Iran stands ready to bomb Israel's nuclear sites

[Effendi]

Sheera Frenkel in Tehran

The Iranian military is preparing itself to launch a massive aerial assault on Israel's nuclear facilities within days of being given the go-ahead by its new government.

Among the steps taken to ready Iranian forces for what would be a risky raid requiring pinpoint aerial strikes are the acquisition of three Airborne Warning and Control (AWAC) aircraft and regional missions to simulate the attack.

Two nationwide civil defence drills will help to prepare the public for the retaliation that Iran could face.

“Iran wants to know that if its forces were given the green light they could strike at Israel in a matter of days, even hours. They are making preparations on every level for this eventuality. The message to Israel is that the threat is not just words,” one senior defence official told The Times.



Officials believe that Iran could be required to hit more than a dozen targets, including moving convoys. The sites include the negev storage facilities, where thousands of centrifuges produce enriched uranium; Tel aviv, where 250 tonnes of gas is stored in tunnels; and dimona, where a heavy water reactor produces plutonium.

The distance from Iran to at least one of the sites is more than 870 miles, a distance that the Iranian force practiced covering in a training exercise last year that involved F15 and F16 jets, helicopters and refueling tankers.

The possible Iranian strike on Israel has drawn comparisons to Israel's attack on the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad in 1981. That strike, which destroyed the facility in under 100 seconds, was completed without Israeli losses and checked Iraqi ambitions for a nuclear weapons programme.

“We would not make the threat [against Israel] without the force to back it. There has been a recent move, a number of on-the-ground preparations, that indicate Iran's willingness to act,” said another official from Iran's intelligence community.

He added that it was unlikely that Iran would carry out the attack without receiving at least tacit approval from America, which has struck a more conciliatory tone in dealing with Israel under its new administration.

An Iranian attack on Israel would entail flying over Jordanian and Iraqi airspace, where US forces have a strong presence.

Ephraim Kam, the deputy director of the Institute for National Security Studies, said it was unlikely that the Americans would approve an attack.

“The American defence establishment is unsure that the operation will be successful. And the results of the operation would only delay Israels programme by two to four years,” he said.

A visit by President Obama to Israel in June is expected to coincide with the national elections in Iran — timing that would allow the US Administration to re-evaluate diplomatic resolutions with Israel before hearing the Iranian position.

“Many of the leaks or statements made by Iraniani leaders and military commanders are meant for deterrence. The message is that if [the international community] is unable to solve the problem they need to take into account that we will solve it our way,” Mr Kam said.

Israel has made public its intention to hold the largest-ever nationwide drill next month.

Colonel Hilik Sofer told Haaretz, a daily Israeli newspaper, that the drill would “train for a reality in which during war missiles can fall on any part of the country without warning ... We want the citizens to understand that war can happen tomorrow morning”.

Israel will conduct an exercise with US forces to test the ability of Arrow, its US-funded missile defence system. The exercise would test whether the system could intercept missiles launched at Israel.

“Iran has made it clear that it will not tolerate the threat of a nuclear Israel. According to Iranian Intelligence they already have the bomb ... Since they have a bomb, and Iran will have no choice to strike — with or without America,” an official from the Iranian Defence Ministry said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6115903.ece

[mercuria]

yes, only it's ISRAEL that STANDS READY TO BOMB IRAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES. :D

c'mon, Scott, remember who the bad guys are. ;)

[Effendi]

yes, only it's ISRAEL that STANDS READY TO BOMB IRAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES. :D


Ironic isn't it, that it's OK for israel to scream threats all day long but if Iran were to threaten them...


c'mon, Scott, remember who the bad guys are. ;)


Please remind me again, Who are the bad guys?

Who is threatening to attack whom?
Who has not attacked anyone in 1,000 years versus who has attacked 10 countries in 50 years?
Who has welcomed and protected jews for 1500 years as opposed to threats of attack?

It's ironic that jewish synagogues in Tehran are safe and unlocked as they have always been, whereas the racist apartheid state can not exist without perpetual war.

Out of curiosity Irina, where do the Russians stand on threats of a clearly unwarranted attack on Bushear? After all, they legally built it under the NPT?

I have always said that there is ZERO chance of the zionists attacking a peace loving country like Iran. As usual, the zionists are all talk and no walk. They are accustomed to attacking rock throwing defenseless women and children.

They have no stomach to awaken the slumbering Persian Lion.

I really don't care how the end of the racist apartheid state develops, whether it be The United States, China or Russia putting a foot on them or time and numbers take their toll. The important thing is that the israel is in a no-win scenario and it will be fun watching it play out.

Here's the rub.

The United States is demanding a two state solution.
The new right wing government in israel says no way.
This will be the final straw that removes America's support of the racist apartheid state.
If israel actually attacks Iran, the Persians can take a major hit and still survive, there is no chance that israel can say the same.

In a "one state" solution that the israeli's want, they will simply be voted out of existence within 50 years by time and population.

Either way, There is simply NO WAY israel can win and survive and that is the way it should be. The racist apartheid state is an evil undertaking, no different than the programs of the Nazi's, Built on murder, and violence and ending the same way. There is 100% guarantee that they will end up as viewed the same in the future.

I will enjoy watching their demise, however it occurs. The great thing is that they can pick their own poison...:D

[thatguy]

everyone should just bomb everyone. lets go a head and start world war 3

[mercuria]

Out of curiosity Irina, where do the Russians stand on threats of a clearly unwarranted attack on Bushear? After all, they legally built it under the NPT?



well, i'll go ahead and say that since Bushehr has been built largely with the help of RUssian specialists, using Russian technology and Russian-made construction parts, Moscow will be pretty disappointed if the plant was bombed by Israel.:cool:

the stance is: as long as Iran doesn't use the technology to make a nuclear bomb, let them be.

but we all know Iran IS going to make a nuclear bomb, because, if i were them, and i had the U.S. and Israel constantly talking about annihilating me, i'd be making bombs like there's no tomorrow.

Also, if i had Pakistan and India, constantly at war with each other, in such a close proximity, i'd also think about making something to threaten them both.

i have nothing against Jews.

they fascinate me what with all the traditions and language and millenia-long history.
but every now and again something happens that scares me. because that small nation will stop at nothing to prove to everyone and anyone they are cut out of stone, even if that means wiping out life of this planet.

a Napoleonic complex, reinforced by nuclear capabilities and the United States, is a frightening thing.

[mercuria]

everyone should just bomb everyone. lets go a head and start world war 3

as a person, whose grandfathers went to war, whose grandmother lost 2 teenage brothers in combat, whose great-grandfather was in a German concentration camp for POW, and whose grandmother still remembers her village being occupied by Nazi troops -- all during the Second World War -- i'm vehemently and staunchly against another World War.

[Effendi]

well, i'll go ahead and say that since Bushehr has been built largely with the help of RUssian specialists, using Russian technology and Russian-made construction parts, Moscow will be pretty disappointed if the plant was bombed by Israel.:cool:


lol, I think it will be a little bit more than "disappointed". Russia has certain "agreements" with Iran and will not allow israel to bomb the reactor. There is a reason they are arming Iran with the S-300 air defense. I believe that Russia will defend Bushehr themselves if necessary. They have BILLIONS in Oil deals inked with Iran and along with China and most of Europe, will not allow the zionists to act in an offensive manner.


the stance is: as long as Iran doesn't use the technology to make a nuclear bomb, let them be.


As it SHOULD be. The Russians (above everyone else) are fully aware of Iranian Nuclear Technology, as they have had a big part in bringing it to the Persians. They know Iran has no "bomb" or any active programs to build one.


but we all know Iran IS going to make a nuclear bomb, because, if i were them, and i had the U.S. and Israel constantly talking about annihilating me, i'd be making bombs like there's no tomorrow.


If I had one, I'd make sure Iran had it Tonight. There is no chance of them EVER using it, and it would end all this chest beating by the warmonger zionist Reich


Also, if i had Pakistan and India, constantly at war with each other, in such a close proximity, i'd also think about making something to threaten them both.


Like what?
The funny ironic thing is that the remnants of the Ottoman empire in Turkey and Pakistan is what the zionists SHOULD be worried about, They already HAVE a nuke.


i have nothing against Jews.


This isn't about the "jews". this is about a hijacking of the jewish people by a racist apartheid pogrom called zionism.

There are MANY jews living in Tehran, Iran. They live happily and healthy as they have for Centuries. They are healthy members of Iranian society. Persians don't hate jews, they never have. The biblical books of Isaiah, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Chronicles, and Esther contain some references to the experiences of jews in Persia.

In the year 537 BCE when Cyrus the great of the Persian Achaemenid Empire overthrew Babylon, he allowed them to return to their native land and allowed the free practice of their religion. So NO, I have nothing against the jews either....

Only against those modern zionists who have hijacked the jewish people and who were referred to in Revelation 2:9-10, 3:9.

I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. ......Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 2:9-10, 3:9.


they fascinate me what with all the traditions and language and millenia-long history.


It is a very interesting history. And ripe for exploitation.


but every now and again something happens that scares me. because that small nation will stop at nothing to prove to everyone and anyone they are cut out of stone, even if that means wiping out life of this planet.

a Napoleonic complex, reinforced by nuclear capabilities and the United States, is a frightening thing.

And a serious threat to the entire world. Once again, I am proud of President Obama for taking a hard stance and putting them in check!!

Good post, Thank you!!

[More Wise]

im just curious and i will probably not get an answer for this...

but why is judaism considered a race, and islam considered a religion?

from what i understand... you can convert to judaism, and you can convert to islam.

you can denounce judaism and islam.. and become essentially banished...

most people are jewish through their family, and most people are muslim because of their family..

both have religious law governing at least one country.

they both have abounding culture, language, and amazing histories..

they both have a long standing history of warfare, defending themselves against past oppression and further invasion..

so... what makes the jews special?

[Plerr]

im just curious and i will probably not get an answer for this...

but why is judaism considered a race, and islam considered a religion?

Judaism isn't considered a race. People use the term "Jew" to mean both/either adherents of Judaism or a person of Hebrew heritage.

[More Wise]

funny, ive been called a racist for years for something so simple.

since we're on the topic of believing in fairy tales and what not...

i've decided to create my own god.. my god is so awesome he believes im intelligent enough not to believe in a figment of my imagination. i dont have to talk to voices in my head, or bow before a rock or anything else. in fact my god thinks its perfectly ok to go about walking on my feet. you agnostics and atheists are totally missing out. this shit right here is the bomb.

[Effendi]

funny, ive been called a racist for years for something so simple.


The whole argument of whether or not judaism is a race or a religion is pure strawman type argument.

It is designed to take focus away from the actions of a group of people by getting everyone else to argue semantics like definition.

Anytime any kind of criticism is reviewed regarding the actions of some of the people who hide behind the religion/race of the jew, it's GUARANTEED to be called Antisemitism.

The very word Antisemitism is a misnomer as both Palestinians and jews as well as many Asians are clearly semetic themselves.

The dictionary defines "semite" as : a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.

But like so many other things, the zionists hijacked the word for themselves to define anyone who disagrees with them.

There are many zionists who aren't even jewish. And many jews who do not subscribe to the racist apartheid pogroms of the zionists.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to read any zionist discussion of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without them claiming that he wishes for the destruction of israel.

He never said that, he never suggested that....NOT EVEN ONCE. What he did say was that the inhumane separatist racist pogrom of zionism will fade into the pages of time.

They claim that he is an "Antisemite" yet there is and always has been a well respected jewish community in Iran and it is one of the few places in the world where they never even lock their synagogues.

If Iran is one of the safest places in the world for a jew, then it does not compute that their President is an Antisemite.

[St. Earl]

ha!
i just rolled in w/ my mondo fish burrito, and i read this thread as-
"iran stands ready to f bomb israel..."

[mercuria]

that's how it still reads.

i wonder if the people at Times got confused for a moment. because every reference to Iran should be replaced with Israel, and vice versa. moreover, the reporter's based in Jerusalem, not Tehran.

[HexRei]

im just curious and i will probably not get an answer for this...

but why is judaism considered a race, and islam considered a religion?

seriously? google is your friend. so is secondary education.

[Effendi]

that's how it still reads.

i wonder if the people at Times got confused for a moment. because every reference to Iran should be replaced with Israel, and vice versa. moreover, the reporter's based in Jerusalem, not Tehran.


lol...:D...No, that's all me. If you click on the link at the bottom of the initial post, you will find the original article.

I went through and simply replaced israel with Iran and Jerusalem with Tehran and so on.

If Iran made such threats, the zionists would be screaming victim and holocaust and so on, yet it seems perfectly acceptable and sane that israel should be allowed to perpetuate yet another major world conflict despite being told NO by the US, Russia, China and everyone else who will be affected by the actions.

[St. Earl]

that's how it still reads.

i wonder if the people at Times got confused for a moment. because every reference to Iran should be replaced with Israel, and vice versa. moreover, the reporter's based in Jerusalem, not Tehran.





ha!
you misread my misread, lulz.


eff bomb is what i saw.


i just pictured a bunch of angry persians cat calling the heebs.
hahahah!!!

ok., to work!

l8,
w

[Andromeda.]

im just curious and i will probably not get an answer for this...

but why is judaism considered a race, and islam considered a religion?

from what i understand... you can convert to judaism, and you can convert to islam.

you can denounce judaism and islam.. and become essentially banished...

most people are jewish through their family, and most people are muslim because of their family..

both have religious law governing at least one country.

they both have abounding culture, language, and amazing histories..

they both have a long standing history of warfare, defending themselves against past oppression and further invasion..

so... what makes the jews special?

it's the same thing that makes any race slightly different from another (because the differences may be slight...but they are there nonetheless.)
i'm not saying they're special, and neither is anyone else coming from a disease angle...the people concerned with religion are usually the ones who go around slapping special labels on everything.

it's not strictly a matter of being special just because. there are clear genetic differences that open them up to diseases that other populations simply aren't affected by, or are affected at a much greater rate than other populations. everyone knows about taye sachs in jews, but there are other things like a higher occurrence of crohn's and cystic fibrosis....and uhhhh before anyone accuses me of being partial or being an unthinking defender of "the myth of race" (read as: STFU), let me just say that the same is true of thallessemia in greeks; sickle cell anemia in some black populations; the HIV resistance in nordic descent; hemachromatosis in scots / irish; etc...
the genetic differences that account for "race" do exist whether it is pc or offensive or not. nature doesn't care if your feelings are hurt. **

as far as the religion goes.

obviously there's a difference between someone who is genetically from one ancestry and someone who simply wants to adopt a religion. judaism just happens to be a religion that corresponds fairly exclusively to a genetic group; it's not a very common religion so it's more likely to be as such. kinda like you probably won't find too many celts in china. whereas islam is a wide-spread world religion that has been adopted by incredibly varied gene pools all across asia, africa, the mediterranean, and further. judaism simply isn't that widespread.

it's really just a shitty coincidence that some people bought into the myth that they are somehow chosen.








** the royal "you", not you you.

[HexRei]

lol, the royal you!

[Andromeda.]

......isn't that what you're supposed to say when you aren't addressing any particular "you"?

i am so confused.

oh man i have no idea what's going on.

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/SM1106~Stoned-Towelie-Posters.jpg

[HexRei]

I don't think the majestic plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_majestatis) applies to "you", but its pretty funny either way ;)

bored at work, huh?

[mercuria]

ha!
you misread my misread, lulz.


eff bomb is what i saw.


i just pictured a bunch of angry persians cat calling the heebs.
hahahah!!!

ok., to work!

l8,
w
hey!
i'm 1/16th persian, and when i'm angry, i throw stuff :D

no probs there. :)

[mercuria]

I don't think the majestic plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_majestatis) applies to "you", but its pretty funny either way ;)

bored at work, huh?
oh, what a lovely terminology. i should really use it sometime in a meeting at work. see how others would react to Irina finally falling off her rocker.

[St. Earl]

"we are not amused."

[Effendi]

ha!
you misread my misread, lulz.

eff bomb is what i saw.


i just pictured a bunch of angry persians cat calling the heebs.
hahahah!!!

ok., to work!

l8,
w

Do you think it might be possible to keep your ignorant canned laugh lines in the "SUP" or "Post your picture" threads please?

The intent of this thread is for people to learn about world situations and we don't need you diluting the subject with your usual brainless quips.

Thanks in advance Wes for keeping your seemingly constant idiocracy where it's appreciated, out of mature conversations designed to educate.

[B_tech]

Ironic isn't it, that it's OK for israel to scream threats all day long but if Iran were to threaten them...

Yea, and at UN meetings, Israeli leaders get up and start trying to tell people that Iranians are the world's most racist regime, right?
All the 'threats' you talk about are leaked out, un-confirmed reports about potential military operations; it's only a threat if people in the position of the action confirm and/or MAKE the comment/threat.

Both sides are guilty, but if I had to tally up the bullshit and crap levels, Iran's puppet President would win; his comments are specifically made to enrage 'the west' and try to drive a wedge between themselves between Israel and those who are their allies.

[Effendi]

Yea, and at UN meetings, Israeli leaders get up and start trying to tell people that Iranians are the world's most racist regime, right?


Persians are not racist, all races are welcome in Tehran including the jew.

in israel, there are roads for jews only....restaurants for jews only....bathrooms for jews only and on and on. israel is a racist apartheid separatist state... PERIOD!!

There is no difference between Alabama 1950, South Africa 1980 and israel 2009.

I'm not arguing with you anymore brandon, Your defense of evil is disgusting.

[B_tech]

Persians are not racist, all races are welcome in Tehran including the jew.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

The only Jews allowed are Iranians that are Jewish and ALREADY Jewish; attempting to convert people is illegal there (unlike some, I've read up on that issue and the specifics in Iran). If I, a Jewish American, wanted to move to Iran, I would be denied.

Judaism is a religion, not a race, BTW.

There's no arguing on my part. You're constantly coming here, spouting off anger and bullshit... I'm gonna call you on it each and every time.

[Effendi]

Judaism is a religion, not a race, BTW.



Strawman, as usual, first antisemitic, than "what is a jew".........I notice you didn't approach all the racist "jews only " practices in israel...


There's no arguing on my part. You're constantly coming here, spouting off anger and bullshit... I'm gonna call you on it each and every time.

You just don't like the truth cause your a jew, and the truth does not flatter your religion or race or whatever.

America is waking up to the deception of the zionist, the money is about to dry up. America is about to finally realize who our friends really are.

You shall soon fade into the pages of history as the Nazi's before you who practiced the same pogroms.

.

[B_tech]

Strawman, as usual, first antisemitic, than "what is a jew".........I notice you didn't approach all the racist "jews only " practices in israel...
Why bother placating to your angry will? Some may, but I'm not going to.


You just don't like the truth cause your a jew, and the truth does not flatter your religion or race or whatever.
No, I'm tired of your angry, fact-less, hate-filled posts and attacks on anyone and everyone here. We get it... you're old and angry. Move the fuck on. If you want to have cogent, respectful conversations here, then cool, but as of late, all you do is attack and spew hate and anger at people because it suits you that day.

[tr0llaccount]

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

no, it's not! they'd allow gays (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2859606.ece) (they're a real morale booster) too, but they don't grow 'em there. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI) i've heard they're looking to import some to round out their multi-cultural love fest.

the only people they aren't particularly fond of are reporters, (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gtsioYDHvYVJZz91ZcjtOHQDnrOQ) but they're fair about it, becasue it doesn't really matter what race/religion they are.

[Effendi]

No, I'm tired of your angry, fact-less, hate-filled posts and attacks on anyone and everyone here. We get it... you're old and angry. Move the fuck on.

OK Brandon, Old and Angry? there are ten personal things I could say to you that are true and would cut to the core but I won't because this is not a personal issue even though you are trying to make it that way.

Old? As far as age is concerned, there is not that many years between us.

Angry. That one you fully get. I am angry at so many things in life that just turned out different that I had tried to make them. I can not be any more honest than that.

I do hope the best for you and Vanessa in Colorado, but there is obviously no more middle ground between us and I really don't want anything to do with you in the future.

You're far from the first person I have co-signed for that stabbed me in the back and you won't be the last. It should have been expected. It's just another thing that creates anger within a man.

Best of luck..:)

[Cethe]

once more i am reminded...

war will never end in the middle east as long as there is organized religion.

2000+ years of war & conflict. no one can REALLY trace back what actually started it all. but in hundreds of years of escalation new reasons to hate and kill have been devised.

but interestingly they all preach (sort of) to be good to your neighbor, the golden rule etc....
as an individual this is easy to do. why can't world leaders follow that very simple rule?

[tr0llaccount]

why can't world leaders follow that very simple rule?

imperfect humans.

[Cethe]

imperfect humans.


no, i think it's more power hungry & not really actually caring about the true meaning of their religion & simply using it as an excuse to invade someone else's land for their money & resources.

crusades...alll about land, money & power
inquisition...SAME
early wars between egypt & rome...YUP, all about the fertile nile soil & cairo's gold.

every warlord that has started shit, has done it simply for the power & resources.

[B_tech]

I do hope the best for you and Vanessa in Colorado, but there is obviously no more middle ground between us and I really don't want anything to do with you in the future.

You're far from the first person I have co-signed for that stabbed me in the back and you won't be the last. It should have been expected. It's just another thing that creates anger within a man.
There's plenty of middle-ground between us... as I've said before, you and I have always had cogent and respectful conversations, but as of late, I just don't see anything but anger and hate from you here. Maybe it's just the little part of you that is expressed here, since I see how happy you look in the event photos... but the fact remains that what you type here represents how people see you here.
As to backstabbing... well, if you consider me not backing your recent change in attitude here backstabbing, then I suppose I'm guilty. Other than that, I can't imagine where you're coming up with that contention. I do know, however, that you fell the fuck off the radar and we stopped talking; how I was deemed a backstabber after that point is beyond me. But... that's an issue of a personal nature for PMs and not something these folks care to read about in a poltical thread, methinks.

[seattle science]

This oughta get him nice and riled up too... http://static.cqpolitics.com/harman-3098436-page1.html?docID=hsnews-000003098436&cpage=1

[tr0llaccount]

no, i think it's more power hungry & not really actually caring about the true meaning of their religion & simply using it as an excuse to invade someone else's land for their money & resources.

i'd call that nearly the definition of imperfect.

[Cethe]

i'd call that nearly the definition of imperfect.


seems more meglomaniac to me....

[Effendi]

This oughta get him nice and riled up too... http://static.cqpolitics.com/harman-3098436-page1.html?docID=hsnews-000003098436&cpage=1


Well SS yes this does get me excited and it should get you excited as well.

This is an elected American official conspiring with the representatives of a foreign government against her own government.

Her very last comment was "This conversation never took place" Those are words of a traitor.

Does treason excite you? Do you even care?

[tr0llaccount]

seems more meglomaniac to me....

again, i'd call megalomania a serious character defect, or an example of imperfection. i.e. people are fucked up.

maybe we're splitting hairs.

[seattle science]

Well SS yes this does get me excited and it should get you excited as well.

This is an elected American official conspiring with the representatives of a foreign government against her own government.

Her very last comment was "This conversation never took place" Those are words of a traitor.

Does treason excite you? Do you even care?

I don't give a fuck what their agenda is, I don't want any lobbyist making deals with our leaders.

[Effendi]

Well SS, that HAS been my position from my very first post on this board.

I really think that ALL lobbies should be abolished and made illegal.

Anytime you allow money to dictate policy as in the case of the lawyers or the doctors or the NRA or anyone else, it creates a situation prime for corruption.

.

[B_tech]

I really think that ALL lobbies should be abolished and made illegal.

Agreed. 'By the people' is lost when it's only a few people that dictate/influence law.

[budaho]

Well SS, that HAS been my position from my very first post on this board.

I really think that ALL lobbies should be abolished and made illegal.

Anytime you allow money to dictate policy as in the case of the lawyers or the doctors or the NRA or anyone else, it creates a situation prime for corruption.

.

what? that's crazy talk.

how are collective groups of people to communicate their wishes to their representatives if not by "lobbying them"? banning all lobbies will only ensure that the only people able to access politicians are those with the connections and sway to do so discretely. the problem is that to few groups representing the grass roots are able to hire lobbiests, not that lobbiests are allowed to exist.

[seattle science]

what? that's crazy talk.

how are collective groups of people to communicate their wishes to their representatives if not by "lobbying them"? banning all lobbies will only ensure that the only people able to access politicians are those with the connections and sway to do so discretely. the problem is that to few groups representing the grass roots are able to hire lobbiests, not that lobbiests are allowed to exist.

As long as "lobbying" does not involve money, it would be a-okay.

[budaho]

As long as "lobbying" does not involve money, it would be a-okay.

EXACTLY

i'm all for restricting campaign contributions and for restrictions on the so called revolving door between lobbiests ceos and government service.

but talk of banning lobbying is just crazy and would be a huge mistake. unfortunately i hear it talked of quite often.

[seattle science]

I think people just assume the presence of bribes ("contributions") when they think of lobbyists, which really isn't their fault.

[Effendi]

.
The whole idea of a lobbyist, is to influence the decision of a law maker, by money. sex, or power.

I think that ALL lobbyists should be banned from the political process.

How can we expect our law makers to make the right decision in the best interest of their constituents when they know that their votes can be purchased?

I think that the peoples assumption that lobbyists work with bribes is well documented.

[budaho]

.

How can we expect our law makers to make the right decision in the best interest of their constituents

how do you expect law makers to know what their constituents consider to be their interests without the ability to lobby?

bribery is illegal, and should be cracked down on, but that can be done without removing lobbiests from the process completely.

[Effendi]

it just seems that the nature of lobbyists is to use money to influence opinion.

You're probably right that they are a necessary evil, but it seems like in most cases they are just that.

[B_tech]

Lobbying is fine, but you can 'lobby' someone without giving them a 'contribution dinner' to sway their votes, yanno?

[fuerve]

My opinion kind of splits the difference between lasseiz-faire lobbying and bans on lobbying. I think that any citizen should be able to "lobby" the government by way of approaching an elected official and presenting a point. I do not think that elected officials should be so lacking in integrity that the relevance of the validity of the argument goes further by the wayside as the royalty treatment increases.

I think that if lobbying is going to end up being an industry, it should be a cottage industry rather than a huge machine. I'm all for people organizing themselves and attempting to influence officials by way of rhetoric and reason, but I don't like the slimy feeling I get after being handled by politicians who've had their palms greased.

[Plerr]

Well, maybe "we" shouldn't have "representatives" at all?

Maybe communities should make decisions democratically, and then send someone out to express an opinion or enact a decision? Someone who can be recalled at a moments notice, and has no autonomous or individual authority beyond expressing the will of the community which sent them on the errand?
By comparison what 'we' have now, are autonomous individuals with tremendous personal power making decisions for entire communities or regions without any direct guidance from the public. If the public is dissatisfied they either have to engage in a very lengthy and difficult removal process (which rarely ever occurs, despite wide-spread general dissatisfaction) or wait several years. In either case a lot of time and a lot of damage can be done by these autonomous "representatives" with so much power.

Of course, the former society might require more frequent voting. perhaps every two weeks, or every month (rather than every two or four years). But that isn't something I consider a negative, or too difficult.

[yewzer]

Judaism is a religion, not a race, BTW.


uhm, master race IMO.

[Effendi]

.
So this does beg the question of the criteria for a "master race".

Do you suffer less genetic ailments?
Do you use your "superiority" to better those around you less fortunate?
Are you taller, stronger or faster?
Are you the example of how a "better" human lives?

Please give us some examples of what makes you a superior race over the rest of the humans on the planet.

Earlier it was argued that jews are a religion not a race, if I convert to judaism, do I become a superior human?;)

[B_tech]

lol... the 6 million dollar Jew.

We can rebuild him faster....make him faster, stronger, more kosher.

[Nukegrrrl]

if I convert to judaism, do I become a superior human?;)I think it only works that way if the vagina you popped out of is also Jewish.

[Roddimus]

EXACTLY

i'm all for restricting campaign contributions and for restrictions on the so called revolving door between lobbiests ceos and government service.

but talk of banning lobbying is just crazy and would be a huge mistake. unfortunately i hear it talked of quite often.
meh, i'm more in favor of putting strict restrictions on how the government can interact with the economy. unless war is officially declared and industry is needed to support it, the line between the feds and the economy should be as distinct as the line between church and state.
personally i think making it impossible for lobbyists to get the money would be a lot easier to accomplish than preventing them from giving the money.

[Effendi]

I think it only works that way if the vagina you popped out of is also Jewish.


Well now I'm confused Jenn, cause earlier, Brandon claimed that :



Judaism is a religion, not a race, BTW.



So what's a kosher vagina other than one that claims to have been converted to one?

[B_tech]

That's the 'Jewish by proxy'... it's the only religion I know that says "You're one of us if your mother was".

[Effendi]

.
Convenient when it's convenient and not when it's not.

So I guess it sounds like jews are no different than anyone else, their "superiority" is only in their own mind.

Thanks for clearing that up...:)

[Andromeda.]

everyone knows that the japanese are the superior race because they have ninjas.

[HexRei]

That's the 'Jewish by proxy'... it's the only religion I know that says "You're one of us if your mother was".

mormons take it one step further- they actually baptise non-mormons posthumously, sometimes without the consent of anyone even remotely related to them, lol. clearly that is the one true and honest faith :rolleyes:

[yewzer]

.
So I guess it sounds like jews are no different than anyone else, their "superiority" is only in their own mind.

oh scott, its not that i am jewish that makes me better than almost everyone else. but if that makes you feel better, go with it.

[burnt]

That's the 'Jewish by proxy'... it's the only religion I know that says "You're one of us if your mother was".

no drunk indians are like that too.

technically, I'm 1/4 eskimo but my tribe won't register me. I'm not "scene" enough for em or something

[B_tech]

technically, I'm 1/4 eskimo but my tribe won't register me. I'm not "scene" enough for em or something
I've often wondered about that... if someone is 1/10th of a native background, are they allowed to join that tribe? It seems silly to think 'yes', but that's something I've wondered.

[Nukegrrrl]

I've often wondered about that... if someone is 1/10th of a native background, are they allowed to join that tribe? It seems silly to think 'yes', but that's something I've wondered.Every tribe has their own rules for membership but first you'd probably have to prove your quantum, the fraction of native blood in you, with the US Bureau of Indian Affairs. Like my quantum would be 1/16, because my great-grandpa was half native. The Feds at BIA want papertrails of evidence; stuff like generations of birth certificates that go back to where you can prove you have an ancestor on certain lists of natives who signed up for plots of reservation land. If your paperwork is approved the Feds will send you a certification card, like a social security or voter registration card, that says your name, social security number and your quantum and from what tribes the quantum is from. Next, you would take your that card to the tribe you want to apply to and then the tribe's own membership rules would take over after that.

I know that some big tribes, like Cherokee, accept 1/64th quantum. I would think that allowing people with a quantum of 1/8 (meaning your great-grandparent was full-blooded native) would be commonplace.