is the world fucked? (or should i keep trying?)

[forrest303]

hey, um....well, to put it straight...i am a science student studying conservation biology and toxicology at evergreen. and having come the conclusion that we are fucked as a whole...
why???
population pressures, deforestation, an uncaring "me first" society, etc, etc, etc...
i am one of the most optomistic people i know, and yet i fear for the future.
for me, and the welfare of others...
i will never have any children, for selfish and larger reasons.
i will continue on in school and get my masters in conservation biology, but sometimes i wonder if its too late
i want to preserve our beautiful world so others can enjoy it and leave a legacy behind for future generations.
are we too late? is my schooling going to help (i hope so)
am i alone in feeling like this? (sorry, this is not as well writen as i would like...)
~forrest~

"if in helping at least one other person to live a better life, it was a life worth living..."annoymous

[romEo]

ye sthe world is fucked but please keep trying it is people like you that bring us as close to balance as we can come so thank you. oh yeah and as far as things go society is fucked but we all keep trying thank you for making our world a better place.

[DJAugie]

Heres a story:

A man walks down a beach after a large storm. He looks up and down beach and sees thousands of sea stars washed up on the beach where they will all die if left in the hot sun. The man picks one up and throws it back into the sea. He continues his walk and as he comes to a washed up sea star he bends over and throws it into the sea. Eventually he walks by a man sitting on a log. As he throws another sea star back to the sea the man on the log says. "what are you doing? There is no way you can possibly save them all."
The man looks down the beach at all the little animals on the beach, picks up another sea star, throws it as far as he can, and turns towards the man on log, "I saved that one."

It is very easy to look at the world and say "we are fucked up as a whole..." and maybe we are but the "whole" gets a little bit smaller with people like you who throw back one fish at a time.

Keep trying!!!

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-Brannon
You get 3 ants together and they can't do dick; get 3,000,000 of them and they can build a cathedral.



[This message has been edited by DJAugie (edited 04-13-2000).]

[gruvekitten]

I can't even watch the discovery channel anymore for fear that I will break into tears. That is how passionately I feel about this issue. Sometimes I get so frusterated that I don't know what to do. It makes me so ashamed of the human race when I hear of raw suage being dumped into the ocean and animals being anialated from the planet because people have taken over there habbitat. I believe in the movie The Matrix the human race was compared with the Virous in the same way that it moves into an area and consumes every natural resource until it's gone. Then it moves into another area and does the same thing there. It will keep moving until everything is gone. It makes you wonder what will happen when there's nothing left??

kitty a.k.a shadow vixen

[Little Terror =)]

i don't have much to add just
please don't give up images/smilies/smile.gif
there's others with tha same concerns
who are working hard to balance things

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=)pUt a sMiLe oN yOuR fAcE LiKe UlTrAbRiTe=)

[groovinkim]

"optimism is a strategy for building a better future. because unless you believe that the future can be better, it is unlikely you will step up and take responsibility for making it so. if you assume that there will be no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. if you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, opportunities to change things.. there is a chance you may contribute to making a better world. the choice is yours."

- noam chomsky

i dig that

images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[kimberlily]

RIGHT ON GROOVINKIM!
noam chomsky rocks...

and he's right...

[boork]

I was studying atmospheric sciences at the UW; I think its amazing that people _can_ in fact modify the large-scale parameters of our planet, such as climate.

As far as saying we are fucked as a whole -- *shrug* difficult to say at this point. Part of the problem is that the chemicals that are modifying climate are long-lived, and climate change contains an element of persistance, meaning that the effects of these chemicals will not be fully felt for a few hundred years, longer than the human lifespan and way longer than the average human attention span :P

You're far from alone, if you're wondering if we'll be able to save ourselves; heh just remember its humanity we're largely talking about it; the ball of rock is going to be around a long time if we render ourselves extinct...

I just got done reading Pale Blue Dot and Sagan raises an interesting point in it -- We are unique right now in that this is the first point in human history where we've possessed the power to destroy ourselves, but with that same power we can accomplish incredible things if we choose...

-b

[Pandora]

I remember that "virus" thing in the matrix also. What a virus does is to latch onto a cell, put its own DNA into it so that the cell's DNA gets messed up and produces a mutated offspring and thus the survival of the virus. Very interesting if you look at the race of humans that are overpopulating this earth, while getting there hands all over stuff, and soon to be swapping DNA from one organism to another to create other organisms..
but you know what?

WE wont die! Nor the Earth, or anything living and breathing. As much as people believe in the immortal soul we all posses, they sure are scared out of their wits to die. But I wont and nor will you if you dont want to. Its all about the power of will, self-belief and all the memeories you have that stay alive.
Energy cant be destroyed.

One last thing: Think how vain it is to beleive that this world is totally about US. It also has living on it other animals, plants and such and not to mention all the other creatures that live outside of the physical. No we wont die, we cant. It is only change, my friends, only change.


*steps down from soap box and excuses herself*

[rudiegirl]

*claps for pandora*

to my dearest forrest,
no, we are not "fucked". Perhaps we cannot save all of the species of plants and animals that we have sent into extinction. But it is important to note that extinction and the development of new species is part of nature. We are part of nature. Nature has allowed us to prosper thus far, and to do all the things that we have done. Do you think that we could be nourished at all if it weren't for the earth? We are as much a part of nature as anything else.

As to whether you should keep trying, yes you should. I love that story that DJAugie posted, I have heard that story many times, mostly in church. One version had the man on the log ask the other man, "Who cares if you save one starfish?" And the other man replied, "It matters to this one," as he held up the starfish and tossed it into the sea. It matters to the people you save, to the animals you save, and to the future generations who can live a little bit better for your efforts. In some ways, the choice to NOT have children is an unselfish one, if you think of it that way. The choice to not want to instill your own ideas and values in someone else and to leave some sort of tangible legacy, to achieve a degree of immortality, is an unselfish one. When deciding whether one wants to have kids, a person should look around at the condition this earth is in. Do we really want to subject an innocent child to the things that we have seen? Knowing full well that it will most likely get worse?
I do not see humans as a parasite or a virus. I think it is counterproductive to want to extinguish your own species. I don't agree with people who think that humans should be extinguished in favor of plants and animals. I personally don't feel like killing myself.
The help that you give to the earth and the creatures living on it is valid, however insignificant it may seem in the vast scheme of things. Our own lives are insignificant in the vast scheme of things, yet what we do with them makes a world of difference. I want to help as many people as I can before I leave this earth, knowing that the space I occupied while here, the food I consumed and the air I breathed and the love I received from friends and family was not wasted, but will return to the earth and her creatures. My life may be insignificant, but it is all I have to give and I do not wish to waste it.

Love and Peace,
angel

[bright]

this whole "humans are evil and must be destroyed" thing is a product of the puritanical belief in sin. it has resulted in a culture of people who hate themselves.

if you hate yourself, it is very difficult to love the world around you (especially since they are one and the same on a spiritual level).

beliefs that call for the destruction of the human race only perpetuate the destruction we lay on the earth. learn to love and trust yourself. and then we will know how to love our planet and fellow life-forms.

- paul

[podge]

~If you haven't read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, I recommend it...a beautiful book that can open your eyes to the way we view this world.

Of all creatures..man is the only one who cannot live in complete harmony with his environment...we have the knowledge, the tools, but do we (just a generalization) have the heart?

I wish hemp was completely legalized
=P

[phoenix]

*sigh*
There are many days when I feel like saying fuck it cause soo many ppl refuse to see the grand scale destruction of our habitat or the long term effects of our day to day actions. But there is something deeper that calls me to keep on going. The song of one starfish is enough to get me through many days.
Every little bit you can do helps, every time you do something it ripples. Please don't give up. There is much to be done.

luv luv luv
*phoenix*


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Tribal House Vibration Tranceforming the Nation

[ajnacentric]

gaia is gonna take care of herself no matter what we do. its just a question of whether or not we can survive as a species. of course you should keep trying, just dont let your personal sanity get too caught up in it!

paddy b

[Happy Tripper]

We are the dominant species on this planet. Yeah, it sucks. It's in our nature to proliferate. Like it or not, humans will continue breeding and will continue to need more space to live.

Am I worried? No.

Does anyone remember that old song: "We didn't start the fire"?

I personally think we need to start slipping sterilization juice into water supplies of overpopulated countries.



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http://www.icehouse.net/mdryden

[sothis]

i think we need a major plague that destroys all humans, so the earth can be ok again. weve already fucked it up enough... the only species that destroys and exploits it.

i understand what yer sayin, yo...
i think humans need to voluntarily commit suicide and become sterile so we eventually die off.



------------------
bah.
---------------
8194217
http://www.toons.cs.wwu.edu/johnsok5/partypictures.html
---------------
See what you want to, see entropy's my only master.

[gruvekitten]

Don't they limit the number of children that a couple in China can have to only one?

Personally I think that's a dam good idea!

[186k/sec]

America cant handle limits -

land of the more is better & the cheaper the faster.

IT is Pathetic & fucked!

but I keek trying - allbeit, behind loud headphones & rose colored glasses

[kimberlily]

gruvekitten ~ great! maybe we could restage the cultural revolution too...
i can see it now (your fantastic idea): fascist oppressive governements around the world carting women off in trucks, forcing them into hospital rooms, spreading their legs & sterilizing them
(do you know that's what's happened to THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of women in china?)
maybe you should brush up on your history...

& i hate to say this, but if you all want to destroy the human race, then why the hell are YOU still alive? honestly, why aren't you ending it right now? i'm not instigating suicide here, don't get me wrong...remember, i think we should TRY to make it better...but maybe the fact that you are choosing to live life today should tell you something: LIFE IS WORTH LIVING...duh

i remember when i thought it was cool to be as cynical as possible...it feels GOOD to bitch & bitch about how fucked up everyone ELSE (never yourselves) is & to feel all self-righteous because YOU'VE FIGURED EVERYTHING OUT, right?

WTF? maybe some of you kids should OPEN YOUR EYES & EDUCATE YOURSELVES rather than thinking you know better (and are better) than everyone else...

i think the most important lesson i've learned yet (at 23) is that the things i thought i really knew...i didn't
when i thought i'd got it down...i didn't

LIFE IS JUST NOT THAT SIMPLE

you can go ahead & sit back in your comfy chairs here in America the great...not even realizing how your lovely Western perspectives have warped you...not really knowing what the fuck is going on in the world...& you can bitch about how you think people suck & all i've got to say about that is: NICE SOLUTION...really genius...lets just KILL EVERYBODY instead of trying to change things...(because you KNOW that change takes EFFORT)

[gruvekitten]

Oh really?? So what would your suggestion be to China's terrible population problem?? Do you think that people should be allowed to just breed to there hearts content?? I'll admit that alot of terrible things have happened in China. I'm not trying to say that there system is perfect in fact I think it's a pretty fucked up place, but what choice do they have??

[kimberlily]

china didn't implement 1 child per family b/c of a simple overpopulation problem...they did it b/c the powers that be in china have a very long history (from the empire to the current communist govmt) of oppressing their people...
the government (around the time of the cultural revolution and the beginning of the childbirth laws - in the 70s particularly) was exploiting and continues to exploit their people for labor/raw materials/etc.
they created such a system of poverty that they can't support the number of people in their country...but china is freakin HUGE & could easily support their citizens if the government hadn't fucked everything up

just another example of those with power screwing the little man & then blaming it on them & fucking them over even more to try to fix it...

[antiplur superstar]

I personally think we need to start slipping sterilization juice into water supplies of overpopulated countries.

What an delightfully Amreican egocentric stance to take. Who will decide which counties are too overpopulated? You? Well the U.S. is the least, if not one of the least, densly populated country so we're safe. So which ones will it be, England, France, Germany? Prob'ly not. They wouldn't start in Europe. I know how 'bout india, china, or latin america. Those sound like good places to start. We'll just put some sterilizing agent in there drinking water without them knowing, then watch the humor unfold as worried populations desperatly try to figure out why there birth rate is dropping so quickly. "Could it be the water? No that only happens in the movies. A new disease, a plague, an at of god? What is it and why won't anyone help us?" Oh, the laughs we'll have.

But why should we stop at dictating the breeding rights of other countries when we could do it here to. If we could have this much fun abroad, imagine all the fun we'll have in our own backyard. But who should we starilize? I know the poor. Great Idea. But where should we draw the line? Can't be too careful. I don't know where they'd stop drawing the line but I know where they'd start, Inner city ghettos. Doesn't matter that most of Americas' poor doens't acctually live in inner city ghettos, but they're so convinient. All those ppl cuped up in one place. So easy to round up like cattle and sterilize. So what if most are minorities, we can get 'round that civil rights issue after we're done.

But why stop at the poor? Let's sterilize EVERYBODY. Then we could have ULTIMATE control over population growth and who breeds. This way we can make sure only those who are "truely" worthy and having a child will have one. We will create rules and minimum requirements, and tests, and beaurocrats(sp?), and paper work and what not. Want a child? Well it's easy. Just fill out the appropiate form and take these test and submit this information all to your local company's ... oops!... I mean you local Country's beaurocrat(sp?) And they will get back to you once they reviewed all the paper work and have decided whether or not you a fit to become a parent. This way we can get rid of the poor, stupid, weak, and lame. We could get rid of racism too. Not letting racist ppl breed isn't practical. How would you be able to tell. Besides they could infect others ppl children anyway. No the way to get rid of racism is to get rid of the minorities. We'll just make sure the standards are set so high they can never meet them. If that excludes others aswell, well we can just say it's a special case and forget to enforce some of the standards. We can worry about the human rights issue later. "I'm sorry Mr. and Mrs. Smith but you don't seem to meet our minmum require ments. Pleas try again some other time." All said with a smile on the face and a twinkle in the eye. We have only the best of intentions. We have the good of the world to think of. Who cares if someone's human rights get trampled? It's for a good cause. Now doesn't this all sound like a good idea. Well then, it's time for your shot. You wouldn't want to be late.



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All That Glitters Is Cold, All That Glitters Is Cold

The time has come it is quite clear Our Antiplur Is almost here >=]

[Dogmatix]

I love this, there is a eugenics debate on the board.
Anyways, im all for eugenics, so where many world leaders, brilliant scientists, lots of people, plus this one guy named hitler. he saw it as a convienient way to justify genocide, which illustartes perfectly the wrong application of eugenics. I belive that eugenics can be used to curb population growth, and to stop certain people from having children. Ted bundy fathered three children from jail, after guilty conviction. To a woman he met through letters while in jail. That was legal. Im not talking THX-1138, but 12 year olds shouldnt be alowed to have children. Whom am i to decide who gets to have children or not? Im nobody, im not sure one person needs that responsibility, it has to be a group thing. BUt it would be to suceptible to the media. So we can start at not letting prisoners have congegal visits. I dont like the idea of convicted felons having children while in jail paying a debt to society.

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Much Peace and Love

[jrzmike]

SLUG...forget about the world and just show up for one of our damn road trips images/smilies/wink.gif...shoelace

[groovinkim]

So we can start at not letting prisoners have congegal visits. I dont like the idea of convicted felons having children while in jail paying a debt to society.

but it's okay if they slam their cellmate
against the wall & bang 'em up the butt :P

just as long as it's not a partner they
actually care about

[antiplur superstar]

Kim, so you ARE a volunteer in the VHEMT movemnet.

"May we live long and die out"

------------------
All That Glitters Is Cold.

The time has come it is quite clear Our Antiplur Is almost here >=]

[sothis]

Let's sterilize EVERYBODY. Then we could have ULTIMATE control over population growth and who breeds. This way we can make sure only those who are "truely" worthy and having a child will have one.


nope, just sterilize everybody, period, so no one can have kids.
then we will die off peacefully, eventually the concrete prison we built over the earth will go away, the world will be restored to green trees, etc.


but if you all want to destroy the human race, then why the hell are YOU still alive? honestly, why aren't you ending it right now?


hey now, im not gonna kill myself, but i am making a choice to never spawn a child who will continue to eat away at the earth. thats as much population control that i can do as one person.


...(because you KNOW that change takes EFFORT)


and unfortunately, too many people dont want to change for it to be worth it. there are already groups around that try to make a difference. does it matter? no.




------------------
bah.
---------------
8194217
http://www.toons.cs.wwu.edu/johnsok5/partypictures.html
---------------
See what you want to, see entropy's my only master.

[Dogmatix]

Never said the prison system was good, i am busy saying its horrible. People are slammed into the wall and fucked in the ass and thats not cool. The prison system is only growing, in california its the number one growing industry. BUt we have al gore a "liberal" candate saying things like look at all the wonderful economic grwoth in california, i want that to be continued throught the country. I read that as "i want this counrty to have more prisons and prisoners, i want to perpetuate an inhumane thing even further, i want this counrty to send all its unwanted to jail so we dont have to see them on the street"

-just as long as it's not a partner they
actually care about

is sex with a someone you care about your natural right as a human? I dont believe so. UNless you count yourself.

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Much Peace and Love

[kimberlily]

antiplur - you freakin' rock! ever read "a modest proposal" by swift? maybe we should just start eating children? that would solve everything...no more babies growing up & we could solve the hunger & starvation problems at the same time! whoopie!!!

sothis - ok, i see where you're coming from on this...you're basically jaded, right? no suprise...
but here's where i'm coming from:
maybe you can't change the whole world in the snap of your fingers but you can change some things, like the people around you...you can change their lives

if you can make just one person's life better, if you can help someone out when they need something, or if you can put a smile on their face when they're feeling bad, or if you defend someone when they're being pushed around & can't help themselves, or if you can talk to someone with respect & kindness & help them to discover that they've been misguided or close minded or cruel & that they can change (this CAN happen...i've experienced it a number of times), then guess what? you are changing the world...

it's like a big pool of water...you may not be able to make a huge wave, but every little drop effects the whole pool...and if you know anything about chaos theory (the butterfly effect) you can't tell me that small changes just get lost in the mix...you may not be able to predict the outcome of what you do...but what you put into the world is what the world will become...

ok, so as far as this whole voluntary extinction thing goes...i suppose it's a nice thing to say (i swear it feels good to be jaded) but do you really think you're going to convince the world to do it? if you don't think you could change things for the better, what makes you think you could get everybody to die off? self-preservation & the desire to create progeny are two of the most basic instincts found in all living things
i think we have a much better chance of raising people's consciousness than getting them to not have children...

i guess the last thing i'd like to add (for now) is this: what do you think rave culture was started for? do you think that the community & music is just a way of dealing with the fact that the world is fucked up? or is it really a method of altering the world? aren't we trying to do something good here? "vibe" is more than just trying to make a good party...it's a way of making connections with people & sharing love, beauty, art & music...that eventually extends into our everyday lives...

the fact is, people just aren't going to stop having kids...they aren't going to voluntarily end the human race...it's just not going to happen...so if we're stuck in what we have, then it seems like saying "let's kill off the human race" is a cop-out...how can that do anything but make things worse? if the people who see that the world is fucked up just say fuck it & the ones fucking it up just keep on doing that (which they will, even more if they don't find any resistance) then how are you doing anything but contributing to the problem?

yes the world is fucked up...i won't ever debate that...i'm not saying to live a life of blissful ingnorance or to smile & be happy all the time...

why waste your energy on negativity when you can actually do something good?

when i was growing up i was often depressed & lonely & some really fucked up shit happened to me...i didn't know how to deal with it for a long time but then i realized that there were two directions i could go...
i could:
a) become bitter & angry & let everyone know how pissed i was, hate humanity & maybe even hate myself...
b) try to do the things for people & the world that i wished had been done for me...find people who need someone & be there for them...TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE...& hope that my example will rub off on at least a few other people...

[boy christe]

Keep trying.

Love...me.

------------------
His Royal Highness, The Crown Prince:
Wesley A. of Bellevue, Possessions and Territories

boy_christe@yahoo.com

[BlueberryJoe]

You ever really think about it... that sooner or later, human existence will cease. Its gonna happen, sooner or later. What really gets me is, whats it going to be??? I want to know!! Nuclear/biological warfare? Lack of resources? Some mutant disease? Some kind of new predator? Some alien life form? A conscious, collective decision to just stop existing? Evolution into a new life form? Collapse/heat death of the universe? I dunno... maybe no one else wonders about this, but I'm curious, and it drives me crazy.

Other stuff too... like that before there are no people, there's got to be a last person. Weird.

[bungle bliss]

We will not last another 100 years, and I will be surprised if we last another 50.

And I am not trying to sound like a crackhead when I say this...at the present rate of cuttage, the rainforests will be totally gone in 50 years. Then what will we breathe? And they say that's at present rate...I say it will accelerate.

[*on-ramp* boy]

LOOOOOOCCCKKKKKK MEEEEEEEEEEEEE PPPPPllllluuuuuuuuhhhhhhhEEEEEEAAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEEE EEEEEE!!!!!!!

love
me

[bungle bliss]

images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kaaaty]

yes were fucked...

its positively inevitable...

People who work as conservationists, ect just prolong the inevitable...whats going to happen someday is that our society as we know it will come to a crashing end...its happened to every major civilization since the beginning of recorded history (and even further)

As I see it...things go in cycles or waves...there is a slow beginning period, a large build up, and then a crash...(think Roman empire as an example) but maybe this time the world is really SO fucked that the crash will resound around the earth and every single species will die like prehistoric times...a HUGE earth-al cleansing...now wouldnt THAT be cool...but instead of a hude meteor itll be like a HUGE flood from global warming or a massive earthquake

*shivers in anticipation*