Prostitution Vs. Abortion...........

[sonic::bionic]

Ok. Abortion is legal under the principle that a woman has the right to do what she wishes with her body. Logically, this should apply to selling her body for sex, but for some reason it doesn't. Does anyone have any logical explanation as to the discrepancy? Also, logically speaking, why is prostitution illegal but pornography isn't? After all, people in porn get paid to have sex. Does that mean prostitution is legal if you videotape it?

I'm using women as the example because men don't have any laws specifically aimed at their right to control their bodies.

Also note that I am neutral on this issue. I'm only wondering what other people think the reasons are behind the apparent hypocrisy.

[Roddimus]

Each one of these conflicting aspects shows just how fuct up the system is in this country.
LOGICALLY, the US government wouldn't make pot illegal (seeing as how it violates basic constitutional rights)
LOGICALLY, it wouldn't censor TV and radio (seeing as how censorship--in any form--violates the very basis of freedom of speech)
LOGICALLY, federal crimes wouldn't extend beyond crimes done within the federal government (seeing as how states are promised the right to their own laws and means of government, without interferrence from the Feds).
LOGICALLY, America would be the greatest country in the world.
Yet we have proven the exact opposite of the ladder. And anyone who holds to that claim is a blind fool.

[The Ancient Princess]

You are a wize man Roddimus (saw u at shadows too, u kicked ass dude!!) Anyway.. i agree. Umm.. geez, i think maybe about the prostitution thing, they should just make it legal, and strictly regulate it like they do in certain parts of nevada. But... I think it should only be legal in certain parts, but maybe not in big cities... i think that might increase the chance for crime within those places... maybe? not sure. but probably best to have those kind of places in somewhat isolated areas. haha, i kind of got off the point. But yeah.. what Roddimus said heh.

[Yungrii Mobliatri]

the point about porn being prostitution is really interesting. i have never ever heard anyone even make a connection between that.

i think the main difference though between the two is that prostitution seems to lead to bad things whereas porn doesn't, except some gooey rags.

prostitution leads to family wreckage and the spread of disease.

of course, if that happens to you, it's your own fault. Unless of course you are the child of a prostitute or a prostitutes customer.
Still i am all for the legalization of prostitution. I don't think the government needs to be sticking it's nose in people's sex life, no matter how raunchy they are.

[Yungrii Mobliatri]

and by the way, i am totally against abortion, because it involves more than just the woman's body obviously. i don't see how that is not considered murder. But, don't be afraid, i don't have any plans to blow up any buildings.

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by Yungrii Mobliatri:
<STRONG>i think the main difference though between the two is that prostitution seems to lead to bad things whereas porn doesn't, except some gooey rags.


</STRONG>

That's funny as hell! Well, the gooey rags part, that is.

[Gerhalt]

LOGICALLY, the US government wouldn't make pot illegal (seeing as how it violates basic constitutional rights)

What constitutional right is that?

You are right on the money about censorship however. We're all living in the twilight zone thinking it's normal for a government institution (the FCC) to decide that certain things must be bleeped and blurred. Of course, not being able to see titties on Howard Stern or hear the word "fuck" on Tom Leykis doesn't motivate me enough to picket in front of congress, but censorship remains just as Fucking Ridiculous none the less.

Prostitution is exactly the same situation: some senile, out of touch old fucks who believe they have the right to force their personal standards onto the rest of society, do just that.

Admittedly, the demographic of this board is going to be much more liberal than the U.S as a whole (and probably less likely to vote, by the way) but that's irrelevant when the Bill of Rights, a set of amendments put in to protect the minority, is being blatantly violated.

In sum, :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: .

[Sir RicEric]

Originally posted by Yungrii Mobliatri:
<STRONG>and by the way, i am totally against abortion, because it involves more than just the woman's body obviously. i don't see how that is not considered murder. But, don't be afraid, i don't have any plans to blow up any buildings.</STRONG>
Well, I hope not. I dont see how anyone can consider abortion "murder". Its every womans right to have the operation of removing unwanted cells. Just as a cancer patient removes cells that can eventually be harmfull to life. Without abortion there would be many unwanted children, abused children, unhappy families, single parents, and of course, a huge growth in population. All of which are harmful to life. So far the only people I have met that are against abortion are extremely religious people like the right-wing christians that are obviously brain washed by a two thousand year old myth that is as real as santa cluas.

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by Yungrii Mobliatri:
<STRONG>i think the main difference though between the two is that prostitution seems to lead to bad things whereas porn doesn't, except some gooey rags.

prostitution leads to family wreckage and the spread of disease.

</STRONG>

yeah right. prostitutes and porn stars are the same damn thing. money for sex is money for sex if its on a streetcorner or a video.

and porn stars get diseases too.

[antiplur superstar]

pornography is a public act filmed with the intent of having it viewed by other ppl and is there for protected by the 1st amendment for free speach and expression.

prostitution is a private act and is therefor not protected.

radio and tv is broadcast publicly . . . . the viewing audience can't control it like for example cable or movies (you can choose to pay for cable or go to a movie) therefor it was agreed some where that the fed gov can limit what is said to make it agree with obsenity laws.

*more on the national mode later*

[Sheepdog]

Have you ever thought about the Pledge of Allegiance?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

One nation under God? Isn't our 2nd Right the freedom of religion? The Constitution contradicts itself. Do you know why? It was written that way by a bunch of slave owning tax evaders who saw an opportunity to seize a state and make the rules THEY wanted. This is a secular state that pledges its allegiance to God.

With that fact clearly recognized, it's very easy to see why the legality of abortions will always be in question. Our government is dominated by Christians. Abortion may be legal, but it's hanging on one case, a single thread. Christians also have a general problem with sex, that's why prostitution is illegal, that's why we live in a repressive society. Hell, it wasn't until recently that parents started telling their kids it's okay to masturbate!

Thankfully, our Supreme Court has made some of its best decisions in the past 40 years. The other nice thing about all these crazy rights that were bestowed upon us is that we have the unquestionable right to choose who is in office and to run for office ourselves.

My only beef is that the people of America do too much whining and not enough changing (eg this reply). Furthermore, Americans are very impatient. The USA has only been a country for just over 200 years, and that's YOUNG compared to many other countries. It would take centuries for most countries to change their ways, and so far we've been doing it by the decades. These are things that need to change, but many of these topics challenge the nations faith in the Constitution and in religion itself!

People will not fight for an issue if they can possibly fight against it. Furthermore, if your ideas directly or indirectly question someone's [religious] beliefs then you'd better expect pushback.

I'm not trying to be the Thought Police here, I'm just presenting the point of view of most people-- consistency is safe, change is scary. The country is always changing, and is continuing to change. Abortion is an extremely complex ethical and social concern. The legality of abortion is not a logical debate, it's an emotional one. Please bear this in mind.

-- Matt

[Roddimus]

What constitutional right is that?
Well, firstly it infringes on every person's right to privacy.
The right to privacy was created to keep the government out of our homes. At the time of the revolution the king of england had full power to enter homes and seize any materials deemed unsavory. Our founding fathers saw this as a direct example of an abuse of power and made the right to privacy one of the first ammendments.
Yet now the US government is doing EXACTLY what the king of england did: invading homes (see the recent cases about police using infra-red cameras to see inside pot growers' houses), telling people what they can and cannot do in their private homes and punishing them for doing it.
Secondly, the fact that marijuana is banned on a federal level is a direct violation of the rights given to the states.
As seen in the recent California Medical Marijuana case, the Feds decided to supercede a law passed by the people of the state with nothing more than a "father knows best" attitude.
The federal government is acting as the nation's king. Yet what makes it even scarier than a king is the false sense of security seen in our checks and balances. We feel because we have three branches of government constantly balancing themselves that we're in no danger. But in actuallity it simply gives the political officials more power to do whatever they want to this country.
Sure, they might give us a few civil liberties to ease our minds, but the amount of these liberties is dwindelling by the day.

[Sheepdog]

You're right Roddimus and that's why marijuana laws won't change. It's a stupid played out topic that concerns no one but pot smokers.

Wasn't this a post about abortion to begin with? Stay on topic, and/or start a different thread.

[Lu$HuZ]

Originally posted by Yungrii Mobliatri:
<STRONG>

i think the main difference though between the two is that prostitution seems to lead to bad things whereas porn doesn't, except some gooey rags. </STRONG>

WRONG! Both are used by people who have sexual addictions in varying forms and both lead to increased excitement and/or dulling of senses to sex.

<STRONG>prostitution leads to family wreckage and the spread of disease.</STRONG>

WRONG AGAIN! YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT! http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html
Look on there for the stats on HIV/AIDS and prostitutes. Teenagers are way more risky (30%) than prostitutes to contract HIV. Prostitutes are not a valid health threat. HELLO! Are you there, dumbass? Please, we have left the dark ages, stop believing everything 20/20 tells you.

<STRONG>of course, if that happens to you, it's your own fault. Unless of course you are the child of a prostitute or a prostitutes customer. </STRONG>
HOW IS IT NOT YOUR FAULT IF YOU SOLICIT A PROSTITUTE??? You are so full of shit I cannot believe it! Fuck off!

How about a girl who marries for the money--- isn't that having sex when you don't always want to ? YES! Many people "buy" sex with gifts, promises, status, etc. and many people "whore" themselves for free!!! (refer to the thread about DJ hoes!) What are models and actors doing? SELLING THEIR BODIES??? NO WAY!?!? Yes, they get paid on what they look like and how they perform! uhhh-ohhh!

SO DON'T GET ALL HIGH AND MIGHTY!

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: aesthetica-go-go ]

[Dogmatix]

IN reference to abortion, its only mureder if life is being ended, so when is a fetus deemed sentient? As soon as the sperm impregnates the egg? or later, when brain patterns start happening. The female body aborts fetuses it deems unworthy naturally as well. Most miscarriges are this.

In refernce to prostitution, it will happen, it cannot be stopped. Kinda like pot. If regulated and taxed, it would be a very large source of revenue for the fedral government. Tax cut anyone? Or we could do like las vegas, put most of the proceeds towards public schools. Oh yeah which state has the best public school system? oh yeah, NEVADA. BUt of course, maybe its the intense desert heat, not the loads of funding.

[hardcandy]

same reason why it's a law to have to wear seatbelts...legally, it's not because the DRIVER will die in a car accident...if that were the case it would not be able to pass as a law because we have the right to do whatever to our bodies..but instead they came up with a lame excuse and this is their excuse..the driver who isn't wearing a seat belt may become a flying hazard to those who are driving on the road in the scene of an accident. so who knows what dumb reason they came up with to make prostitution illegal

[Zade]

Originally posted by Sheepdog:
<STRONG>Have you ever thought about the Pledge of Allegiance?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

One nation under God? Isn't our 2nd Right the freedom of religion? The Constitution contradicts itself. Do you know why? It was written that way by a bunch of slave owning tax evaders who saw an opportunity to seize a state and make the rules THEY wanted. This is a secular state that pledges its allegiance to God.

With that fact clearly recognized, it's very easy to see why the legality of abortions will always be in question. Our government is dominated by Christians. Abortion may be legal, but it's hanging on one case, a single thread. Christians also have a general problem with sex, that's why prostitution is illegal, that's why we live in a repressive society. Hell, it wasn't until recently that parents started telling their kids it's okay to masturbate!

Thankfully, our Supreme Court has made some of its best decisions in the past 40 years. The other nice thing about all these crazy rights that were bestowed upon us is that we have the unquestionable right to choose who is in office and to run for office ourselves.

My only beef is that the people of America do too much whining and not enough changing (eg this reply). Furthermore, Americans are very impatient. The USA has only been a country for just over 200 years, and that's YOUNG compared to many other countries. It would take centuries for most countries to change their ways, and so far we've been doing it by the decades. These are things that need to change, but many of these topics challenge the nations faith in the Constitution and in religion itself!

People will not fight for an issue if they can possibly fight against it. Furthermore, if your ideas directly or indirectly question someone's [religious] beliefs then you'd better expect pushback.

I'm not trying to be the Thought Police here, I'm just presenting the point of view of most people-- consistency is safe, change is scary. The country is always changing, and is continuing to change. Abortion is an extremely complex ethical and social concern. The legality of abortion is not a logical debate, it's an emotional one. Please bear this in mind.

-- Matt</STRONG>


Although you make some valid points I dissagree with you saying America is a impaitent country in regards to changing ideals and values!! I am in Australia which is a lot younger than the U.S and we find america a very conservative country.

Brothels are legal here although they have to pass government regulations!!! Street prostitution is banned here however. It is deemed as unsafe for people to be street hookers so they are fined if caught doing so.

Abortion has been legal here for many years and we dont suffer from anti abortionist activism like you do in the U.S

Where our countries really differ is gun laws! It is very hard to obtain a weapon with all semi automatics banned! A gun license is also hard to get and you have to pass a course with an exam at the end.

Oh yeah we also have gays and lesbians in the military who can tell people they are gay!!lol. They even try and recruite gays and lesbians to join the armed forces in gay press.

If some of the bible belt do-gooders took care of their own families and friends instead of trying to enforce their values onto other people, America would be a lot better country!!

Saying all that I hope to be in the U.S in a few months hehehehe!!!!

cheers Zade

[pizzazz]

Both are used by people who have sexual addictions in varying forms and both lead to increased excitement and/or dulling of senses to sex.
A lot of women(and possibly men) go into prostitution because they feel they have no other options. To hold up a drug habit, support a child, school, wutever. Not all of them have a sexual addiction. But i agree that they are the same. Sex for money.

[Snatch]

Originally posted by Sheepdog:
<STRONG>
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

One nation under God? Isn't our 2nd Right the freedom of religion? The Constitution contradicts itself. Do you know why? It was written that way by a bunch of slave owning tax evaders who saw an opportunity to seize a state and make the rules THEY wanted. This is a secular state that pledges its allegiance to God.

-- Matt</STRONG>

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they've changed that... I think now it's just: one nation indivisible: no under god, because of freedom of religion.

[Nimble*Syd]

I've always wondered why prostitution was illegal but pornography wasn't also...But I think Boogie Man is right.

[UrbanAssualtCutie]

First of all I agree with the distinctions between prositution and pornography made by boogie man. Secondly there is no federal law against prostitution, prostitution laws are contained in state statutes (if it were a federal law prostitution would be illegal in all states, its not look at Nevada). I see the primary reason for these laws being deeply rooted in the process of engendering. Clearly any sort of law is a social control, and although there are many male prostitutes the practice is usually associated with women historically and otherwise. Women are taught to be sexually passive and acquiescent. This is a normal expression of female sexuality. When a woman decides to except a monetary exchange for a sexual act she asserts a certain level of control over her own sexuality thus stepping outside the gender norm. When one does not fullfill their generally accepted role this is seen by many as a threat to social order. While many people argue that the legalization of prostitution is a public health risk this argument is invalid, although a smart person knows never trust statistics you can easily look at recent studies about the spread of STDs and see that prostitutes are not among the highest risk groups. On the argument about families breaking up over prostitutes, they do not break up because of prostitution they break up because of infidelity.

[AthenA]

It's horribaly unfortunate that this country would rather keep something illegal so that they can sleep easy while ignoring all the consequences illegality has. While i was in HS, we participated in something called student congress where all the students acted as senators writing bills and whatnot. My bill had to do with legalization of prostitution. My research turned up horrifying statistics. Did you know that an estimated 57% of prostitutes in D.C. are HIV positive? Every prostitute in existance has been raped, robbed, or assulted, but because their activities are illegal, they can't report it? The moral majority of this country keeps prostitution illegal in order to "protect" their own children. When they get porn from the neighbor kid, they can see but can't touch. What they neglect to realize is that prostitution exists everywhere, including the sleepist little suburbs. I found that the biggest argument against legalizing prostitution is that if we legalize it, we condone it. That teenage pregnancies will sky rocket, and that little girls will grow up aspiring to be hookers. What a crock, huh? Unfortunately, until prostitution is legalized and regulated, disease will continue to spread, and young girls/boys that no one cares about will continue to die. But that's O.K., right?, as long as sex remains illegal. Heaven forbid that our children get paid to sin....(sarcasm, of course) :D

[RacergirlX]

1) Roddimus, way to go.

2) Sheepdog, the Pledge of Allegiance was not part of the Constitution. It was written much, much later. No, they don't say it in school any longer unless you are in an JROTC program (which I was). The founding fathers did not intend for us to pray as a nation state.

Also, the debate over the legality and morality prostitution, abortion, and even drug use will continue on into the forseeable future as long as this country clings to its back-asswards pseudo-Christian morality. It is a sick condition of American culture that we feel we--and by that token our government--have every right to poke about in other people's private lives. Which we do not. Until this is recognized by Americans, however, we will continue to have these debates.

I used to do research on legalizing prostitution quite a bit for my classes . . . during every major prostitution crackdown in NYC, while the crime rate for this victimless crime went down, the rates of murder, robbery, and assault skyrocketed. (Waste of manpower, anyone?)
The rate of infection for STDs is higher in high school and college age people than in any other demographic.

And we should not follow Nevada's full example . . . implementaion of the prostitution laws in those rural counties where it is allowed is left solely to the discretion of the county sherrif. He/she can even decide when the women are "allowed" into town to shop for groceries or toiletries.

[groove_E]

If I recall prostitutions prohibition took place b/c of the brothels that used to exist in Washington DC way back when.. they basically were public health hazards for gonorea(however the fuck thats spelled) and other popular std's of the time. There was pressure then by locals to ban it (I'm not exactly sure what the full story was but if I recall it was something along those lines from waht I remember on the History Channel). I would think in an industry based around sex (the porn industry) there would be alot of tests constantly being done to ensure that the entire community of pornstars didn't start all contracting all sorts of disease. As for abortion goes I believe that abortion shouldn't take place if the parents are capable of providing it a decent home, but I don't think that it should be illegal for teenagers who are totally incapable of caring for their children properly, it just ruins all the lives of everyone involved (or has the capacity to) as most teens arent fit to be parents.

Out.

Eric

[meej]

Originally posted by Sheepdog:
<STRONG>Have you ever thought about the Pledge of Allegiance?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

One nation under God? Isn't our 2nd Right the freedom of religion? The Constitution contradicts itself. Do you know why? It was written that way by a bunch of slave owning tax evaders who saw an opportunity to seize a state and make the rules THEY wanted. This is a secular state that pledges its allegiance to God.
</STRONG>

the "under god" phrase was added to the pledge during the mccarthy era... something to do with fighting evil godless commies.


marijane

[meej]

Originally posted by aesthetica-go-go:
<STRONG>
&lt;yungii's comments snipped by meej&gt;

WRONG! Both are used by people who have sexual addictions in varying forms and both lead to increased excitement and/or dulling of senses to sex.
</STRONG>

i dunno about prostitution, but i would argue whether porn dulls the senses to sex. i find my libido is at it's lowest points when i'm NOT maintaining my porn habit.

but then, everyone is different. gotta be careful what kind of generalizations you make...


marijane

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: meej ]

[bungle bliss]

There is such a stigma surrounding sex and nudity in this country, thanks to the religious Christian movement that wants to bring shame to those acts. Yet violence prevails in all forms of media. In Europe it is the exact opposite as it should be. Maybe it's because the bible contains lots of violence? The leaders over here would rather, instead of citizens viewing nude bodies in sex acts, view those bodies being shredded by gunfire or explosions in our movies and tv shows.

I for one, would put a nude piece of art on the wall in a house with children before I would buy a child a toy gun.

I have wondered in the past why porno is not considered prostitution and therefore legal. I suppose it's those same minds that came up with the laws that make alcohol legal and weed illegal.

Bah.

[sonic::bionic]

Zade: Yes, it seems that our culture is quite sick and twisted compared to other Western cultures. We glorify violence and demonize sex; what makes life is viewed as disgusting, what ends it is entertainment. Just another sad commentary on the state of American society.

[RedBlondie]

First...the "under god" statement in the pledge, is still there.
Second...The Pledge is still said in every school in my area.
Third...Most teachers require us to at least stand while everyone recites it. It is said over the morning announcements and the whole school takes part.

[Gerhalt]

One nation under God? Isn't our 2nd Right the freedom of religion? The Constitution contradicts itself.

As pointed out above, "under god" was added during the anti-communist paranoia of the 1950's. But how does this mean that the constitution contradicts itself? The pledge of allegiance is not, to my knowledge, a part of the constitution.

[Cedwyn]

Yay Ebeneezer! what a crazy, good conversation thread!

Sadly, it's true: we have ass-backwards laws because of Christian influence. We ARE descended from Victorian England, after all.... :rolleyes: And the whole Plymouth Rock crew - weren't they leaving because of their religion? Our country is, alas, deeply steeped in moral conservatism.

I love your last post about creating life and ending it...although, it too, is a sad truth.

And Yeah! Bungle! I'd run around my house nekkid with my nekkid kid before I'd buy him a toy gun!!

As for the whole "one nation, under god" thing, wasn't that Eisenhower? 50's or so? I know he is responsible for the "in god we trust" on the one dollar bill. :mad:

I have this to say about prostitution: Amsterdam. While visiting there, I was just out exploring one night, not really sure where I was heading..yadda yadda. So I ended up walking by the red light district. :eek: j/k

They have women just sitting in storefront windows, wearing lingerie and all leaned back. But what struck me most was the look of complete and utter boredom on the woman's face. I laughed my ass off for a good block or so.

We should definitely follow their example...

I'm not even going to touch the abortion one except to say that we have no business battling the issue in the legal realm. It is a social concern and should be dealt with at that level. To eliminate abortion, you must eliminate the need for abortion.....

[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: Cedwyn - damn typo fairies!]

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: Cedwyn ]

[DJ Rawkus]

That teenage pregnancies will sky rocket, and that little girls will grow up aspiring to be hookers. ..don't they already aspire to be the next Britney Spears or J-Lo? What's the difference? :)

. It is a social concern and should be dealt with at that level. To eliminate abortion, you must eliminate the need for abortion..... ..and start telling people to quit humping on a regular basis right? The moral fabric of our country is being stretched in two directions right now, and to ask somebody to deny themselves a natural pleasure such as sex whether it is by some fling or within the confines of legal marriage, well..that seems to be the dilemma at hand. Let's face it, America is hardly repressed when it comes to sex, maybe on TV it is, but read any pop culture media and it's a WHOLE different story. With the advent of Planned Parenthood and organizations like it, the almighty condom is a psychological barrier to having a conservative mindset. It's saying: "Americans, go have lots sex with whomever you like at the moment, and be sure to wear this, becuase usually it works." usually!! If it worked ALL the time, like it's advertised, we wouldn't have so many AIDS patients (im not excluding STD's of lesser nature mind you), or unwanted preganancies...Then there's the people that have a second psychological barrier which is abortion. They tend to think if the first barrier doesn't work, they have abortion lo lean back on. They wonder why they even bother with hormone shots and other preventative measures, and a "i can go have an abortion if this condom doesn't work" type of rationale. This brings us full circle to the "need for abortion"!

Point: eliminate the suggestion that says its acceptable to have sex anytime, along with the lazy morals that say if you have sex, you can dispose of the consequences and you eliminate most of the need for abortion. The loophole is for rape victims of course..that's where we get tied up in legality issues. :rolleyes:

I'm all for individual freedom, but irresponsible sexual behavior i don't condone..abortion is still my major grey area, i'm totally neutral on it.

I won't even touch prostitution, cuz i love me sum trashy "AUWHORA" ave. hoes..hehe :D

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: a ruckus among us ]

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by Sheepdog:
<STRONG>The Constitution contradicts itself. Do you know why? It was written that way by a bunch of slave owning tax evaders </STRONG>

actually, im doing history work right now, and once America was free form Britain and their taxes, they imposed some of their own (8.5% on certan goods, higher taxes for foreign trade and other bs). also, many men who formed the constitution were against slavery. slavery issues jsut happened to be overlooked unitl the civil war era...

[evilarchangel68]

...not that im defending the constitution wholeheartedly as the know-all end-all of truths. it has a very good idea behind it, but its so hard to carry out something to plesse all the people all the time.

for instance, i believe the constitution contradicts itself as, well, but only because peopel contradict themselves and eachother all the time.

one person can say, "it is my constiituional right to curse loudly in if i feel like it". while another would say "i am offended by foul language and it is my right to not be forcd to hear it if i dont want to." both are correct and both are wrong. it all comes down to people having different morals and ideas, and no one can be made happy all of the time.

as far as abortion, i think its a sad sad thing to have happen. but i know if i were to be pregnant right now, i would HAVE to have one...im in no postition (read:BROKE AS FUCK!!!) to pay for prenatal care should i want to give it up for adoption, and im even less of a position to pay for a child should i care for it.

one thing i am completely opposed to though, is partial-birth (third trimester) abortions. they take a fetus and suck its brain out with a vacuum and colapse its skull, at a time of fetal development where a fetus has a good chance of surviving outside the womb. this is just plain sick and wrong...if you're pregnant and dont wnat it, for gods sake take care of it when its still a clump of cells and not when its almost ready to be born...sad sad sad to think there are doctors who can live with themselves and think its ok to perform such an atrocity...

[RacergirlX]

You know what's fucken funny?

The people who founded this country were either religious fanatics or criminals. Really, check it out.

No wonder we're so fucked up.

[Yungrii Mobliatri]

of course, if that happens to you, it's your own fault. Unless of course you are the child of a prostitute or a prostitutes customer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HOW IS IT NOT YOUR FAULT IF YOU SOLICIT A PROSTITUTE??? You are so full of shit I cannot believe it! Fuck off!

sorry , that wasn't very clear.
i meant if you were a child of the prostitute or a child of someone that goes to a prostitute...

[_countess bathory_]

Regardless of it’s initial intents… this thread has quickly spiraled into a prostitution / abortion ethical debate. I believe that Ebeneezer was attempting a correlation between the two. However, I feel compelled to indulge in its misinterpretation for this reason... I find statements such as: “i think the main difference though between the two is that prostitution seems to lead to bad things whereas porn doesn't, except some gooey rags.
prostitution leads to family wreckage and the spread of disease.
of course, if that happens to you, it's your own fault. Unless of course you are the child of a prostitute or a prostitutes customer.”
ABSOULTLY REVOLTING. How DARE you so viciously tear apart a tradition as sacred as whoring? Your ideas of such filth bring me to the belief that you are not only lacking in sociological and historical knowledge, but must have a very depraved idea of what sex is. I feel sorry for YOU, and any partner that might ever engage you.
Whores are, and have always been, a very important part of society. aesthetica-go-go… you fucking go grrl.
Grrrrrrrrr-fucking-owl. :mad:
.02
-liz
P.S. Go PENET

[Lu$HuZ]

Originally posted by Pizzazz:
<STRONG>
A lot of women(and possibly men) go into prostitution because they feel they have no other options. To hold up a drug habit, support a child, school, wutever. Not all of them have a sexual addiction. But i agree that they are the same. Sex for money.</STRONG>

I am sorry that my lack of clarity made you think I said all prostitutes/johns are sex addicts? NO! I said all people who solicit prostitutes and buy pornography! Sexual addiction has three stages: the first stage has many traits, but can involve chronic masturbation & pornography. The second stage is indecent phone calls and exhibitionism, and the third is molestations and rapes. Please don't misconstrue my words to say that all people who beat off to Stephanie Swift once in a while are gonna turn into rapists---just that addictions are a progressive disease--they don't just 'get better'---and sex is a great high---so addiction is a real thing that people struggle with.

And sorry bucko, my point was not that a lot of people besides street-walking prostitutes have sex for money---it was the idea that sex is a commodity which is in high demand.

[Lu$HuZ]

Originally posted by AthenA:
<STRONG>Did you know that an estimated 57% of prostitutes in D.C. are HIV positive? Every prostitute in existance has been raped, robbed, or assulted, but because their activities are illegal, they can't report it? </STRONG>


I don't know where you got your information from but there are plenty of bullshit estimates on the internet that have ridiculous statements like yours. You, like most people, think in the mind set that the only prostitutes are the crack hoes you see on Aurora (in Sea) or South Tacoma Way (T*town of course), etc. It varies upon city to city (why your D.C. "stat" is particularly inflammatory--every city has different laws and customs and there might just be a lot of cheap street hoes in D.C. for all the sex-addicted politicians! [Many men in power have involved fantasies that for various reasons might only be carried out with a prostitute, but I digress]) but street prostitutes usually make up about 20%. Did you hear that, everyone? Most prostitutes are SELF-EMPLOYED, meaning they DON'T HAVE A PIMP THAT BEATS THEM like most of society thinks. I know some prostitutes who have never been raped, beaten, etc. so YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT! (and also it's existence!) I'm glad you feel so sorry for the poor whores, but I'm sure they don't need your bullshit sympathy because you think they are a "thing" that is too s2pid to help itself out of her hole. Prostitution exists everyday in escort services, massage parlors, dancers, etc. and they are not all drug addicts, either! However it is a sad fact that many have been victims of incest or sexual abuse growing up, that is true.

I remember the textbooks and materials I had to work with in high skool (not that long ago) so I know your information sources were heavily biased---and your writing reflects the predjudices, unfortunately predjudices that most of the country holds.

Wouldn't it be great to call all whores filthy and blame them for AIDS? Well, I back my stats up with a web site...although that doesn't mean shit...I know mine are legitamite because I had chanced upon the stats accidentally (on another site) months ago. Thank you UrbanAssaultCutie for saying that a "smart" person wouldn't take the story at the first look---you have to dig deeper to find the truth. Also your response was excellent!

[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: aesthetica-go-go ]

[Lu$HuZ]

Originally posted by meej:
[QB]i dunno about prostitution, but i would argue whether porn dulls the senses to sex.

gotta be careful what kind of generalizations you make...

[QB]

I apologize for my lack of clarity. With sexual addiction porn helps to stimulate, but with time you become dulled to the effects...you want to see double-penetrations, bondage, etc... it's a progressive thing.

Countess~~~ thank you!!! :D ;) :D

[groovegoblin]

Here's a little tid bit about abortion.

I heard on the news today that the first woman in history has been sent to jail for doing drugs while pregnant. So women can kill their unborn children but not get them smoked out? Hell I figure that would be a pretty good way to go out.....

[*badmouse*]

here's the article from the cnn website (http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/05/17/crack.momtrial.ap/index.html)

i have no respect for women who abuse drugs and/or alcohol during pregnancy.
there is simply no excuse for fucking around with someone else's life like that.

(my opinion on this matter comes from growing up with a younger sibling whose birthmother drank heavily and did whatever drugs she could get her hands on throughout the entire pregnancy. my brother is not okay and never will be, all thanks to one woman who couldn't control her behavior long enough to consider the consequences)

[Kosmicdog]

I used to have this slutty friend that would always come over and give me blowjobs. Like 3/4 the way through she would say

"Ill finish you off for a 20$!!"

And I would be like

"Fuck that, whatever I'm not giving you any cash you freak!!"

And without fail she would always continue un-paid. I know for a fact that a bunch of my dumb friends gave her money though.

Just thought I would share :D

[bungle bliss]

Hahahahahaha Kosmic you are fuckin funny....

[Roddimus]

You're right Roddimus and that's why marijuana laws won't change. It's a stupid played out topic that concerns no one but pot smokers.
Wasn't this a post about abortion to begin with? Stay on topic, and/or start a different thread.
Last I checked this post was about the hypocrisy of the US government. My response is still ON topic. I was simply responding to a question posed. I don't see why I need to start a different thread for that.
Furthermore I don't think it's a "stupid played out topic." It's a topic that concerns constitutional violations that affect millions of people in this country everyday. As long as there are people being sent to prison for personal posession of a natural herb, this topic will NEVER be played out. I think that's a very cold and judgemental statement.
By reducing this to a subject that "concerns no one but pot smokers" you're essentially saying it's OK for the government to throw perfectly normal and upstanding citizens in jail simply because a bunch of Puritan pukes want people to live free of all forms of intoxication.
Sorry, but I'm hating the US government more everyday.
I tend to get a little passionate on the subject...
:D

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by Sheepdog:
[QB]It's a stupid played out topic that concerns no one but pot smokers. QB]

Well, I don't smoke pot, I never will smoke pot, and I actually think it's a vile and disgusting habit. No offense to anyone, that's just how I feel about it. But . . . I do care, passionately, that the constitutional rights of every American citizen are violated by the hypocrisy of the American government and by federal drug laws--laws that hurt many, many more people than they help. So I will fight just as hard for the rights of pot smokers as I will for anyone else.

[Sparklecheek]

The other problem, AthenA, with your claim that "57% of all prostitutes in DC are HIV positive" is that only a small percentage of them actually get TESTED for HIV- so your 57% is a sampling of a TEENY, TINY group of prostitutes... not all of them, since by no means have all of them gotten a test. Therefore, the stat means nothing, really. Just thought I'd point that out, though someone else really did already.

[Trixie]

ugh.

it's amazing just how many people can be misled.


right on to countess bathory though: have you read "live nude girls" (i think that's the title...)? so good.

everyone should remember that when you assume you make an ASS out of you and me.


-trixie

[Cedwyn]

Ruckus - Whoa dude!

All I said was that if we wish to eliminate abortion, our only chance is to eliminate the need for it. Nowhere did I propose, hint, suggest or otherwise imply that people quit having sex! My god, man!

But since you did take us there, I was actually thinking of something even more radical: useful sex education classes and readily available, cheap birth control. :eek:

Now, this is not to say that I endorse rampant casual sex; discretion is advisable in almost all things. But it IS high time this country give up the whole ostrich idea and realize that discouragement just doesn't work. People are going to have sex, no matter what. It's going to happen - accept it and make the best of it.

To me, "making the best of it" implies thorough education and reliable birth control. If rampant sex is inevitable, we might as well be as pro-active as possible - you know, damage control. But because these practices are as hotly opposed as abortion (usually by the same folks, too), we have heaps and heaps of uninformed people having less-than-safe sex.

No, of course I'm not delusional enough to believe that would eliminate ALL unwanted pregnancies. But it would sure as hell eliminate most of them.

Look at the figures for countries with exceptional sex education curricula - they overwhelmingly have lower rates of teen/unwanted pregnancies. These same countries also usually make birth control pretty easy to find.

Actually, I can't quite really tell if you agree with me or not; you basically state my point again here:

Point: eliminate the suggestion that says its acceptable to have sex anytime, along with the lazy morals that say if you have sex, you can dispose of the consequences and you eliminate most of the need for abortion.

That pretty much equals

It is a social concern and should be dealt with at that level.

I was just trying to avoid too many details, since it's easy to get off-topic with that one.

Which I have already done....but I must also add that pro choice does NOT equal pro abortion.

p.s. lmao about the spears/loho thing

And Aesthetica - I gotta agree - It seems to me the further down that road you go (porn..bondage...etc.) the further down you have to end up staying...

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: Cedwyn ]

[AthenA]

I realize the conditions under which statistics are taken, and I also know that there is more to prostitution that what meets the eye. The point that I was trying to make is that legalization and regulation of prostitution can reduce the numbers (no matter what they are) and help keep these men and women safe. I think that if there are legalities that keep construction workers safe on the job, there's no reason it shouldn't be done for prostitutes. As for knowing prostitutes that have never been beaten of raped or robbed...I'm sure they exist. However, at this point, it is the risk one takes becoming a prostitute. Some modes of prostitution are safer than others, and often, the corrolation is socio-economic. There's no need for it to be that way. I advocate legal prostitution for the safety of all parties involved. As for Aesthetica, that's pretty unfair of you to assume that you know where I'm coming from. And I don't feel sorry for whores. It is their chosen profession (in most cases). I'm a purchasing agent, and no one feels sorry for me. They chose their profession, and more power to them! I just think that there are measures we can take to make their chosen profession safer. Is there anything wrong with that? :confused:

[Abe in Exile]

Okay...
feel free to flame me, call me a right-wing fanatic etc etc etc (I vote Democrat by the way), but ABORTION IS FUCKING WRONG!!!!!

Once the egg has become attached to the uterine walls there is NO DOUBT that it is a human life growing and forming inside. Why take such a beautiful thing (theconception of life) and kill it? The gray area is the time between when the sperm penetrates the egg and when it becomes attached - I officially have no comment on that.

Women CAN have sex without getting pregnant in the first place. It's called the pill, the shot, the implant, the condom..there are ways, people. Abortion happens because people are TOO FUCKING LAZY to use other contraceptional measures beforehand, because that would actually take some thinking ahead (and heaven forbid we would actually thing about the consequences of our actions).

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough. A little inconvenience for you does not justify killing another human life. Have the child, and have it adopted. Some cities are starting to have "baby drops" in which mothers of pregnancies which they couldn't possibly take care of can just drop the baby off, no questions asked, and it will be give state-subsidized healthcare, shots, and then be adopted. Now that may seem cruel to the babies - but it's a helluvalot better than KILLING THEM. Geez people, this isn't hard to figure out.

Also, why don't you all stop bashing Christians. Every major established religion that has existed for more than 200 years (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, other eastern cultures), they ALL frown on extramarital sex. So please, quit with the flaming that all Christians are backward and we're responsible for all the societal evils against women in this world. What religion is behind the Taliban that destroys historic statues just because they're Buddhist and makes women practically wear these radiation-suit thing so that their sexuality will be under control? Is it Christianty? MEEEP, wrong answer...it's ISLAM. If you actually READ the Bible for a minute you would see that it says to not commit adultery, but it also says to "respect the government and its laws" and also that "all sins are equal in the eyes of God." Is extramarital sex a sin? Yes. Is it any worse than me going 60mph on surface roads on my way to school every day? NO. Oh, let me quote one more Bible verse - "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." You know what that's from? It's from when a bunch of townspeople were going to stone a PROSTITUTE (remember what this thread is about) and Jesus walks up and is like "aight, i know you guys lied on your taxes, i know you rode your donkey over the speed limit, and yuo're no better than she is even if she's had sex with 500 guys so SHUT UP PUT THE ROCKS AWAY AND GO HOME." They did.

I support legalization of marijuanna for all purposes. I support legalization of prostitution with the provision that they must be contained in brothels (like Australia) and must be tested once every two weeks. Then the brothels can be zoned to the adult entertainment areas - West Burnside in Portland, South Pacific HWY in Federal Way, the entire city of Lakewood, etc etc etc...

I personally don't smoke weed and never will. I personally plan on saving my virginity until marriage (oh, now THERE'S one way to open myself up to be flamed if i ever saw one), and I personally will never have sex with a prostitute. But I don't see where it's my place to judge anyone else for these things, and morally none of it is any worse than going 36 in a 35 (let alone 60).

So yeah. There's my views. Pro-weed, pro-whore, vehemently anti-abortion. flame away.

[Roddimus]

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough. A little inconvenience for you does not justify killing another human life.
:mad: A LITTLE INCONVENIENCE??????? :mad:
:mad: WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?????? :mad:
You try being pregnant for nine fucking months you insensitive scab.
Imagine starting everyday with your face in the toilet for twenty minutes.
Imagine the back breaking pain of lugging around 10+ extra pounds in your belly.
Imagine going through the agonizing pain of child birth.
If there was a procedure that could prevent all of this I think you would take it in an instant.
If I were a woman, I'd rest easy in the thought that I had spared another life from this fuct up world, as well as prevented the population from growing anymore (like we NEED more people to burden this world).
About 80% of anti-abortion activists are male.
If that doesn't say it all right there, I don't know what will.
:mad:

[AthenA]

Preach it, brotha man!!! Men like you give me hope.... :cool:

[sonic::bionic]

I lived in Germany for three years. Prostitution is legal and regulated, condoms are sold in vending machines on the street, and from what my German friends told me, they get very good sex education at school. Teen magazines have "love stories" that usually end up with a couple meeting and then having sex, nudity is on public TV, billboards, etc.

From what I've read and been told, Germany has a lower incidence of teen pregnancy, rape, abortion, and STD's than the US. Could they be on to something? :rolleyes:

[Primal]

Werd to Roddimus!!! And if you're really interested prostitution, move to Canada, it's legal there :D

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by boobookitty:
<STRONG>First, you say that abortion happens because people are too lazy to to take precautions. This may be true in some cases but not in enough cases to justify abortion being outlawed for all. The fact of the matter is that not all people are capable of taking precautions[. . .] but did you ever think about the fact that some people may not have the level of education (or level of comprehension) that you need to make informed decisions.</STRONG>

Susie Bright, who has been lecturing on human sexuality at American universities for 15 years, recently reported some of the more commonplace questions being asked of her at her seminars:

"Is it possible to get pregnant from oral sex?"
"What is masturbation, and how do you do it?"
"Can masturbation hurt a person in any way?"
"What is an orgasm?"
"Can you get sexually transmitted diseases from oral sex?"
"Can you get AIDS from a mosquito?"

These questions came from students at Northwestern University the "equivalent to an Ivy League school in the Midwest," kids who needed 3.5-4.0 GPAs and really high SAT scores just to be accepted.
It is highly probable that The reason for such ignorance is the abstinence only sex education offered in 48 of the 50 states. These kids weren't taught how to put a condom on an erect penis using a cucumber or banana. These kids know shit about safe sex (pardon my French), be it for purposes of disease prevention or birth control.
It's not just about one's economic status, it's also about the socio-political climate in this country, and the extreme conservative backlash we are currently in. Perhaps the imagery on television has gotten more explicit, but the culture is getting more and more restrictive.

On a further note, as cold and callous as it sounds, some people should just not reproduce! A girl I used to be friends with, her mother was a neurotic religious fanatic, her father was an alcoholic. Her eldest brother could only be described as a pyromaniac carny and was borderline retarded to boot, and her other brother had Tourette's. My ex-pal was depressed, had ADD, and had no sense of reality. She now 19 and lives with an abusive ex-skinhead alcoholic.
My eldest sister, though I love her dearly, should never have had my niece. I love Ariel; she is a sweet and bright little girl, but she is going to be so fucked up when she grows up. My sister is non-medically controlled and has borderline personality disorder. And that's on top of her other problems. She hasn't held a job for longer than 6 months in the last 12 years. She lived in my mother's living room (with my poor niece!) for 3 years, and before that she was living in my little sister's bedroom at my dad's house for 2 years! This is not a stable environment for my niece, but nothing can be done about it. I'm sure many of you know people, usually very young, but not always, who can barely care for themselves, much less another human being, one who is entirely dependent upon them. Something to consider . . .

PS--Hope I didn't embarrass or depress anyone there! :)

PPS--The info above about Susie Bright came from this month's Playboy Forum (yes, I read Playboy). Here's a link (http://www.playboy.com/magazine/current/forum) to it.

PPPS--Word to Roddimus, Hand Solo, boobookitty, badmouse, groovinkim, and all the rest!

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: Princess Tam Tam ]

[crystalraver2001]

NoToRiUsAbE~are you going to take care of ALL the unwanted, abused, negleted, homeless, hungry children in the world? no? didn't think so. who the fuck are you to tell me or anyone else what to do with their body. you have got to be a man. *notice~the sentance before was directed toward that type of man. not all men are crazy, there are a few of them that aren't* .....

i saw this hbo documentry about abortion fanatics just a couple of weeks ago....they seriously lack a few brain cells(they are fucking nuttier than a payday bar). you anti-abortionists are a bunch of FREAKS with no life at all. fucking freaks.....

lotsoflove,
crystal

[danielTHEtiger]

fuck you.
i was one of those ".000000001%" of women even after using a serious dose of emergency/morning after pills (we did use protection but the condom broke too late for us to notice).
carrying a child to term meant that i would have had to give up finishing my thesis research (and graduating from college), an option i was not willing to consider.

and to every one else that could'nt have a baby right now but still has sex with protection.

Everyone know no mater what you do you can still get pregnant and or contract an STD. So if your in a situaton where you do drugs, go to school, or for whatever reason you cant take care of a child or there was a possibily the child could have health problems do to your lifestyle, maybe you just shouldnt be haveing sex.

[Cedwyn]

No, Crystal - people against abortion are not a bunch of freaks. I personally like to think that no one is actually in favor of abortion....

The difference is those people (like myself) who believe abortion is not good, but also believe that it is inappropriate to try to legislate against it. I don't like abortions and therefore wouldn't get one....that's about all I can do. Besides, accidents do happen and even the most careful women get pregnant.

But I must admit I have problems with someone having, say, 2 or 3 abortions - the statistics simply do not support birth control failing that many times for the same person.

But, as has been mentioned, far too many people actually think abortion is a viable form of birth control, which is innaproriate - typical American reactive instead of pro-active mentality. It should only be a last-ditch solution. But until we have REAL sex education and cheap, readily available birth control, I do not see the situation improving. sigh

my hat's off to badmouse...you shared quite a bit of yourself in here. ballsy...

[Cedwyn]

And Daniel and Abe - I think your strong language might be putting people off from your actual message, which is actually my mom's perspective on it and the only anti-abortion argument I can hear without puking.

Her philosophy is that sex has risks, pregnancy being one of them, and if you know you are not capable of accepting those possible consequences, then taking that chance is inappropriate.

But come on, man....abortion is NOT an easy choice to make and the women who have had to go there do not deserve scorn from strangers on a bbs. ESPECIALLY from men. So lay off the judgemental attitudes.....

[Abe in Exile]

Let me preface this statement with something I noticed: No one wanted to debate me on my statement about bashing Christians. Perhaps because most other established religions are much more strict than Christianity when it comes to sexuality? I know it's vogue to bash the bible-thumpers, but you might try backing it up with logic. Heaven forbid you might ever admit a prejudice against Christians that makes you less receptive to THEIR ideas but more receptive to everyone else's (how come when the Dahli Lama talks about peace everyone says it's cool but when a Cchristian talks about peace in the middle east he's cast as being some sort of anti-arab religious fanatic?). Now to the abortion issue.

Roddimus: [conceitedness on] I have no interest in debating someone who cannot argue their point with me at an intellectual level and must instead resort to personal insults. I have no reason to defend myself against your immaturity, and I will not waste board space on it. [/conceitedness off]

BooBooKitty: Condoms are unreliable. How 'bout Depo or EC? If you wanted to have sex that bad you could've gone out and bought them - don't tell me YOU'RE uneducated, because you obviously know something about this subject, and if you have the money to go to raves you have the money to get decent birth control - it costs way less than an abortion anyway. What it requires is THINKING AHEAD, something that is not very prevalent in our society, even among the smart people.

Badmouse: I'm sorry. Your situation is fucked up. However, you could be dead. Have you killed yourself? No. The fact that you have not yet committed suicide indicates that you believe there is something in your life worth living. So what if your mother had decided to not to have you? Would you enjoy the happiness in your life that comes in between the sadness? No. Would you be here posting on this board? No. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people AT ALL, even those from tough circumstances and those with fucked up lives, that would say "oh I wish my mom had had an abortion." Unborn children can't say "NOOOOOO, DON'T KILL ME, I WANNA LIVE, PLEEEEEEEEEASE" - so who says we get to make the choice for them? BTW I don't think that abortion is wrong just because the Bible says so, if I really thought it was my job to judge people based on Christianity I would have posts saying "ANYONE WHO SMOKES DRUGS OR HAS SEX WILL GO TO HELL". But I'm not. One verse I believe firmly in, as I said earlier, is "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" - it's not my place to tell you what God does and doesn't want. But from a purely SECULAR standpoint, this society regards murder as wrong (why else do we put people in jail for it) and that's what abortion is.

Kim: Yes, the rate of birth control failure is incredibly high with condom use. I've said it before and I'll say it again - CONDOMS ARE UNRELIABLE. That's why there's Depo, EC, and a host of other things to choose from.

Athena: You seem very capable of debating this issue intelligently, so why rah rah someone like Roddimus who responds with nothing more than childish insults? Now to the point. 3 out of 1000 is definitely noticeable in a country of 216 million (or 109 million females). However, I suggest you do an experiment. Let's find out the number of abortions done in the US since Roe v Wade (i think about 3.5 million). Now, let's say that all those women had used Depo. That's only 10,500 abortions. Now let's say that all those 10,500 women who used Depo had all used EC, which is about 97% effective. Now we're down to 315 people. Responsibility coupled with effective government sex-education programs (which i SUPPORT) and subsidized birth control for the poor (which i again SUPPORT) would've prevented all but 315 of these. Now I know that Depo and EC weren't around the whole time, so obviously all that couldn't have been prevented. But with TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY, you would be dealing with 315 babies and not about 3.5 million. For you to defend abortion, what you are saying is this:
The loss of one year of productivity for 315 women, with profound negative consequences on their social and financial status, is worth the lives of 3.5 million people. 3,500,000 for the good of 315. Now if that isn't Hitleresque, I don't know what is.

Hand Solo: Yes, we could learn a lot from the Germans. By the way, Germany has the same protestant roots America does - it was rule by socialist dictators (i.e. HITLER) with the philosophy of "there is no god" forced on people that brought seperation of church and state to the point where government sex education programs, subsidized birth control for the poor, and less censorship of images deemed offensive were made possible.

Princess Tam Tam: Who are you to say that she will be fucked up when she grows up if she's "bright" now? But let's just assume she will be. Let's look beyond the years of teenage strife and fast forward to her as a 30 year old and all the lives she may have positively impacted. Are you telling me she'd be better of dead? Their circumstances are unfortunate, but living in your Mother's living room is incredibly plush compared to the surroundings of many families around the world. Just because their situation is poor RELATIVE TO AMERICA doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to live. I don't believe you can sit down on the floor with your niece, see her smile, and play with her, and then get up and say "oh well she'd be better off dead, her mother should've just killed her."

CrystalRaver2001: You saw a documentary on HBO. OMG. You are SOOOOO educated on this subject, you must know everything. Look, I'll say this FANATICS WHO GO AND SHOOT UP ABORTION CLINICS ARE WRONG. But there is a difference between someone like me and someone like the guy who walks into planned parenthood with a gun and starts capping people. That's just wrong. I don't support those people. But applying the results of a study that showed that fanatics who go and shoot innocent people are chemically imbalanced and then twisting it around to say that all people who are pro-life are wakked is an extremely illogical conclusion.

To all: I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in and debate it, and name calling isn't going to throw me. I do have a lot of respect for the people that disagree with me but can do math and respond to me with facts, instead of just dumb statements like "fuck you" or "you're a male so you're not allowed to have an opinion."

Let the flames and intelligent responses alike continue...


---AbE

[Abe in Exile]

big phat WERD Cedwyn and Cedwyn's mom...

I'm somewhere between a libertarian and a democrat, and I firmly believe people should have the right to decide what to do with themselves and their bodies. However, ABORTION AFFECTS ANOTHER PERSON - the baby. It's not a "victimless crime" like someone smoking pot or masturbating - if is an act that kills another human being.

[sothis]

notorious:

well hey, guess what. some of us cant take things like depo.

ive been on depo for a year and a half, and im one of the unlucky percentage of women (which is quite high) who have quite a bad reaction to it. basically, due to the lack of estrogen (depo has no estrogen, only prostregen (sp)), the lining of your uterus will not stay, and it constantly sheds. in layman's terms, that means you continously bleed.

i bled for 9 months straight on depo provera. and dont just tell me thats a little bit of an inconvenience. finally, they told me well, the only way itll stop is if you start taking the pill also. the reason why i never just took the pill in teh first place is because i dont remember to take it the same time every day. i sleep in on weekends, etc, and i dont remember. and dont say "well, you shoudl be responsible and remember"... because you will never be in my shoes, its not easy to remember to take a pill at the same time every single day, every day, years in a row, trust me.

so anyways, i started taking the pill AND the depo, just because i knew id prolly get pregnant without it. guess what? im still bleeding off and on, to this day. now i was told i cant keep taking both at once, cuz its too much hormones for my body. so i guess its S.O.L. for me, eh? and you cant tell me that i have other options, because i dont really. norplant and intra uterine devices will cause the same kind of bleeding in women who have my kind of problem with depo. im going to have to start taking this new shot thats only been out like, 7 months, lunelle.. its like the pill but in shot form, once a month. but if there isnt enough estrogen in it, guess what?!?!?!? i STILL BLEED ALL THE TIME. and guess how much it costs? $65.00 A MONTH.

im telling you this story to prove to you that birth control is not all fun and games, and its not some easy thing that any woman can do. i have tried to be responsible, and my body wont let me. and LOTS of women have this same problem with the shot/etc. taking a pill isnt easy either. you seem to think that women can juts go out and have no side effects or problems with birth control.. and trust me, wearing a tampon for 9 months/bleeding all over yourself for 9 months is not fun, its a huge hassle, and its horrible. and now, if this new shot doesnt work, i might have to just take the pill, and guess what? ill prolly get pregnant which scares the hell out of me. not because im not responsible, because based on what i just told you, you should know im trying my hardest.. .but i dont know what else i can do, yanno?

so please, dont just use this "go out and get better birth control" argument. depo is evil and lots of women have this bleeding problem.. and other methods have other serious risks/complications as well that are quite common. its not like putting a band aid on, there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

[danielTHEtiger]

Um...ok strong lauguage in my post? Maybe to-the-point, but strong? I understand this whole abortion thing and I never said if I was for it or not. And Im not tryin' to judge *badmouse* directly (notice: and to every one else that could'nt have a baby right now but still has sex with protection). The post was just a good example. I understand the pain and emotion in this situation, and I hope all things go well for everyone put in it.

[evilarchangel68]

i forgot who said it, but there was a person who mentioned how, had it not been for the amount of abortions in the U.S., our population would be absolutely booming right now (and that population issues are a huge reason for a lot of the wordls troubles).

you know...i wholeheartedly agree with this statemenet. our population would be throught hte roof right now had it not been for the amount of abortions already done.

BUT---since when should abortion be used as an effective means of birth control? and since when should abortion be considered as having positive attributes as a population control method???

it shouldnt.

abortion should be used only as a last ditch effort...in cases where a womans body doesnt respond to conventional birth control methods without her knowledge until one day---oooops, im pregnant, uh oh...

abortion should be used in cases where people have no say in their sexual encounter...rape and incest...how damaging would it be to the mother and child to know that you have been forced to inbreed, or that you are the result of such inbreeding? and how damaging would it be to have to grow up thinking every day, "my mother didnt want me. she was forced to have sex. i am an accident. i am a product of violence. the man who fathered me has violated a woman and thats the only reason im here." those arent healthy lifestyles, unless of course, the babies were given up for adoption so neither party would have to think about what happened...anyways...

but about the population thing...sooooo many cases of abortions could be avoided if people took into consideration the options of birth control and being careful. it is my personal belief that people should NEVER consider abortion as a way of population control...how about considering effective BIRTH CONTROL as a way of population control?

sothis...about the depo thing...

that really sucks. i know a lot of poeple who say depo is soooo great and its gods gift to women, oyu quit having your period, you should get on it, blah blah blah...

but then there are the OTHER cases where things go horribly wrong. one person i know got pregnant while using it and then miscarried in her, like, 5th month. other people constantly bleed, like you. other poeple have to get the shot every month because it wears off too quickly and they run the risk of getting preggo.

and for other methods, many of them dont work either...there are so many poeple who take the pill and dont get the same effects as other people, and still have a high chance of getting pregnant.

there are poeple who get those implants and get sick from them, or when its time to take them out, they get 'stuck' so to speak, and have to go through a bitch ass process of getting them out.

condoms break, and some poeple are allergic to latex.

vaginal films (ive heard) make the vagina incredibly sticky and dry feeling, and cause a mess everywhere.

IUD's have potential to cause uterine infections.

and what does that leave? nothing...except sterilization for hte female or vastectomies for the male. oh yeah, speaking of the male...isnt there some shot ro pill they were working on that men could take so that they wouldnt get a girl pregnant? if its out already, why dont more men take responsibility into their own hands and help out with the birth control for once?

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: angelstar_68 ]

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by NoToRiUsAbE:
<STRONG>Princess Tam Tam: Who are you to say that she will be fucked up when she grows up if she's "bright" now? But let's just assume she will be. Let's look beyond the years of teenage strife and fast forward to her as a 30 year old and all the lives she may have positively impacted. Are you telling me she'd be better of dead? Their circumstances are unfortunate, but living in your Mother's living room is incredibly plush compared to the surroundings of many families around the world. Just because their situation is poor RELATIVE TO AMERICA doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to live. I don't believe you can sit down on the floor with your niece, see her smile, and play with her, and then get up and say "oh well she'd be better off dead, her mother should've just killed her."
---AbE</STRONG>

Are you demented? No, this isn't a flame, it's a serious fucking (pardon my French, but I am incensed by this assumption of yours) question. Never once did I say that Ariel would be "better off dead." I would not trade anything for her and would happily sacrifice my own well-being for her own.

Why the hell would you think that intelligence and mental/emotional instability are mutually incompatible? Did I ever say my sister was stupid? Hell no. Like most of my family, she is extremely well-read and intelligent. That has nothing to do with her many, many mental and emotional problems.
And yes, living in my mother's living room is a damn sight better than, say, living in a car, but the point was that this little girl, in all the nearly ten years of her life, has only had her own bedroom for three of them . . . and that's including this last three months. She has spent the rest of that time living in other people's homes, their living rooms, bedrooms, and offices. She has, in affect, been bred to feel like an interloper, sometimes even in the places where she should have been the most welcom (ie her grandparents' homes). And that is really sad.
That was hardly a stable environment, something little kids really need during their formative years. And there was also the fact that the two men my sister lived with during the intervals between living off of her friends and family were sick, abusive men. The last was an alcoholic whose sense of duty and responsibility was aptly illustrated the time one of our sisters was incredibly ill and needed to be taken to the ER, but our car was out of town. She called him, he said he'd be right over to take them to the ER . . . 45 minutes later she found another friend to do it. We all found out later that he had gone to his bar to watch the soccer match instead. Growing up around these people will positively influence my niece?
The reason I think she will be so fucked up is b/c she isn't receiving the best foundation for her life. the rest of us do what we can, spending as much time with her as possible, but nothing can repair the damage that is done to her every day by her mother. (No, she doesn't beat her.) And I know that people can rise above their beginnings to be happy and fully functional human beings, and believe me, I want that for her so bad, but I also know how hard it is to escape the demons of one's early life . . . my sister's problems aren't all genetic, believe me . . . .

Also, I do realize how precious life is, especially when held against the choice of bearing a child, but from the other side. When my mother found out she was pregnant with me, she had also recently discovered that she had a malignant growth that would need to be removed. She was given a choice of aborting me and having the necessary operation, or carrying me as long as possible and then most likely having a hysterectomy, thereby ending her chances to have anymore children. I think her choice was obvious. I don't think she ever regrets her decision, but I sometimes do.

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by Cedwyn:
<STRONG>The difference is those people (like myself) who believe abortion is not good, but also believe that it is inappropriate to try to legislate against it. I don't like abortions and therefore wouldn't get one....that's about all I can do. Besides, accidents do happen and even the most careful women get pregnant.</STRONG>

Yes. But I haven't ever met anyone who actually considered abortion birth control. The women I have known who have had abortions agonized over their decision, and only came to it b/c they thought it was the only one thy could make. Whether they were ritht or wrong I cannot say, but if they were wrong, then they do suffer for it even now . . . .

[boobookitty]

Originally posted by NoToRiUsAbE:
<STRONG>ABORTION IS FUCKING WRONG!!!!!

Women CAN have sex without getting pregnant in the first place. It's called the pill, the shot, the implant, the condom..there are ways, people. Abortion happens because people are TOO FUCKING LAZY to use other contraceptional measures beforehand, because that would actually take some thinking ahead (and heaven forbid we would actually thing about the consequences of our actions).

Now that may seem cruel to the babies - but it's a helluvalot better than KILLING THEM. Geez people, this isn't hard to figure out.
</STRONG>

OK, you expected to get flamed but I am not "flaming you", just attempting to debate your arguement...

First, you say that abortion happens because people are too lazy to to take precautions. This may be true in some cases but not in enough cases to justify abortion being outlawed for all. The fact of the matter is that not all people are capable of taking precautions. Rape is the obvious example but did you ever think about the fact that some people may not have the level of education (or level of comprehension) that you need to make informed decisions. It would be easy then to say, "Well, they need to get the education". However, the socio-economic problems in this country are so complex and ingrained that simply demanding that people educate themselves is not realistic.

What is next, telling people that if they are not educated, monetarily secure, or sane that they cannot have sex? Right! Can you really see our judeo-christian based government condoning that? *Gasp* Why that's a violation of freedom! :rolleyes:

I agree that there are lots of options other than having an abortion for someone that has an unplanned pregnancy. I don't condone "killing babies" either. Now, I won't argue definitions here, it is clear that neither of us would budge on our views about what is a baby and what is a fetus.

I will argue the following points:

Overpopulation can be traced as a major contributing factor to almost every problem our society (or the world) faces today.

We have prolonged death of old and sick people so that we all can live to be 80. Think of how much more quickly our population would boom if people stopped terminating pregnancies. Not everyone has to choose that option but I would much rather have a "death" occur than have a baby be born to a resentful home, drug abusers or a household in poverty.
Adoption is another option but again we still have the problem of too many people, not enough resources. Did you know that Oregon is the state in the US with the highest level of food insecurity (aka hunger)? Having more babies is not going to help solve our problems.

Besides, this existence as we know it is a cycle of life and death. Death happens, we will all die eventually. Look around you, look at the crowded cities, the shrinking countryside - everything is paved, cars are everywhere, people are angry about too much traffic, our national forests are dwindling rapidly. Africa, India and China are at the threshold of disaster. Is abortion the real important issue at hand?
:confused:

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: boobookitty ]

[*badmouse*]

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough.

fuck you.
i was one of those ".000000001%" of women even after using a serious dose of emergency/morning after pills (we did use protection but the condom broke too late for us to notice).
carrying a child to term meant that i would have had to give up finishing my thesis research (and graduating from college), an option i was not willing to consider.
i wasn't ready to give up a child for adoption either, i've lived with adoptee issues my entire fucking life and i wasn't ready to add another dimension to it all.
it's been almost 8 years since i first had contact with my birthmother and i've still got a long way to go before i feel completely at peace with the situation, i wasn't ready to be a birthmother myself at that point.

and who are you to tell me that i'm wrong for deciding what is best for myself?
i have nothing but respect for people who have faith in god (or whoever), i think faith is even a good thing for people who need it.
but i don't expect someone else's faith to dictate how i handle myself.

Some cities are starting to have "baby drops" in which mothers of pregnancies which they couldn't possibly take care of can just drop the baby off, no questions asked

*screams*
i hate "no questions asked" policies.
i had no idea of my own medical background until i was 16 because back when i was adopted there were similar policies.
my parents had no idea that adopting my brother meant that they would spend the rest of their lives caring for someone with a great deal of mental and emotional deficits caused by fetal alcohol and drug abuse because his birthmother never bothered to mention any of it to the adoption agency.
i am glad that my parents are the ones that adopted him, though, they are the strongest people i know and take really good care of him. but it's still not fair for "no quesitons asked" policies to create situations like that, it's not fair to the parents who adopt.

[antiplur superstar]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

likeppl have already said it isn't part of the constitution . . i don't think it's even an official document, it's a childern's peom. It originally read . . one nation under OUR FLAG . . . it was changed in the '50's . . . . i feel it should be reverted to it's original form . . . some oponants of taking out "under god" try to hide behind but that's they way it's always been . . BUT THAT"S NOT THE WAY IT"S ALWAYS BEEN . . . i would be much happier with the pledge in it's original form

I heard on the news today that the first woman in history has been sent to jail for doing drugs while pregnant. So women can kill their unborn children but not get them smoked out? Hell I figure that would be a pretty good way to go out.....



these are two seperate issues. Abortion simply ends the pregnancy . . end of story . . . taking drugs while pregnant on the other hand subjects the soon to be born child to possible life long defects . . . where abortion simply ends preganacy taking drugs while pregnant with no intent to terminate is a form of child abuse and should be punishable by law.

[groovinkim]

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough.

it's easy for you to say tough. you can relax comfortably, knowing you will never be a pregnant teenager.

the rate of birth control failure is unfortunately much higher than that percentage, though. it's as high as 10% in some situations.

[AthenA]

Whoa!!! That was just bad. You seem like a nice kid, NoToRiUsAbE, but that was preety uncouth. First off, I don't and never will even consider the opinion of a male in the matter. Unless, of course, you were my boyfriend and I was pregnant. Now, until you have first hand accounts of the situation (which is not possible), you're opinion is nothing but opinionated ignorance. Now, Depo-Provera is one of the most effective methods of birth control available. However, it is only 99.7 percent effective. That means that 3 out of 1000 girl on it get pregnant. That's a lot of girls. These girls were as careful as they could be. Who are you to say that they should have to keep it? If a woman has the right to get cancer operated on, they have the right to abortion. During the first trimester, a fetus is merely a malignant ball of cells. Just like a tumor. It feeds on your living healthy cells to grow. It make no difference what it may become. It's what it is that counts. O.k., look at it this way...I'm 18. I've been on Depo for 1.5 yrs. I've only been with one person ever, and I'm still with him. I've been very careful. Unfortunately, it is possible to get pregnant, and I'm afraid that I might be. Let's say for the sake of argument, that I am. I smoke. I drink. I use drugs recreationally. Let's say i'm most of the way through the first trimester. The likelyhood that the fetus' development has been retarded in some way is very high. If I abort, I not only save this potential child from a miserable life, I do the same for myself. If I do not, I not only have ruined their life, but mine and my boyfriend's also. Is it fair to trade 3 lives for 1? It's just not logical. By aborting this child, I give myself and me significant other a second chance. I do not in any way advocate abortion as a form of birth control. I believe that if you are wreckless, you must suffer the consequences. I do, however, advocate abortion as a life saving measure. And for you to think otherwise is silly. Especially in the case of probable retardation or defect. We put sick dogs to sleep because it's humane. We can't do this for a sick baby, even though they can't feel a thing because they aren't developed? I don't understand how we treat animals more humanely than we treat each other...
:confused:

[DJ Rawkus]

Cedwyn: i was simply being devil's advocate (er ..god's advocate..whatever) in my last post. im not insinuating that people quit having sex, and i know you wouldnt say that either. In fact i agree with you on your views to a T..I just wish some people on this board could take a hint and realize you can be passionate and not be so p(ass)ionate about it. ;) this society regards murder as wrong (why else do we put people in jail for it) ..i thought it was because the gov't and private institutions made HUGE money off of it. It's all 'bout revenue baby! Correct me if i am wrong. :confused:

[Abe in Exile]

sothis: That really REALLY sucks, and I have a lot of sympathy for you. It shouldn't have to be that way. But unfortunately, it is. You have the choice of either [a] having sex and taking the birth control with the negative side effects, [b] not taking the birth control, having sex, and getting pregnant, [c] having an abortion, or [d] just not having sex. You know what? It really sucks to be you. You probably won't believe me because of my next sentence but I'm honestly truly sorry you have to put up with that shit. The answer is simple - don't have sex. "NO! THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE!" you scream. Well, if the goodie-goodies can save it til marriage, you can certainly stop with the sex until you decide you're ready to have kids. Or, you can live with the shitty effects of birth control that last continuously for the hour of pleasure every weekend that you get from sex. That doesn't seemt to me to be a tough decision. If the egg has been fertilized and has been attached to the uterine wall, then it is a living human being. You do not have the right to kill another human being just so you can experience the pleasure of sex. It's only because of misguided people who think that a fetus is not a person that this shiznit is allowed to go on. You know what? When Roe v Wade was decided, Ultrasounds weren't in use. NO ONE COULD SEE WHAT WAS IN THERE. Now we have ultrasounds. At the end of the FIRST TRIMESTER you can look at the shape in there and tell it is most definiitely a little baby child. You don't have the right to kill another human being just so you can experience sexual pleasure.

Angelstar: That argument holds absolutely no water whatsoever. There have been approx. 3.5 million abortions performed in the United States since Roe v Wade - hardly enough people to overpopulate this country. The US produces vastly more food than it consumes - we have a favorable balance of trade when it comes to agriculture. And many areas of the country are not even being utilized to their full capacity, with the latest and most modern farming methods. The point? THE UNITED STATES IS IN NO DANGER OF BECOMING OVERPOPULATED. The standard symbols of US overpopulation - endless traffic jams, sprawl, etc, are not evidence that the US is overpopulated, but rather that the US did not have efficient land-use policies. The city of Sydney, Australia is roughly the size of Seattle, Bellevue, and Kirkland combined and yet holds over 10 million people in relative comfort, while the sprawling area around here (even WITH all the apartments downtown) holds only about 800,000 people. The cities don't have to keep growing, the forest and farmland doesn't have to keep getting torn up to suppoirt more people. This country has enough supplies coupled with technology to sustain a population of one billion on its own. 3.5 million added to 216 million would hardly push our country over the edge. As for the women in cases against there control, is is better that baby is DEAD? Would you rather have a DEAD child than a child that knows he/she came from a broken home? If so, why don't we just go find all the kids in foster care and any other children overseen by the DSHS and shoot them right now? After all, it would be the same thing - "i'm your mother and i am deciding that you would be better off not living in this world."

Princess Tam Tam:

I would not trade anything for her and would happily sacrifice my own well-being for her
own.
and yet you use Ariel as an example for why abortion should be legal. Ariel's situation SUCKS. I'm honestly sorry for that. Growing up in a broken home and being made to feel like and interloper SUCKS ASS, but it's better than being DEAD. Which is where she would be if her mom had had an abortion. If you would trade your own well-being for hers, as you so put it, why would you advocate that she should have never been allowed to live in the first place? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Abortion is wrong 100% of the time. There are no exceptions. Just because the child's mother was raped, or because the child will be growing up in a broken home, is no excuse for KILLING AN INNOCENT UNBORN CHILD, which is what abortion is.

[RacergirlX]

I'll make this brief . . .

No, I am not using Ariel's situation to justify abortion, I am simply using it to illustrate the point I made earlier, about how certain people shouldn't be out there popping out babies. My sister can hardly care for herself, much less her child, and should never have had one. But since she did, we do what we can to help her and to help Ariel. She's really lucky to have a supportive family. That is hardly the same as saying she should be dead.
Yes, adoption could be an option for some of those people, but pregnancy is really expensive. And makes it difficult to keep a job, even in this "enlightened" day and age.

[trancendental*destiny]

all i have to say prozac v.s acid
prozac is more damaging to your neurons yet its legal and very accepted...acid which isnt nearly as bad is illegal ( not that i take either). some things just dont make sense. your best bet. instead of complaining take action..go to law school. try and change things for the better. knowlege is power

[crystalraver2001]

Originally posted by NoToRiUsAbE:
[QB
But there is a difference between someone like me and someone like the guy who walks into planned parenthood with a gun and starts capping people.
[/QB]

NO, I DON'T THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. YOU ARE STILL A FREAK.

[sonic::bionic]

FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK ABORTION IS WRONG:

Where should we draw the line as to what is considered abortion? Conception? Should masturbation be outlawed because it wastes perfectly good sperm that could have turned out to be babies? How about women selling eggs? How about women having periods? Should we force women to take a drug every month that prevents them from wasting a perfectly good egg? Just curious.

[Yungrii Mobliatri]

i don't really think i should be sticking my nose in here , but i will, but briefly, in my opinion, abortions are wrong. i don't think wasting sperm or eggs is wrong either. i don't know when suddenly a fetus turns into a human and gains the same level of consciousness as an adult or what not. i know people that have had abortions because of having had sex by will. i definately think that is wrong. when it comes to rape i still say abortion is wrong, and i know it pisses people off. being male i could never understand what it must be like to be a pregnant female. but to me the point is that abortion is murder, and while having a baby can definately be hard work and can definately screw you up i think the point is i would rather have a screwed up life and have the option to fix it than be in the babies position and have absolutely no life any longer.

[crystalraver2001]

Originally posted by Yungrii Mobliatri:
<STRONG>i don't really think i should be sticking my nose in here , but i will, but briefly, in my opinion, abortions are wrong. i don't think wasting sperm or eggs is wrong either. i don't know when suddenly a fetus turns into a human and gains the same level of consciousness as an adult or what not. i know people that have had abortions because of having had sex by will. i definately think that is wrong. when it comes to rape i still say abortion is wrong, and i know it pisses people off. being male i could never understand what it must be like to be a pregnant female. but to me the point is that abortion is murder, and while having a baby can definately be hard work and can definately screw you up i think the point is i would rather have a screwed up life and have the option to fix it than be in the babies position and have absolutely no life any longer.</STRONG>

so what if you are a female that was raped by her father or brother, then got pregnant. you think she should still have that baby? are you fucking serious? what is wrong with people?

[DJ Rawkus]

I think crystalraver needs to learn some tact. Sweetie, you seem to be somebody that shoots off their mouth alot w/o thinking beforehand. If you want to be taken seriously, i'd work on that little problem of yours. People are entitled to their differences, and that doesn't give you the right to be the jury on what/who they are. :)

[DJ Rawkus]

and now back to prostitution...an actual story of what it's like.
Don't ever look at me with pity. I don't.

I like my life. How many other twenty-eight year-old women do you know who make well over six figures a year? Not many, I'll bet, and those that do probably work sixty or seventy hours a week. I only have to clock in fifteen or twenty.

Please don't call me a hooker. I am not some little crack addict shivering on a street corner for her pimp. I'm a call girl, although I prefer the term rent girl, or professional girl. See, I'm for rent. My clients hire me for a specified amount of time, I provide a service and then I'm out the door. You can rent me, but I am not owned by anyone.

You probably think I had some messed up childhood where my mama beat me and my daddy screwed me and I ran away from home at the age of fourteen. Not true. I grew up a nice Irish Catholic girl in the suburbs of Chicago. My parents are kind people. I call them weekly.

To me, it's pure business. If I can make a lot of money with my body, why not?

I saw a therapist for a while because I was worried about my lack of guilt about my chosen profession. Even she had to admit that I'm well adjusted.

The minute I hit thirty I'm out of the life. Eight years is long enough. I want to get out before I turn bitter and cynical. I have been socking my money into sound investments and I must say, I have an impressive portfolio. Most of the professional girls I know are terrible savers. God, what a pack of airheads that can't see past next Friday. They go for the flash cars, jewelry and designer clothes. When their looks go, where will they be? Me, I've always been a pragmatic person. I drive a respectable Toyota Camry, not a BMW or a Mercedes. I own a modest, but nice, condo in Georgetown. I find my Donna Karan suits and Gucci pumps at outlet stores or a few great consignment shops I know in New York. I've got my future to worry about.

You'd look at me on the street and have absolutely no clue I'm a working girl. Most people picture call girls as being six feet tall, with mile long legs and hair down to
their ass. Wearing stiletto heels and a low-cut dress with a slit up the side. That's just stupid thinking. You watch too many detective movies. If you dress like that, you might as well hang a sign around your neck that says *hooker*.

Tiger Lilies, my agency, instructs us to dress professionally. See, most of our dates are in business hotels and there is no way I'm getting past security dressed provocatively. Thus, the navy blue and gray
business suits, the trench coat, the briefcase.

You could say I just fell into my current profession. After I graduated from Northwestern, I moved to D.C. to
work for a big financial consulting firm. God, I hated that job, but it was how I thought I was supposed to be living my life. Most nights I didn't get home until 8 or 9 at night and I was too tired to do anything but microwave a Lean Cuisine and fall asleep on the couch only to get up
and start the process again the next day. It wasn't a life, merely an existence.

Three times a week I made the time to work out at a health club near my apartment, which is where I met Vanessa. We'd
climb the Stairmaster together and chitchat about guys, movies, and clothes, that sort of thing. Finally, one night as we were changing in the locker room, I got around to asking her what she did for a living.

Vanessa flashed me a mischievous mile. "Are you sure you want to know, Amy?" she asked.

"Why, are you a spy or something?" I asked. In D.C., you never know.

She laughed. "No, it's not that bad. Actually, I'm a call girl."

My jaw hit the floor. Vanessa, a prostitute? No way. She was far too clean-cut looking for that. Vanessa stopped brushing her hair and turned to face me.
"What did you expect, a crackhead in hot pants? No, I work for the most exclusive agency in the city. It's nice, clean, easy work and I probably make about 3 or 4 times
what you do."

I stammered, "But, but, isn't it degrading? Dangerous?"

She shook her head. "Why does it have to be degrading? It's my body and I should be able to do with it anything I see fit. As for dangerous, not really. Let's just say
that Tiger Lilies offers me a certain amount of protection." She pursed her lips and went on applying her lipstick.

I was dumbfounded, but also terribly curious. Vanessa glanced at me appraisingly. "You know, Amy, if you ever
get tired of crunching numbers, let me know. I could always arrange an introduction. Tiger Lilies is always
short on redheads."

I laughed. Me, a clean cut woman from Evanston, Illinois, trying to be a call girl. It was the craziest thing I had even heard.

Three days later I was in an office in an anonymous corporate complex, interviewing with Joanne, who manages Tiger Lilies. That weekend I did my first job. At the Watergate Hotel, no less.

I am sure you are wondering if I felt guilty, if I felt dirty. Nope. I counted my money and thought, this is easier than I expected.

Did I feel pleasure? Of course not. It's business, that's all.

I don't do drugs. None of us at Tiger Lilies do. They randomly test us and if it comes out positive, out you go. Mixing a call girl and drugs is bad for business. Girls skip their appointments, people get arrested. If we're arrested, out we go. I'm healthy, too. I take an HIV test
every other month. If my clients don't want to play safe, out the door I go. If a client gives me any hassle, he's in big trouble.

My life is relatively normal. I work out, read a lot and take a lot of vacations, which I can do with my flexible schedule. I've hiked in Costa Rica and sailed the Greek Isles. Took the Trans-Siberian Railroad from Moscow to Beijing. Right now, I'm taking some art history classes at
Georgetown because once I finish with my current career I am opening my own art gallery. Michael, my boyfriend, is a
painter in New York. A pretty successful one too.

Yes, Michael knows what I do. I told him the first night we met, at a Soho gallery opening four years ago. Believe it or not, he didn't care. Maybe it's because he's an artist, but it really didn't faze him. He understands the difference between business and pleasure.

You could say I'm a lucky girl. I have a nice life. But according to the government, I'm a criminal and if I ever got caught in the act, I could lose everything, even though in theory I should be allowed to do whatever I want with my body. Doesn't make much sense does it?

[antiplur superstar]

Angelstar: That argument holds absolutely no water whatsoever. There have been approx. 3.5 million abortions performed in the United States since Roe v Wade - hardly enough people to overpopulate this country.

This is true. Abortion will have little to know affect on overpopulation, esp in america. We have practically a 0 growth rate at this point .,. . . and that includes imigration. But consider this . . about 18-20 yrs after roe vs. wade there was a suddend drop in americas crime rate. there were many ppl who we willing to take credit for the results. But what if it wasn't some compicated anti crime anitiative? What if it was alot simpler then that? when children are preganacies are aborted they are usually dope by women who don't want the child or by women who can't raise the child. If those pregnancies who have come full term the childern who would have been born would have been in a high risk group to become . . lets face it . . criminals. It is very likely that our dip in the crime rate could very well be a result of women 20+ yrs ago aborting a future generation of criminals. though I realize how could and haertless this sounds it doesn't make the argument anyless valid. Abortion may not have an affect on the population but i very well may have an affect on crime.

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by a ruckus among us:
<STRONG>I think crystalraver needs to learn some tact. Sweetie, you seem to be somebody that shoots off their mouth alot w/o thinking beforehand. If you want to be taken seriously, i'd work on that little problem of yours. People are entitled to their differences, and that doesn't give you the right to be the jury on what/who they are. :)</STRONG>

WHAT? That's all she gets? You never called me sweetie!

[Yungrii Mobliatri]

Originally posted by crystalraver2001:
<STRONG>so what if you are a female that was raped by her father or brother, then got pregnant. you think she should still have that baby? are you fucking serious? what is wrong with people?</STRONG>

yes,i do. goodnite.

[Cedwyn]

No one wanted to debate me on my statement about bashing Christians. Perhaps because most other established religions are much more strict than Christianity when it comes to sexuality

Abe - we are simply not concerned with those other religions because they are not the ones that shaped our country's morals - USA was founded by CHRISTIAN fanatics, not Muslims. ;)

[Sparklecheek]

You don't have the right to kill another human being just so you can experience sexual pleasure.

And you are not god. So how 'bout stepping down from the pulpit and quit ordering women around as if you were? Jesus, you fucking pro-lifers are so damn self righteous. It makes me want to barf. I saw a bumper sticker once that reminds me a lot of you, Notoriousabe: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." The double standard is not something you can deny, because the men running this country will draft thousands of 18 year olds to go fight a losing battle and consequently have them all killed, but when a woman wants to make a choice for herself... suddenly they're all, "murder is wrong!" Fucking hypocrites.

Also, you mentioned earlier that going on the pill is cheaper than having an abortion... wrong again. Do your research. An abortion is a one-time, astronomical cost, but the pill is an ongoing astronomical cost. Being on the pill for a little over a year costs as much as having one abortion.

So. I have this friend. She got pregnant even though she used a condom, was on the pill (diligently) and went through 6 weeks of boot camp. Would you condemn her for having an abortion, too, the way you seem to be condemning others who are in situations you'll never know anything about?

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by Hand Solo:
<STRONG> Where should we draw the line as to what is considered abortion? [. . .] Should masturbation be outlawed because it wastes perfectly good sperm that could have turned out to be babies? </STRONG>

Well, early Christian philosophy held that fellatio was cannabalism--assuming the person swallowed--because babies were in the sperm. The female was just an incubator.

Just thinking about that kind of makes me wonder if that's part of the unconcious fear/hatred for abortion . . . Can't waste the precious man-babies!

[Abe in Exile]

Princess Tam Tam: That is a perfect argument for why certain people should NOT HAVE SEX - or, if they can use birth control (and i'm talking REAL birth control not some crappy piece of rubber), use it - and if they are one of the 1 in 10,000 who it fails for, then I guess they'll have to live with the consequences of their decision - THEY chose to have sex. But I agree with you, certain people should not breed. Problem is convincing those certain people to not have sex at all (easier said that done).

trancedental*destiny: yep, a lot of things are wacked in this world. i'm talking about one of them.

crystalraver2001: &lt;conceitedness on&gt; Congratulations. You have just resorted to name calling. People resort to name calling when they cannot back up their arguments logically with facts. I'm really sorry you're incapable of debating your position intelligently with me. Perhaps someday you will grow up. &lt;/conceitedness off&gt;

Hand Solo: The line is really simple, actually. Given normal conditions, sperm or unfetilized eggs could not survive. But given normal conditions (i.e. the womb), a so-called "fetus" could survive and become a healthy baby. When the egg attaches to the uterine wall, it becomes a human life. The time between fertilization and wall attachment is a gray area, and anything prior to fertilization is not a human life. A fertilized, attached, egg is a human life - no exceptions.

Yungrii Mobliatri: big phat W3RD! I couldn't have said it better myself. And, you must've done a good job explaining yourself, seeing as how crystalraver2001 attacked you too.

a ruckus among us: That's really kewl. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs too, I lived a little west of the Lake St (Green Line) El terminal - I assume you must've logged quite a few hours on the Purple Line in your school days. Your argument kicks @$$. This is exactly why prostitution should be legal. If it was, there would be more stable people like you and less streetwalkers in hot pants. The only thing I didn't get about your argument was the idea that you wouldn't have normally been the "type" to choose that profession. Of course you were! Redhead Irish Catholic Schoolgirls, GEEZ, how much closer to fetish material can you get? LoL. Good luck on the art gallery.

Boogie Man: That's an interesting perspective, and I think there's probably some truth in it. Essentially, since the would-be criminals were killed before they even had a chance to become criminals, there were less criminals. I believe that correlation. However, if killing the criminals before they commit any crime whatsoever is acceptable, why are so many people these days so against capital punishment? We can kill innocent babies from crime-prone families before they even have a chance to prove the statistics wrong, but we can't kill convicted criminals. Riiiiight.

Sparklecheek: There is a big difference between killing someone because it was inconvenient for you or because you thought you knew what was best for them, and dying in battle for the good of your own country. I don't support the idea of drafts, but your logic doesn't connect. As for your friend, I wouldn't "condemn" her - but I would say what she did was wrong. I don't think anyone who honestly thought about what a human life really is and whether it's okay to kill it or not would have an abortion. It's people who have been fed a bunch of BS by the media and the government and even the women's rights movement (a sad thing, since the women's rights movement has brought so much good to this country, that it would also advocate killing people). Yeah, I'm sorry that the birth control didn't work for your friend. That doesn't give her the right to MURDER anyone. I don't judge people for doing what they want with themselves, but an abortion is affecting ANOTHER life - a human being.

Princess Tam Tam: I think that's pretty funny actually. I can tell you exaclty where that came from too. I've grown up my life in Christian circles and it seems like there are a higher percentage of prudes within Christianity then without it. People who just, for one reason or another, aren't comfortable with something. These people will try to pull some Bible verse out of thin air and use it to substantiate their PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS. A prime example are the people who think all women should wear long gray skirts and it's absolutely horrible that anyone would wear a two-piece bathing suit. They try to back up this backwardness by citing a Bible verse telling women to "behave modestly" - obscure at best, and most likely relating primarily to the time and place where the letter was written (much of the Bible consists of letters written by the apostles, prophets, etc etc to other people). It sounds like your "early Christians" were just so grossed out by the idea of guys sticking their dicks in their wives' mouths that they tried to come up with a Biblical precedent for not doing it. LoL. Pretty funny stuff.

[DJ Rawkus]

a ruckus among us: That's really kewl. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs too, I lived a little west of the Lake St (Green Line) El terminal - I assume you must've logged quite a few hours on the Purple Line in your school days. Your argument kicks @$$. This is exactly why prostitution should be legal. If it was, there would be more stable people like you and less streetwalkers in hot pants. The only thing I didn't get about your argument was the idea that you wouldn't have normally been the "type" to choose that profession. Of course you were! Redhead Irish Catholic Schoolgirls, GEEZ, how much closer to fetish material can you get? LoL. Good luck on the art gallery. ..This ain't my story, it's an acquaintance of mine whom I have yet to actually meet. When I asked her what she did for a living, I got an email which was this story. I'm glad you liked it.

[Roddimus]

NoToRiUsAbE~
Look at it this way.
When the egg is fertilized and attaches itself to the uteran wall, it is nothing more than a malignant growth.
Whether or not it could develop into a human life is irrelevant. When it is in the first stages of growth, it is NOT a human life. It cannot comprehend, it cannot self-actualize and it cannot THINK. It is just a bundle of cells feeding off the woman.
Every woman has the right to remove a tumor right? SO why should a woman not have the right to remove a malignant growth in her belly?
Trying to make abortion illegal is like making suicide illegal. Not only is it pointless and impossible to enforce, but it squashes every person's right to do with as they please to their body.
And besides, like we need more people on this planet. I think 6 billion+ is enough.

PS- I apologize if I insulted you with my previous post. But your comment was extremely offensive, so I replied accordingly.

[evilarchangel68]

notoriusable:

DID YOU READ MY WHOLE POST AND NOT JSUT THE FIRST TWO SENTENCES???

you pretty much jsut bitched me out for something i dont even think is right. you jsut happened not to read enough to know that i feel abortion is very very sad and should only be used as A LAST DITCH EFFORT!!!!!

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by Sparklecheek:
<STRONG>

Also, you mentioned earlier that going on the pill is cheaper than having an abortion... wrong again. Do your research. An abortion is a one-time, astronomical cost, but the pill is an ongoing astronomical cost. Being on the pill for a little over a year costs as much as having one abortion. </STRONG>

yes, but you arent taking into consideration EMOTIONAL cost.

i personally would rather be on the pill and have no emotional guilt and uneasyness, as opposed to not being precautios, having an abortion, and living the rest of my life in the world of "what if?" and guilt.

[sothis]

yes, but you arent taking into consideration EMOTIONAL cost.

id rather have that than the $65.00 a month i have to start spending on a stupid shot.

[Sparklecheek]

angelstar: I see what you're saying. But I was just pointing out that Notoriousabe was stating untrue facts about the actual cost of birth control versus abortion. I realize that the emotional cost of abortion is much greater. ;)

Notoriousabe: You're clearly pretty embedded in your conviction that you are right and everyone else is wrong. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I respect that. But I think what you are failing to do here is distinguish individual situations. There is such an amazingly huge difference between woman A, who has casual, unprotected sex without any thought, and woman B who has responsible, protected sex but lacks the financial or emotional means to care for a baby. Or woman C, who was brutally raped and ended up with a baby. How can you create a blanket generalization for all these women? How can you justify bringing a child of rape to term, knowing that his or her life will be tainted by that forever? And why are you trying so hard to impose your set of core values on all the women of the world, regardless of their situations? You say you are somewhere between a democrat and a libertarian, but to me you sound like you're somewhere between mildly conservative and extremely conservative.

I assume your concern for abortion comes from a place in your heart that you call compassion, but I cease to believe in your compassion if you would rather see a baby born into poverty, neglect and abuse than to be mercifully terminated.

The thing is, dude... I personally would never have an abortion, but I would never go around telling other women not to. Why? Because I am in a situation where I could provide everything needed for a child. But not everyone is, and you're a damn fool if you think the whole world is ready for parenting. Please think about that.

And by the by, do you support the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Just curious. Be honest now.

[ 05-20-2001: Message edited by: Sparklecheek ]

[Abe in Exile]

Cheeky Little Monkey aka a ruckus among us: Crap, and here I thought I was gonna meet someone else who knew the ins and outs of the Chicago Rapid Transit system. Oh well...

Roddimus: I'm not debating you. You weren't intelligent enough to respond with logic the first time, I have no reason to even read your post now.

AngelStar_68: I realize you think abortio is wrong. I read all whole of everyone's post. I do not post on something I have not read all the way through, please don't accuse me of that. My postition is that ABORTION IS WRONG EVEN AS A LAST DITCH EFFORT. Killing someone as a "last ditch effort" versus killing someone first - it's still killing someone. And you're right about the emotional cost - so WHY do we make it legal to kill unborn babies? It shouldn't be legal. Not as a last ditch effort, not as an "only for rape victims," it shouldn't be legal AT ALL. It's MURDER.

Sothis: "I'd rather kill someone than pay $65.00 a month." Right. Like I said before, I'm sorry that you react badly to Depo. Ever consider just not having sex? Your situation sucks, but it don't give you the right to kill someone. Get a vibrator.

Sparklecheek: Okay let me clarify this accusation of being conservative. In this thread I have reiterated I support legalizing prostitution and recreational drug use. Let me also add that I am a rabid mass transit advocate who supports light rail and monorail and is currently working on forming a group to stop the rebuilding of the Alaskan Way Viaduct (SR 99) and instead tear it down, leaving the waterfront free more more pedestrian, bicycle paths and a double-track streetcar. My chosen career is the field of light-rail design. I support affirmative action. Must I go on? The liberterian side to me is that I firmly believe people have a constitutional right to do whatever they want with themselves, and just because I'm a goodie-goodie who's never smoked pot and is saving his virginity til marriage doesn't mean I should attempt to force my personal decisions on the rest of the populace. Now, for "blanket statements." There is no excuse for KILLING AN UNBORN CHILD, PERIOD PARAGRAPH. There is no such thing as "mercifully terminat[ing]" a baby's life. You ask me if I'd rather see a baby born into poverty, neglect, and abuse than killed. The answer is a resounding YES. If killing an innocent life is merciful, why don't we take all the children born into poverty, neglect, and abuse and kill them right now. Get some glocks, go into the ghetto, and shoot up the public housing projects. Right now. After all, it would be "Merciful" to end those children's lives rather than allow them to grow up in a screwed up home. As for Timothy McVeigh? ASSUMING the new FBI evidence still proves that he is guilty, I wholeheartedly support his execution 100%. This is a man who is not sorry for the crime he committed and has admitted his guilt. Let's get him out of the way. Now you asked that to draw a paralell to children. How is an unborn kid on the same level as a mass murderer? Can you kill hundreds of people while still in the womb? I don't think so. Unborn children are as innocent as any human being will ever be, and are the LEAST deserving of death of any segment of our population. And yet we kill them.

BTW who wants to join my Anti-Viaduct group? LoL

[Roddimus]

Jesus Christ!
Even when I try to be the "kind" "intellectual" you want, you still shoot me down!!!
WELL, if you had even BOTHERED to read my post, you'd see that I apologized for reacting so harshly the first time around.
But, I guess that sort of attitude goes along with the typical anti-abortion line of thinking; ie- Stereotype and dismiss first and don't even bother asking questions later.
I was willing to give you a second chance, but you just proved yourself 10 times more childish as immature than you claim I was.
Ugh.

[Nukegrrrl]

The right to a safe and legal abortion, as granted by Roe vs. Wade, is swiftly eroding beneath our feet as puppet president Dubya Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft make restrictions and criticisms of abortion and organizations in support of it whenever the oppurtunity arises.
Abortion procedure bans, being brought up in many state governments, will chip away at Roe vs. Wade until nothing is left. I doubt that our current federal government will stand in the way of the states although Roe vs. Wade, a federal Supreme Court ruling, is above the state laws.
Many of these state laws restrict availability to particular age groups or ban particular procedures, such as late term/ 3rd trimester abortions (in the last 3 months of pregnancy). With only one exception, none of these laws mentions stage of pregnancy.
That means that these bans could apply to abortions at every stage of pregnancy. The laws are so loosely worded as to create loopholes where abortion rights could be terminated altogether.
As the National Organization of Women recognizes,"Abortion procedure bans passed in 28 states are so vaguely worded that they could ban abortions throughout pregnancy, even in the first trimester.
Proponents of these bans admit they intend to limit or eliminate access to all abortions." The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists describes abortion procedure bans as ". . . inappropriate, ill-advised and dangerous." The American Medical Women's Association also opposes such bans.
In essence there is no need to ban or control 3rd trimester abortions. They are few and far between. Only four one-hundredths of one percent of legal abortions are performed during the 3rd trimester. Over 95 % of all abortions are performed during the first 15 weeks of pregnancy. Most 3rd trimester abortions involve wanted pregnancies that go tragically wrong when the woman's life or health is threatened or the fetus develops abnormalities incompatible with life. These women deserve protection, even though their situations are rare.
And even if abortion was made illegal, women would still seek the procedure out. Even if D&C, the prefered method of doctors were to be banned, it would still be perfectly legal to go to K-Mart and buy a coat hanger or knitting needle.
Women are not to be stopped by laws governing the control of their bodies by and for men.

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by Nukegrrrl:
<STRONG>Women are not to be stopped by laws governing the control of their bodies by and for men.</STRONG>

The ONLY problem I have with abortion is the fact that men are not represented when it comes to abortion. For example: I have a girlfriend, we have sex, she gets pregnant. If I want the child, and she doesn't, I have no say whatsoever if she wants to abort it. That child is mine, too....and even if I'm offering to pay for everything, and raise the baby by myself, it doesn't matter. The same goes for if she wants the baby and I don't, but I don't think any man should try to talk a woman into getting an abortion.

I know that there's no way to legislate this, and if was, unscrupulous men would probably abuse it. Some of you ladies will probably misinterpret my statements and proceed to flame me, but that's cool. The whole point is, there are two people involved, and both people's wants and needs should be taken into consideration.

[Sparklecheek]

Notoriousabe: Your response to Jesse (Roddimus) only goes to show me that you are more of a fool than I had originally thought. You have to understand that what you are saying here is going to illicit some VERY strong reactions. Jesse apologized for his insults and moved along with the debate. He is one of the most intelligent and eloquent people on this board and you are an idiot to block him out of this discussion. He's being the bigger person here- if you can't rise to meet him there, you need to grow up.

As for Timothy McVeigh? ASSUMING the new FBI evidence still proves that he is guilty, I wholeheartedly support his execution 100%.

And right here, your whole argument just falls to pieces for me. I can't buy into one word that you say, Notoriousabe, because you just added yourself to the ranks of conservative hypocrites out there. You go around preaching about how murder is SO FUCKING WRONG, but yet you'll turn around and take an eye for an eye if the crime is great enough. Can you please justify to me how the federal government can imprison a man for murder and then punish him with murder??? What kind of message does that send to the public- that murder is wrong? No!!! It says that murder is the just and correct thing to do, if someone is "bad enough." You may not be a conservative on the ballot, man, but when it comes to this issue you are right up there with Ashcroft and Buchanan. Sorry, but it's true. And if there wasn't such a load of two-faced bullshit involved in your politics, I'd actually be inclined to try to see things your way.

What you proved to me by telling me you support the death penalty while you condemn abortion is that it is NOT about murder and it is NOT about compassion for you, it's about something else. I don't know what, maybe the need to control other people by trying to take the moral high ground, but I no longer believe you when you say "murder is wrong!" (Murder of a fetus or anything else.) If you truly believed that, you would rather watch McVeigh rot in prison for the rest of his life, instead of giving him exactly what he wants, which is a televised martyrdom. :mad:

[ 05-21-2001: Message edited by: Sparklecheek ]

[sothis]

word to roddimus.

arguing with you is pointless, notorious.. its like talking to a wall. so i dont see any point in saying anything else to you. as soon as you can bleed for 9 months, and then force yourself to not have sex, you can argue with me. until then, i dont care how much sympathy you have for my situation. as far as im concerned, getting rid of a clump of cells in my body is not murder. maybe for you it is, but for myself, it is not. period.

[antiplur superstar]

The death pneamlty is a seperate issue for me. I support abortion but not the death penalty.

We now when something is alive and we know when something is dead but we don't know when something becomes dead or when something becomes alive. We you exicute a prisoner you know that before you started they we alive and when you finsh they will be dead. When you abort a pregnancy you don't know that is was alive in terms that we understand as alive that is why I leave the choice up to every woman. I'm not self righteous enough to say that I KNOW when life happens there for I'm not going to legislate my beliefs as so many here seem willling to do. To abort a pregancy if a difficult dicision, one Im glad I don't have to make.

[Abe in Exile]

Um, Roddimus? You just made a blanket statement about all pro-life people again. way to go.

Nukegrrrl: Um, what is a "safe" abortion exactly? Killing someone? Pretty unsafe to me. Let me say that I think Dubya is a complete asshole who doesn't care about the environment or anyone else and is a puppet for Big Oil. There are only two things on his entire platform I agree with him on - abortion and missile defense. The rest of it I hate. I would've voted for Nader. Now as for 3rd-Trimesters...you're saying that because they are somewhat uncommon compared to 1st-trimester abortions, they shouldn't be banned. I see. So what you're saying is, something incredibly gruesome that is not committed by everyone shouldn't be banned to stop the people who do commit it. I'll even stop arguing for an outright ban on abortion for a minute. Let's suppose we wanted to make 1st and 2nd trimesters legal, but outlaw 3rds. Just because they are "few and far between" doesn't make it okay. Look at it this way. Most slaughterhouses treat animals humanely and make sure tyhey are properly stunned before killing them. A few slaughterhouses DON'T, and are cruel to animals. Is it wrong to boycott the ones that are cruel to animals, just because most of the rest are okay? The answer is an obvious and resounding no. We protest the inhumane slaughterhouses precisely because they are the exceptions. And yet you use this logic to justify third-trimester abortions being legal. Now one more quote: "Women are not to be stopped by laws governing the control of their bodies by and for men". If abortion was made illegal, the law prohibiting it would not be "by and for men." It would be by and for the unborn, innocent children - who are most likely 51% female, 49% male, the same as the rest of the population. It's not for men. It's for little innocent boys and girls. Saying it's "for men" is a stupid excuse designed to shut people up for fear they would be branded a chauvinist because they support the rights of unborn children. It's the same as a few people from the rainier valley playing the race card because they're uncomfortable with the idea of light rail and and so they try and say that it's "racist" because it takes some property for the right-of-way and there's more blacks per person in the rainier valley than other places in Seattle. BULL SHIZNIT, I say, please don't try to play the sexism card on the abortion issue because I see right through it.

Hand Solo: No, there's three people involved - man woman child - four if there's twins, five if there's triplets, etc etc etc

Sparklecheek: Yeah, okay, my bad. I'll debate Roddimus next time he posts in this thread. And, it would appear you didn't read my whole thread either. An unborn child is not the same as a mass murderer. An unborn cihld has commited no wrong. In fact, I said this already. Let me quote myself:
How is an unborn kid on the same level as a mass murderer? Can you kill hundreds of people while still in the womb? I don't think so. Unborn children are as innocent as any human being will ever be, and are the LEAST deserving of death of any segment of our population
Also, please look up in Webster's dictionary the difference between "murder" and "execution" - they are two seperate words, pertaining to different things. The EXECUTION of Timothy McVeigh is different than the MURDER of an unborn child.
What you proved to me by telling me you support the death penalty while you condemn abortion is that it is NOT about murder and it is NOT about compassion for you, it's about something else. I don't know what, maybe the need to control other people by trying to take the moral high ground, but I no longer believe you when you say "murder is wrong!"
Oh please. It is completely about the rights of the unborn cihld. The LITTLE KID has not committed any wrong at all. He/she hasn't killed 100 people. He/she hasn't done anything. He/she CAN'T EVEN SPEAK FOR HIM/HERSELF. So HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THE TWO. The fact is you can't. It's not a "load of two-faced bullshit," it's the truth. You can't compare a mass murderer to an innocent baby. You can't. There's no "alterior motive" and you're not advancing your argument any by accusing me of it.

Sothis: I can fully relate to "forc[ing] [my]self to not have sex," because I DO. I am going to be in college for four more years. As said before, i'm one of those goodie-goodies who is saving it for marriage. That means the minimum age I can possibly be before I have sex is 22 years old. The first time a gilr offered me sex I was 15. That's seven years I could've been having sex without having it. So yes, I CAN relate to not having sex. You might try it sometime.

Boogie Man: While I don't agree with your view on abortion, thank you for at least recognizing them as seperate issues. You make a valid point about you being self righteous enough to say that you know exactly when life happens. So let me tell you how I came to that conclusion myself. As far as I'm concerned, there is no doubt that a baby in the third trimester is life. On an ultrasound you can see that it's living, breathing, kicking, you can see eyes and hands and feet and even tell whether it's a boy or a girl or not. Plus, babies are born premature all the time at 6 or 7 or 8 months, and most of them live. It it could survive outside the womb as a premature birth, it must be life. Now how far back in the pregnancy does life start? Can it be determined? As you rewind the clock on the unborn child (or fetus, whatever you want to call it) developing, there is no sudden event that can be distinguished as the beginning of life. Organs such as the brain, the heart, the lungs, etc form gradually - there is no set start time. There are only two instantaneous events in the development of a baby - the fertilization of the egg, and the attachment of the egg to the uterine wall. The official position of the Catholic Church on the matter is that the moment the egg is fertilized, it becomes a human life. I'm not so sure on that. After the egg is attached to the uterine wall, though, there are no more significant, rapid changes that occur and therefore no milestones that you can point at and pinpoint "this is where life starts." So as far as I am concerned, when the egg is attached to the uterine wall it becomes life. As for the time between fertilization and attachment - well, it might be a human life then. But, like you, it's not my place to judge that because it hasn't yet been proven an unattached egg could survive and develop. Until that's proven, I will not debate what should happen to the egg before the uterine wall and whether it is life or not. I have no opinion on that. But I do know that once attached, it will usually survive, and so life DEFINITELY exists at that point - whether it begins there or whether it begins at fertilization is debatable.


Now, one more thing: I am supposed to feel bad that "on this issue I am right up there with Ashcroft and Buchanan." Why? I don't formulate my ideas and opinions based on some goal of trying to be the opposite of someone else. I formulate my views based on what I consider to be all the facts, not on trying to not be like someone else. If I have the same view on Abortion as Ashcroft...who cares? I think his views on drugs are WACK. But just because I am a liberal in most aspects of my political views doesn't mean I can't agree with the conservatives on an issue or two. Abortion and missile defense. That's all. Abortion and missile defense.


So who wants to help me stop the Viaduct?

[Abe in Exile]

shit my posts are getting WAYYY to long

[Sparklecheek]

I'm not self righteous enough to say that I KNOW when life happens there for I'm not going to legislate my beliefs as so many here seem willling to do.

Nope, there's just one person here who claims to know when life begins and when it should end. :rolleyes:

But yeah, the only thing that comes across when people try to make claims like that is their self righteousness, and that characteristic makes it very hard to hear what they are actually trying to say. The self-proclaimed conceit doesn't assist his argument, either. Just makes him sound like a blowhard.

[Abe in Exile]

&lt;/conceitedness off&gt; okay sorry about that, now back to posting in other threads &lt;conceitedness on&gt;

[Sparklecheek]

I sure hope you're not one of those people who refers to himself as a Christian (I suspect that because there's not too many people left out there who are "saving it"), cuz you're giving that denomination a bad name if so.

Well, I'm done slamming my head against THIS brick wall, as Sothis so eloqently put it, but my final thought is this: execution and murder are the same thing. Either way, someone dies a gruesome death, and if you are one to decry abortion yet watch with glee as McVeigh fries in the chair, you are nothing but a big, fat, white hypocrite.

End of story. It's been nice talking to you. Good luck ever finding a girlfriend who won't be horrified by your bigoted view of her body.

[DJ Rawkus]

He is one of the most intelligent and eloquent people on this board and you are an idiot to block him out of this discussion. He's being the bigger person here- if you can't rise to meet him there, you need to grow up. ...he is? seems like kind of an arrogant prick IMHO. *shrug* But he can sure thrown down sum beatz.. :p

[Sparklecheek]

No, he's a really nice guy. He's a good friend of mine. I don't think you can judge someone 100% by what they say on this board. You can get an idea, but not the whole picture. :D

[Roddimus]

Cheeky Little Monkey~
Sorry if I'm coming across as an arrogant prick. It's just that NoToRiUsAbE is really getting on my nerves. I'm really a nice guy if you meet me.
As for you NoToRiUsAbE, well...I don't know if ANYthing I say from here on out will even matter to you. You've refused to talk to me on an intellectual level this whole time, no matter how much I try to make amends and move on.
I only made the generalization about you because that was EXACTLY what you were doing.
The fact that you're not replying to ANY of my arguments leads me to believe a few things. First, you're very judgemental and close minded when it comes to debating. Second, my agruments are correct, and you KNOW they are correct. You simply don't have the guns to fire back.
You have yet to use a shred of scientifically based evidence in any of your arguments. So far all I've seen is a personal opinion based in other people's personal opinions.
Myself and others have given scientific fact and data to support our opinions, which tend to make a much more valid point than "ABORTION IS MURDER!"
Abortion is not murder. Abortion is a procedure used to remove tissue from a woman's uterus. 90% of abortions are done within the first month or two of pregnacy. This is well before the potential fetus has even begun to take on any human features. As I said before, it cannot think, so therefore it is not human! It is simply a bundle of cells feeding off the woman.
Life does not begin when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Any doctor or scientist will tell you this. All that happens is a chemical reaction that results in the rapid multiplication of cells.
But, like I said before, I seriously doubt any of this is going to matter to you.
I await your dismissal.

[AthenA]

I am a little late in addressing this, but I still feel the need to do so. AbE, you suggested that I am intelligent enough to debate this issue. In the same breath you speak condesendingly of my approval of Roddimus' point of view, suggesting that it made my arguments less intelligent. I've had this exact same conversation thousands of times with thousands of different people, usually men. No matter what side they're on, I have never heard a man take a woman's physical discomfort during pregnancy into consideration. I admire any man who attempts to put himself into a woman's shoes regarding pregnancy. Although it is impossible for a man to ever fully understand the pain and discomfort, both physically and emotionally, it is noble of him to try to understand. Because he has shown more consideration and compassion than any man I've ever spoken with about the topic, I will continue to freely "rah, rah" him as long as the conversation continues, whether I do it publicly or merely to myself. My displays of approval for his statements should have no bearing on the arguments I make. You're a smart kid...I've known that since we first talked, but I do not want this conversation to ruin my opinion of you (nor your's of me), but commenting on when and how I choose to compliment someone was pretty borderline, buddy. I have respected your opinions thus far, and I'd appreciate that you do the same. ;)

[Nukegrrrl]

A "safe" abortion is when the woman is not at risk of dying during what is physically a minor, outpatient operation.
Also, how is an embryo a "child", or an "unborn child", and how can it be innocent when it does not make conscious choices?
Should the embryo be valued over the woman and her free will?
I personally believe not.
And yes, Hand Solo, you are right about abortion being an important decision that the male should be involved in, too, especially when they are willing to give financial and emotional assisitance. It's just that more often than not, women in need of abortions don't have the support of a loving partner to make it through 9 months of pregnancy, childbirth, and 18+ years of raising a person.
Something to chew on: it is estimated that 40% of women of childbearing age have had an abortion. That means that maybe 40% of the women important to you in your life and even strangers on the street have had an abortion. They just don't talk about it because there is such a huge social stigma attatched to it and much guilt attatched.

[Abe in Exile]

Good luck ever finding a girlfriend who won't be horrified by your bigoted view of her body.
Already got one :P ;)

Roddimus: Aight, intellectual level time. Here's the "guns." How do we know that the fetus cannot think? I agree, that is a workable (if imperfect) definition of life...who was it that said "I think, therefore I am"? In your opinion, what constitutes intelligent thought? Even less, what constitutes "thought" at all? I await with interest your responses to these questions.

Now, to another thing that has been bugging me for some time - your referral to the fetus as a "malignant growth." Having just dusted off my copy of the New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary of the English Language, let me quote it:
Malignant adj.
A: feeling, showing or acting with extreme ill will
B: (med., of a disease) tending to be fatal with out treatment
C: (med., of a tumor) tending to metastasize and lead to death.
From the latin word "malignans"


Now, let us ask ourselves three questions about the fetus. Does it mestasitize and lead to death? No. In fact, given normal conditions without intervention, the fetus will develop into what is undisputably a human being. So that rules out C.

Is the fetus generally fatal to the mother if left untreated? The answer is no. While prior to modern technology there were many instances of women dying during the act of childbirth, the vast majority of women have always been able to give birth to a child and then continue living. So B is incorrect.

As for defition A, does the fetus feel show or act with extreme ill will? The answer is, again, no. For one thing, to act with extreme ill will one would need to have a will period, and if you are going to argue that the fetus is incapable of thought then there is absolutely no way it could have an ill will if it can't even think. If the fetus CAN think (which I believe, and there is significant scientific evidence to suggest), then would it be ill-willed? Again, the answer is no. If the fetus could think, it would most likely think in terms of trying to survive - which is exactly what it does. Unborn children constantly readjust their position in the womb for optimum comfort, and in their later stages of development exercise their muscles by kicking, in order to prevent atrophy. The unborn child, or fetus (the terminology doesn't change what it is), does not wish the mother ill at all.

So, for someone who is incapable of debating you, I think I have just done a pretty good job of proving part of your argument wrong. An unborn child is not a malignant growth. I await your definition of what "thought" is.

Sincerely,

The Notorius AbE

[Abe in Exile]

AthenA: My bad. Sorry.

Nukegrrrl: Where do you get your data? I just logged onto the Census Bureau's webpage and downloaded the demographic profile of the United States. The Census divides people up into 10-year categories seperated on the 5's, so for the purposes of simplicity let us define "childbearing age" as the age range of 15-44 years old. According to the government, 124,224,142 are within this age range. Multiplying by .509 to find the number of females, we get 63,230,088 women of childbearing age. Now, 3.5 million abortions have been performed since the Roe v Wade decision. Since that has been over two decades, it is likely that this number is spread across a broad segment of the population, and not just the women of childbearing age now. The absolute maximum highest percentage of women of childbearing age who have had an abortion would be the statistic assuming that all women alive today had. Therefore, the MAXIMUM percentage of women who have had abortions would be 3,500,000 / 63,230,088, or 5.54%. The actual number is much lower, because the 3.5 million abortions have been spread out over a number of years. Where did you get your 40% statistic from?

[sothis]

The unborn child, or fetus (the terminology doesn't change what it is), does not wish the mother ill at all.


nope, and neither does a parasite... or a viral STD like HPV.

[Nukegrrrl]

It is estimated that 40% of women have received an abortion at one point in time, although census figures would not reflect that. Often, women do not report abortions (particularly to census takers- why would they give that very personal info to a stranger and to the government?). Doctors admit that after they perform abortions, the patients will return for medical services later and in their medical histories will say the abortions were miscarriages or deny it occured altogether.
Abortiona are something that most people are not proud of and will exactly brag about or admit to having obtained.
Notorious Abe, although you say you want to debate on an intellectual level, you do not. Taking words out of everyone's post and looking it up in the dictionary does not mean your arguments have any intellectual basis. I have been patient until this point and will say no more after this. Look up dumbass in the dictionary and see if your name is listed. And when you get a uterus and bleed for 1 week out of every month, I will take your opinions on abortion seriously.

[Abe in Exile]

Nukegrrrl: You did not read my post correctly. I did not get my data on the number of abortions (3.5 million since Roe v Wade) from the Census bureau. The census has no such information available - I know, because I got the long form, and I can tell you there was no "have you had an abortion" question on there. The 3.5 million number comes from the abortion industry themselves. Actually, 3.5 million is the highest number. Other figures are more like 2.9 million or 3.1 million. But 3.5 million is the figure used by most pro-life groups. Now, it would seem to be that pro-life groups fighting against abortion would choose the highest number available for the number of abortions committed since Roe v Wade, in order to stress how many "babies had been killed" since that court decision. I took the U.S. census figures for population, NOT for abortion. Extrapolating the data yields a maximum abortion percentage of 5.54%, as stated earlier in my post, and the real percentage would be lower because the abortions have been spread out over 25 years, and because many people have had multiple abortions.

I asked you before, and I'll ask you again. Where did you get your 40% figure? What are your sources? I do wonder why, rather than reveal your sources, you chose to simply refuse to debate me. It is curious. Also, I do not believe there is anything unintellectual about looking up the meaning of a word in the dictionary to see whether or not it can be applied to a particular situation. Unintellectual discussion consists of unsubstantiated blanket statements (i.e., "all you anti abortion people are wackos") and flames (i.e., "fuck you"). You seem to define rational thought as being though which agrees with you.

Now, for the third time: Nukegrrrl, what is your source for the so-called stastic that 40% of all women of childbearing age have had an abortion?

Please answer with something other than a simple restating of the tired old rhetoric "you are a male, you can't have an opinion."

I await your (and Roddimus's) response.

[trancendental*destiny]

abe your my friend and i luv ya...but let me say it....your far too opinionated....a little respect is in order :)

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by Nukegrrrl:
<STRONG>In essence there is no need to ban or control 3rd trimester abortions. They are few and far between. Only four one-hundredths of one percent of legal abortions are performed during the 3rd trimester.</STRONG>

well, if the statistic stated here that there have been 3.5 million abortions, and third-timester makes up .04%, that's still 140,000 nearly full-term BABIES having their brains sucked out and their skulls collapsed, and then pulled through the vaginal canal (as if it were a live birth). anyone who think a procedure like this is acceptable is fucking masochistic.

notoriusable...sorry, dude, but no dice. im sorry if i htought you didnt read my whole post, but im not going to agree with you about the whole "all abortions are evil all must be banned even as a last ditch effort." tahts bull...it really is...because i know if you were a woman and some guy FORCED his penis into your vagina, reamed the fuck out of you, beat your ass up, and got you pregnant, you would resent the thing growing inside you and you would NOT appreciate a bunch of anti-abortionist im-always-right-you-are-always-wrong telling you that you must lend your body to a product of violence and hate. sorry.

as for the person who said abortion is cheaper in the long run since it is a one-time cost, as opposed to years of birth control, that is wrong. its not like, if you never use protection, that you will get pregnant once, have a $350 abortion, and never worry about it again. you could get pregnant twice a year for all you know, and i think after a few years that would cost a LOT more than simple prevention.

i know i sound like im contradicting myself, but this is becuase i think abortions re acceptable only for the fisrt trimester, and shouldnt be used as birth control (as i know plenty of selfish girls have..."i can jsut have an abortion, why should i worry about blah blah blha...").

anywyas, theres a really interessting website that has a hit list with every abortion doctor's name in the country, complete with who has been injured and who has actually been killed. its sick...

[Lu$HuZ]

thanx Cheeky Lil Monkey for the fresh opinion on prostitution. She probably represents a minority (making six figures) but it's on the right track of thinking.

I'm not even going to touch the abortion thing!

Public apology to Yungrii and Athena, sorry for the name calling, it was uncalled for. Just got a little heated, that's all.

Oh and Athena, no, people don't feel sorry for you because you have a "normal" job, why would they? But I don't know about most prostitutes "choosing" their work...that is another long discussion all together, I'm doing some research as to what makes a person who doesn't function within the confines of society right now...if anyone wants info, email me.

[AthenA]

Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of choice. I think many girls end up becoming a prostitute due to unsavory or unfair conditions, but there's ALWAYS a choice...And becoming a call girl isn't a bad one. Anyway, thanks for the apology, I never held it against you... ;)

[Cedwyn]

Hey Angelstar - I think you meant "sadistic," not "masochistic."

But hey, they go together like pb & j! ;)

[AthenA]

because i know if you were a woman and some guy FORCED his penis into your vagina, reamed the fuck out of you, beat your ass up, and got you pregnant, you would resent the thing growing inside you and you would NOT appreciate a bunch of anti-abortionist im-always-right-you-are-always-wrong telling you that you must lend your body to a product of violence and hate. sorry.

Werd! I don't think anyone could have said it better. Why don't guys seem to take this into consideration? Although I've never been raped, just seeing it in a movie makes me cringe, and the thought can ruin my whole night. When a female has undergone such severe emotional devistation, considering whether or not abortion is the right thing to do probably doesn't cross many minds. I can honestly say that if I became pregnant after such an incident, there wouldn't be a doubt in my mind about whether or not abortion was the thing to do. But I don't suppose many guys could understand that, either. This whole thing about a guy being against abortion is silly. I can't think of something a guy can do that would be impossible for me to, but if there is such a thing, I wouldn't pass judgement. If you can't even comprehend the situation of pregnancy, how can you have such a strong opinion? I just don't get it...
:confused:

[Kosmicdog]

http://www.javina.com/JJ3/faq.html

[Sparklecheek]

Yo! That site that K-dawg posted is really good! I found myself being sucked into it for the better part of my afternoon! It is an online journal and FAQ by an extremely eloquent ex-prostitute. Check it out.

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by Cedwyn:
<STRONG>Hey Angelstar - I think you meant "sadistic," not "masochistic."

But hey, they go together like pb & j! ;)</STRONG>

oooooops, my bad! lol!

yuck, thatd be kinda gross if someone used that as a masochistic, um ill stop now....damn, i didnt even think twice about using taht word, damn i feel silly now ;)

[evilarchangel68]

i had this really confusing dream last night, and one of the parts of it was watching a conception, and for some reason, as soon as it became fertilized it formed a heartbeat and i remember thinking, "wow, that guy was right, it really is a human being right from conception."

i think that all this talk of when life starts in this post is getting to me. AAAARGGGGHHH!

[_countess bathory_]

Life:
1)The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
2)The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
3)The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence
4) The interval of time between one's birth and the present:

I think the latter is applied best here (although they all apply quite well.. eh?).
Distinguishing an unborn fetus as 'life' is taking the word completely out of context. The argument of a fetus being life is for those with little to no scientific background / appreciation.
If the term 'life' were to be streched to the dramatic degree that pro 'life' advocates insist... we would not be eating... anything.
Danke
-liz

[186k\sec]

why do pro-lifers demand everyone to live up to their expectations of morality.?

where is the respect? i respect everyones right to make personal decisions for themselves without judgement, including decisions about reproduction. im pro-choice, & pro-personal responsibility &gt; individuals who are not physically encumbered by a pregnancey decision, ought to express their greivances as opinion &gt; because that is all they are....

in the end, women should have the final say, and those who insist government should criminalize abortion - should be inseminated.

[Abe in Exile]

186/k: Women can do whatever they want with their bodies. It's not place to judge them on it, and that's why I support the legalization of prostitution even though I vehemently believe it is morally wrong. HOWEVER, as I have said before, abortion affects two people - the mother and the child.

Nukegrrrl: I get the feeling that I'm never going to find out where your 40% statistic came from.

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by countess bathory:
<STRONG>If the term 'life' were to be streched to the dramatic degree that pro 'life' advocates insist... we would not be eating... anything.
Danke
-liz</STRONG>

oh, werd....!

true, i am opposed to abortion in the later stages of pregnancy, but i think as long as a person is responsible enough to take care of it in an early stage then its acceptable, as well as if a woman is raped, etc...

next time i get into a discussion about the definition of life and the attributes/evils of abortion with a christian/staunch prolifer/rightwinger, im going to ask them what makes them think its ok to place humans high enough on the food chain to be able to 'kill life' such as vegetables, cows, and chickens for consumption....and NOT ok for a woman to have an abortion even if she is brutally raped or otherwise...

[Abe in Exile]

Athena: I understand the mother's viewpoint on that. I, personally, would be disgusted at the thought of something growing inside of me that was caused against my will. But in every abortion there are two people to consider - the woman and the child - and as horrible as that would be for the woman, I do not think it justifies killing the child.

Nukegrrrl: Still waiting for your sources on the 40% statistic.

[AthenA]

You don't seem to get it, though. When a girl gets raped, the thing growing inside her is not a child. It is a malignant tumor that causes constant physical and emotional pain. Besides, I suppose it all comes down to what an individual considers a child... :confused:

[AthenA]

Boy, you sure can count on the Countess to bust out with a final blow. The words "point and match" come to mind. I too looked up the definition of the words "life" and "alive" yesterday, and although every dictionary has different definitions, I came to a similar conclusion. It said (essentially) that a being not only has to be able to function independantly (which a fetus cannot), but in the context of human life, must be able to appreciate it's position. I suppose that would suggest that people hooked up to life support are not truely alive, but I'd agree with that.

[186k\sec]

abortion affects two people - the mother and the child


what child?

you mean - embryo?

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: 186k\sec ]

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by *badmouse*
i have no respect for women who abuse drugs and/or alcohol during pregnancy.
there is simply no excuse for fucking around with someone else's life like that.

werd. if you decide to keep your baby, for gods sake take care of it. dont screw its chances for a normal life.

whats the point of saying "yay! im having a baby! and im keeping it!" when youre just going to totally screw with its gestation/development?

[evilarchangel68]

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough. A little inconvenience for you does not justify killing another human life. Have the child, and have it adopted.

....except for the fact taht women who conceive when taking unnatural amounts of hormones into their bodies to PREVENT the conception, are strongly discouraged from keeping the pregnancy. do you have any idea what happens to a fetus when those anti-pregnancy hormones are kept in the body while the fetusdevelops (such as, a girl who keeps taking the pill because she doesnt know she got pregnant, or a girl whos shot hasnt completely worn off yet)? it blocks certain hormones necessary to maintaining a normal pregnancy, and youre likely to miscarry anyways. if you dont miscarry, theres a higher chance that it will NOT be normal.

[Carley]

As for the .000000001% of people who still end up pregnant after depo and pills and stuff, well, tough. A little inconvenience for you does not justify killing another human life. Have the child, and have it adopted.

1)Werd angelstar...

2)and on a side note it is pertinent that people understand *several* prescription medications *advise*, and further, most doctors, prescribing such medications, *require* women to take birth control while under their care. *Several* prescription drugs are known to cause horrible side effects themselves, and as a precautionary measure, birth control is strictly advised... if a women *were* to get pregnant, while not only taking birth control, but another medication along with it, it would be *responsible* to *CEASE* such a pregnancy.

[evilarchangel68]

About 80% of anti-abortion activists are male.

disgusting.

im sorry, but the ONLY time when a womans body is a mans business is when its his potential child.

otherwise, stay the fuck out of our lives.

ex-pres bush's wife said something a long time ago that i think rings very true, something to the effect of taht these are very private issues and shouldnt be dealt with in a political or public way.

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by Carley
and on a side note it is pertinent that people understand *several* prescription medications *advise*, and further, most doctors, prescribing such medications, *require* women to take birth control while under their care. *Several* prescription drugs are known to cause horrible side effects themselves, and as a precautionary measure, birth control is strictly advised... if a women *were* to get pregnant, while not only taking birth control, but another medication along with it, it would be *responsible* to commence such a pregnancy.

Ummm, what? "Commence" the pregnancy? I do hope you aren't, say, encouraging young women who do their best to be responsible and sexually active and who happen to be taking Accutane for instance--a drug I have actually been on--to go ahead and endure the misery of an unwanted pregnancy culminating in a mentally defective and deformed infant. What the hell is your average teenager going to do with their little monster baby? I know that sounds callous and cruel, but really, what? I for one certainly do not have the resources to care for such a child, nor do my parents (if they were even inclined to assist). Let the government step in? Oh, we all know how well they take care of things . . . .

I just don't get it.

[Lady Legs]

If you think your ready to have sex, then you better be ready to be a mother. If not, take the steps to not get pregnant.

I'm sick and tired of people useing abortion as their sole means of birthcontrol.

In the case (as the one above) where somebody has taken imense steps to not get pregnant, and they are one of those freaks who can get pregnant on PROPERLY USED birth control (yes it can happen... even on depo...) then it's up to them if they want to try to have their child. I for one have already learned that while I can get pregnant, I can NOT carry. I don't have a complete uterus, and I never will. So, if I get pregnant, what shall I do? Wait for the painful and emotional miscarriage? Or go thru with an abortion, something that I personally have moral delima's with?

I was faced with this in my past. I decided to have the abortion... but in the examination found that I was already carrying a stillborn, crushed to death by fluids built up in my scarred misshappen uterus. I thank GOD every day that I did not have to kill something that was still alive, as brief as it's life was going to be.

[evilarchangel68]

Originally posted by RacergirlX

What the hell is your average teenager going to do with their little monster baby? I know that sounds callous and cruel, but really, what?

as a gyno told me: if you arent ready to have a baby, you certainly arent ready to have an abnormal one.

[evilarchangel68]

that is incredibly sad, ladylegs :(

[Carley]

NO!! Not commence!!!! CEASE!!! Wow... what a truely bizzare slip of the pen.

Thnx for pointing that out.

*edits post*

[sonic::bionic]

Yea, so I talked to various law-enforcement officials as well as lawyers about a plan I hatched to make money. We were going to set up a "production company" where we provided the equipment, sets, actresses, and actors (if wanted) for a series of 30-minute pornographic amateur movies. If a man came in and wanted a movie produced, he could star in it himself with his choice of actress. He got a copy of the video, he got to fuck the actress, we got a copy of the video, and we would sell amateur video tapes. We'd have been making money on both ends of the deal. What it boils down to is legalized prostitution, but because it was being filmed, it was legally recognized as "pornography". Fuck, I've got some good ideas sometimes. Anybody in PDX want to start this up with me?

[<NoNameDJ>]

Abe you're the one who's proud about putting pedestrians in mortal danger, hell you hit a girl then proceed to BRAG about it on this forum. So tell me, how can you say you appreciate life when you just want to run it over.

[<NoNameDJ>]

And another thing NotoriousAbe, would you have us go back to the days of back alley coat hanger abortions? Or are you just against the ACT?
WOULD YOU MAKE IT AGAINST THE LAW AGAIN?
If the awnser is yes, then you have no idea what reality is, reality is women DYING from illegal abortions.

What do you have to say to that?

[RiLeEiSwHiTe]

Im all for abortion. Im not going to say my views cause i know a lot of people dont think like me, dont agree with my views, and probably think im sick cause of it. I have nothing against people who are against it, i just hope they dont run the country while im still here.
But i have a question though. I dont have a side for this, i dont really know and im not trying to stir up an arguement. Ok so we have a birthday, the day we were born and we've been alive since then and blah blah blah you are so and so many years old. But those years dont include the 9 months in the mothers stomach. BUT then people say that abortion is murder... but day to day we never consider those in how long we have lived.... i dont know. So we werent living then but when it comes down to abortion, all of a sudden we ARE living then. It works out in my head i just cant ask it right. Just wondering though cause no one has given me an answer.
Make up your mind if were living then or not cause if we are, i wanna add those onto my age so im THAT much older and closer to being 21.
CarLeeN:confused: :confused:

[DJ Rawkus]

Originally posted by <NoNameDJ>
And another thing NotoriousAbe, would you have us go back to the days of back alley coat hanger abortions? Or are you just against the ACT?
WOULD YOU MAKE IT AGAINST THE LAW AGAIN?
If the awnser is yes, then you have no idea what reality is, reality is women DYING from illegal abortions.

What do you have to say to that? i'm neutral and all...but that's a really weak poker hand you've got there. Back alley abortions are rhetoric, my friend, and nothing more. If you're going to approve of something, try doing it successfully (read: intelligently) next time.

[Kosmicdog]

Originally posted by sonic::bionic
Anybody in PDX want to start this up with me?

Shit I don't really like you, but that is a great idea!! I'd be so down to become a pornographer. My mom would be proud. I also know lots of barely legal sluts that would be down for getting legally pimped out.

Sondr.