through education and peaceful activism. It is a common practice of elitist intellectuals and backroom bureaucrats to attempt to crowd everyone into groups and stick labels on them, especially when it involves those who support a Constitutionally-limited government.

Anthony Gregory, editor-in-chief at Campaign for Liberty, has posted an excellent new article (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327040:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC) on our site concerning government broad-brush fear campaigns.

It is important that we respond in the right way when faced with such a government labeling, and the proper way is to go straight to the top in Missouri.

The way to fight thugs and ignorant people in authority is not to cower or rage, but to proudly proclaim who you are and what you believe.

That's why I urge you to sign our Citizen's Petition here (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327041:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC) today.

Our petition spells out in no uncertain terms who we are and what we believe. And it reminds those in charge of enforcing Missouri's laws that we are citizen activists who will not be intimidated nor embarassed into silence.

Simply owning a gun does not make you a threat. It means you are a free citizen.

Supporting our Constitution does not make you worthy of a watchlist, it makes you a Patriot.

So please, sign our Citizen's Petition today (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327041:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC). Be sure to stay tuned for more information on how we plan to respond to the MIAC.

Finally, I want to ask you a final favor. If you can, please join us next week as we gather in St. Louis for the first Campaign for Liberty Regional Conference (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327042:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC) and show the people of Missouri what Campaign for Liberty truly stands for and represents.

We will be hosting a free event (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327043:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC) on Friday Night with Ron Paul and Judge Andrew Napolitano that is open to the public, and the conference will be highlighted by grassroots training on Saturday, March 28.

Learning how to properly mobilize in order to implement liberty-based legislation is absolutely critical to our success as a movement, and our Regional Conference will provide you with the tools you need as we move forward.

For more information on our Conference, check out our Regional Conference page. For special travel and hotel information, click here (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4327044:5092885480:m:1:379759938:BE2A68B58F77134E4 A95F8C103E472BC).

Liberty is never free, and demands vigilance.

I look forward to seeing you in St. Louis for an exciting weekend of celebration and training!

In Liberty,
http://echo4.bluehornet.com/cimages/57690dd0ad743be205056877a1fe8fe3/tatesig-small.JPG

John Tate
President, Campaign for Liberty

burnt

03-18-2009, 03:23 PM

you know, I built, then baleeted a threads today... and I did it because of threads like this.

the important thing is, my original copypasta was fukken saved and ready to go on /b/

because someday, another kid like Cho is gonna read my delicious copypasta and run with it.

names and home addresses of AIG executives, WHAT?

k1e0x

03-19-2009, 11:59 AM

k1e0x

03-30-2009, 12:21 PM

So get this..

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/64917.html
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — The Missouri Highway Patrol this week retracted a controversial report on militia activity and will change how such reports are reviewed before being distributed to law enforcement agencies.

The Highway Patrol also will open an investigation into the origin of the report, which linked conservative groups with domestic terrorism and named former presidential candidates Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin.

The Highway Patrol’s announcement followed a news conference in which Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder, a Republican, suggested putting the director of public safety on administrative leave and investigating how the report was produced.

The uproar revolves around a report released last month by the Missouri Information Analysis Center, a "fusion center" for local, state and federal law enforcement agencies to collaborate on domestic security issues. The report concerned militia movements in Missouri and across the U.S., and described how they had evolved over the last several years.

The politicians are backpedaling from the report now. I don't however believe that the investigation will produce anything.

Also it claims that the report "linked conservative groups with domestic terrorism". Perhaps the journalist doesn't understand that libertarianism and conservatism are two distinctly diffrent things. I think it's pretty big misconception to say something like that.

Roddimus

04-02-2009, 11:21 AM

one of the top organizers of the campaign for liberty was detained by the TSA, harassed and taken to the police for not answering questions about his private life and finances. luckily he had his cel phone recording the entire thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5Dh1ZkPBL0

the recording is disturbing. listening to it is like hearing a stasi agent demanding to see someone's papers.

B_tech

04-02-2009, 11:53 AM

The politicians are backpedaling from the report now. I don't however believe that the investigation will produce anything.

Yea... likley because it became public and the stink arose. There are reports like this in departments across the country all the time... maybe this unveiling will curtail some of that shit.

k1e0x

04-03-2009, 01:19 PM

Yea... likley because it became public and the stink arose. There are reports like this in departments across the country all the time... maybe this unveiling will curtail some of that shit.

Well.. there is more to this yet. Apparently the TSA got the report.. Steve Bierfeldt one of the people who work for the Campaign for Liberty was carrying Ron Paul bumper stickers and Campaign for Liberty donations/sales through a TSA checkpoint in St. Louis where he was arrested and harassed.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=14907
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfYwmXgEE58

They get all pissed off because he won't answer their questions but good for him. DO NOT TALK TO POLICE, NEVER EVER EVER EVER TALK TO THEM YOUR NOT REQUIRED TO AND THEY WONT HELP YOU. See this here to see why you should always keep your mouth shut *especially* when your innocent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

(The last time I talked to police I was interviewed for suspicious activity.. know why I talked to him? I asked him for directions.)

sea.envy

04-06-2009, 08:32 PM

Wow. Who knew I was a terrorist!

Good to know. lol

Fucking idiots.

ditto67890

gingerballs

04-16-2009, 08:40 AM

http://silviahartmann.com/background-tile/images/01-carrot-background.jpg
http://www.h4x3d.com/feat/themes/red-apple.jpg
http://www.starmuscle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/poop-1.jpg

Then the gen public goes http://dekerivers.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/shocked-woman_aa039975.jpg

and then before we know it http://www.4strugglemag.org/images/slaves.jpg

Fear, its whats for dinner.

Basically.