Racism vs Nationality bashing

[pizzazz]

I know that there are a lot of kids on here who are very much against the thought of bashing someone because of their race, religion, sexual preference, etc. I mean, joke or not, it is still offensive to lot of people when they are discriminated against for the pleasure of others. Agreed? right. So then, why is this any different when it comes to nationalities? I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong, that the US and Canada are the only two countries that are considered a melting pot and multi-cultural, making it near impossible to make a racist joke in reference to a Canadian or American. Wouldn't the bashing of either of these countries on one another be the equivalent of a racist comment? If a black guy uses the 'n' word it's ok, but if a man of any other race does, it's considered racist and offensive. Same thing here, i believe. If you would like to share your views on the topic please do so here, as i am interested in what you have to say.

*NOTE: this post is intended for personal opinions and not meant to sponsor any comments made with offensive intentions. Any such comments are hereby null and void.

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Pizzazz ]

[The Ancient Princess]

I don't think there's a difference. People make racist comments because they think they are better than that race... or nationality even. That may be presumptuous clumping those together... but yea, I think discriminating based on either color of someone's skin or thier nationality is the same when it comes to a racist comment.

[Kosmicdog]

No matter where you stand on the planet you are the same person. Skid marks and all.

[DJ Rawkus]

i'm a bit confused as to how you came to the conclusion that racism and country bashing go hand in hand. You can't change skin color, but you can change location of residence. Correct me if this seems simplistic. :confused:

[FUZZY WUZZIE]

I'm not a American. I'm a damn proud WOP!!!!!! But my parents had to move her why I don't know.Probaly to run away from the Italian Mob.....

[The Ancient Princess]

aah but you can change your skin color, look at michael jackson j/k ;) but anyway, u can't change the country that you're from though. you could say that all germans are nazis, but that would mean just people from germany, not the people visiting there or something like that.

but like i said, i could be presumptuous putting them together, so i could have been wrong... My thoughts are always in progress, but never complete :)

[pizzazz]

yes, but you can't erase your nationality. You can also go from gay to straight to bi to female/male. But discriminatory comments are still offensive. When someone says, for example, Canadians/Americans are conceited assholes and useless without us, the canadian(s)/american(s) may be offended. Call me sensitive or etchy, but i really don't appreciate such comments. Generalizing a country as a whole and deciding to dislike it because of some unknown 'tradition' is offensive. Or maybe i feel like people are beating a dead horse, cuz i've had to listen to comments like that for the 8yrs that i've lived here. And there actually are ignorant people who think that way. They just don't know any better.

[FUZZY WUZZIE]

Originally posted by Kosmicdog:
<STRONG>No matter where you stand on the planet you are the same person. Skid marks and all.</STRONG>

Stop going through my laundry!! Damn it!

[evilarchangel68]

has this anything to do with the 'DAMN CANADIANS!' thread that just got locked?

for me anyways, and my perrsonal experience, i do my best not to judge an entire community/country/race/whatever based on an experience with a single individual. like, there have been black people i dont get along with but i dont hate black people. there are white people i dont get along with but i dont hate all white poeple either. except wannabee paper-white-but-wants-to-be-black thugs...theyre jsut about all the same.

as far as canadians go, vancouver at least, i believe its a beautiful city but i cant say much for the character for many people i met there. also...in another threaad, someone said canada is so much nicer, cleaner, and greater than america, which is bullshit...all i can say is, how many american men say "oooh, those freaky canadian girls, hmm..." and how many canadians say "oooh, those freaky american girls, hmm...". the ratio is very very many to very very few. they have their problems jsut like us, and to say they are wihtout a doubt the better of our two countries is BS.

anyways, i think the constant bashing between our two countries pretty much isnt going to go away. we have different senses of humor and different overall attitudes about things. so as long as theyre humor revolves aroud us supposedly being stupid, lazy, all white trash, unorganized, messy, idiotic lil porch monkeys runnin around, our humor will render think them as uptight, backwards, wierd, donut-eatin, hockey-stick humpin beer-swilling wusses. none of these are my personal opinions. im jsut saying...

[The Ancient Princess]

I agree... comments like that piss me off too. saying that all americans are uneducated and we don't know anything about the rest of the world or canadians will bitch that most of us don't know the names of all of the provinces, and because of that, we're all stupid. I'm not *that* patriotic, but i will defend my country in an argument especially if the comments are rediculous... but most of the time u can't sway those people's opinions anyway. They'll look at what's in the news, whatever happens to reach thier country i guess, and it seems like all they see is school shootings, how bad our education system is or the big one in the past, the monica/clinton thing. But, i'm sure we do the same thing, especially about stuff in the middle east... things like the gulf war and saddam.. yeah we aren't gonna have that great of a picture of it over there.. umm.. I'm not sure what else to say about this right now, i've kind of lost my train of thought :P

[Lady Legs]

As a duel citizen to Canada and the USA, I am probably one of the first people you will ever see take offense to rude jokes about Canadians. If you do a search, you will see that over the last year or so there have been several threads that really follow along this same topic, but this one is a little bit different so thats not me saying "lock this thread."

[BBKahuna]

Originally posted by Pizzazz:
<STRONG>If a black guy uses the 'n' word it's ok, but if a man of any other race does, it's considered racist and offensive.[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Pizzazz ]</STRONG>

Umm... this is a common misconception that REALLY needs to be cleared up. I am a black guy, (well mixed b/w anyhow) I personally NEVER use that word because it has its roots in a racist, bigoted time, and I'd rather not link myself to it. However, I DO believe that everything said should be taken in context. When two black guys great each other and say "Sup my nigga" that's a completely different thing than a white guy looking at a black guy and saying "fuck you nigger".... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!

I have had plenty of white, black, mexican and other races say "Sup my nigga" or something along those lines in a friendly tone. I am not offended by being greeted this way no matter what the race of the person, but I'd prefer they just said "Sup Jesse" instead.

I think its idiotic people even complain about this issue anyhow and why they would want to say that word without being considered bigoted anyhow, since its just a reminder of how oppressing you once were. Since Americans are so eager to tell you how much we've "progressed" since then and how "open-minded" they like to consider themselves now (although realistically things haven't changed a whole lot on a social level). It reminds me a lot of people who try to tell me that when they say something's "gay" that its not an attack on homosexuality....

Sorry guys, in both cases you're full of it,

Later,
BBKahuna

[Kosmicdog]

Everytime you post I like you more and more Jesse.

[pizzazz]

It reminds me a lot of people who try to tell me that when they say something's "gay" that its not an attack on homosexuality....

Sorry guys, in both cases you're full of it,

One of my biggest pet-peeves is when people say that. But yeah, i can see where you're coming from.

LadyLegs: just curious, but how long did it take you to obtain a dual citizenship? The system is so terribly slow...

[smurfingurl]

wUrd bbkahuna! :D

[Sparklecheek]

Everytime you post I like you more and more Jesse.

Yeah, me too! I am quite a fan.

Hey Sondr, we should have him over for tea and crumpets someday. :)

[RacergirlX]

Originally posted by BBKahuna:
<STRONG> It reminds me a lot of people who try to tell me that when they say something's "gay" that its not an attack on homosexuality....</STRONG>

Ooh ooh! Or how about when someone uses "bitch" or "pussy" and says that it's not an attack on women (unconcious or not)?!?! That's my fave!

(Yeah, I know, you've heard me say it before, but I can't help it . . . ;) )

[Ishkur]

Originally posted by Pizzazz:
<STRONG>I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong, that the US and Canada are the only two countries that are considered a melting pot and multi-cultural</STRONG>

I correct you cuz you're wrong:

America is a melting pot. When you move to American you must forsake your old culture, your old values, your old religion, your old language, and in lots of cases your old lineage, and adopt the manufacutured American one. Pledge allegiance, sing the anthem, don't burn the flag and all that junk. Being about 86% white people, you have the overwhelming numbers to enforce such a paradigm.

Canada is a MOSAIC. You are allowed to live however you want in Canada. A country that is only 40% British has to adopt this policy, for neither racial or cultural group on our country has the numbers to consider itself a majority without being ganged upon by the others. Its a nifty system of checks and balances.....culturally, that is.

Ish.

[pizzazz]

Well, i was half right. America is a melting-pot. My mom told me Canada was multi-cultural. Mosaic, eh? Thank you for clarifying this :)

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by Pizzazz:
<STRONG>I mean, joke or not, it is still offensive to lot of people when they are discriminated against for the pleasure of others. Agreed?

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Pizzazz ]</STRONG>

Agreed? NO. Discrimination implies a direct act aimed at subjugating someone, i.e.- Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice. Making jokes about differences is not discrimination.

BBKahuna--what about when a black person says something like "Did you see that nigga in the Honda cut me off?".......is that OK? Throughout history, subjugated peoples have taken the derogatory terms used by their oppressors and used them while talking to each other, in order to take away the power of the word.

Also, different words have different meaning for different people when used in different contexts. For example, if I say "Man, that shit is sooooo gay"--the fact that the term "gay" is *sometimes* associated with homosexuality doesn't even cross my mind. In the above context, "gay" means stupid, and I personally don't know anyone who says something is "gay" as a slanderous reference to homosexuals (unless they're talking about some pink shirt that has pictures of guys blowing each other all over it). GET OVER YOURSELVES. Gay also means happy. Faggot also means a small bundle of sticks. Fag, in British verncacular, is a cigarette. And, I've had PLENTY of gay friends, and most of them ragged on gay men who "acted straight"(not hid the fact they were gay, they just aren't feminine enough or something), like being straight is a bad thing. Are we starting to understand how our views are based on our realities?

And, like I've said before--you people have no problem calling people stupid, or morons. You can change your intelligence about as easy as you can change your skin color.

I'm white, I don't get pissed off when black comedians make fun of white people. It's fucking funny, why should I be offended? Even if they mean it, why should I care what they think? Now, if someone was encouraging violence or discrimination against a group of people, I would understand getting pissed off. But jokes are jokes, you will never stop them as long as people are different. At least I can laugh at peoples differences while still respecting said differences. Sorry if you can't. FLAME AWAY.

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: Ebeneezer (Eezer) Goode ]

[DJ Rawkus]

Time for ME to jump in kids.

I have had 2 personal experiences with dark folk givin me shit for sayin' nigga. The first was at work. All i said was "that nigga Ca-raaaaazy!!" cuz this dood was all actin a fool and being funny for us. Needless to say, time stopped and i almost got fired. i was one of two whites at the scene, and the other guy lectured me later on 'proper white conduct', to which i ignored because he was afraid he'd lose his job too..it was utter BS to try and fire me for something i said that was said alot by blacks themselves!! The second time, i was drunk, having a lil pissing match with this dood that wouldnt take no for an answer, and it came to me saying "LOOK NIGGERBOY, THIS IS HOW IT IS...YOU AND YOUR DAMN YARD APES ARE GOING TO LEAVE NOW...etc etc etc" and with that, the shit hit tha fan and the rest is history. The second time was my fault, regardless of me being drunk. I deserved to get every kick in the stomach i got and since then have not said nigger. Nigga ok. Nigger no good. I'm not racist, but i've seen alot of hypocrisy from both sides of the fence, and to be honest..why IS there a fence? Maybe for the same reason the Dixie Flag still flies in some parts of the country...

[Ken Ja]

When are you humans going to realize that WORD ONLY HAVE POWER, IF WE GIVE THEM POWER! This year is 2001. We are not our fathers or fore fathers. We are an entirely NEW GENERATION. In order to make POSITIVE STEPS toward THIS PLANETS future, we must NOT drudge up the mistakes of THIS PLANET'S PAST!!!! This is our time...Soon our parents will be gone. Will YOU still allow them to govern over you in their graves? When they gave you life, that life came with a mind, a mind that is YOURS AND YOURS ALONE! Fill it with positivity. In our culture, there is nothing positive energy, why would any of you humans want to taint that with yesterday's negitivity? Use your mind... We are free to think and feel as we please! As long as we are thinking pure and true, without the mistakes of the past(no matter what form they may take), WE WILL LIVE FOREVER. Those of you who still feel pain from yesterday's negitivity, need to gain strength with in. You must become stronger in order to move forward with the rest of us. WORK ON THAT!!!

[sonic::bionic]

Shit, I just saw the comedian David Cross on HBO performing in Seattle. He was making fun of terminally ill kids, he said things like "piss on Jews", he made fun of Christians and went on and on with all kinds of supposedly offensive humor. He even made fun of Steven Hawking being a paraplegic and him getting a prostitute. The jokes aren't what surprised me. What surprised me is that all the tight-assed NW people in the audience actually laughed at his jokes. But by the looks of the audience, they were actually grown ups who live in the real world and weren't just some college kids who are learning something for the first time in their lives and think they can change the world, when they haven't even figured out how the world works yet. People who are easily offended offend me. I know that most of you are probably just chock FULL of youthful enthusiasm, but you really should concentrate on fighting things that need to be fought. Fighting jokes is a waste of your time. Fight for something that matters, like people saying "all niggers should be hung by a rope" or "jews are dirty" or "I'm gonna blow up a church tomorrow".

[Ken Ja]

KEN JA INTERVENTION----------

Do any of the human reading this post know what the definition of the word "NIGGER"?

DEFINITION-NIGGER---" A LAZY OR SHIFTLESS PERSON."

So, by definition, ANYONE can be a NIGGER!!!! As far as "nigga" goes, think of it as the "black word for dude"!!! ;)

[Lady Legs]

Pizzazz: My parents are both of American birth, even if they were raised in Canada. I was born in Canada. When I was in grade school my parents filed for "Born Abroad" paperwork, which basically is the American government claiming that a citizen born in another country is of their nationality regardless of where the actually birth took place. The Canadian government on the other hand had already given me citizenship because I was born in their borders.

Three weeks after filing for the Born Abroad birth certificate, I was interviewed twice in Vancouver B.C. (whats the point in asking a 8 or 9 year old if they have any plans on being disloyal to their nation anyhow?) and then I was quickly handed the paperwork for my duel citizenship.

Wasn't hard for me at all. Shortly after I moved to the states.

[BBKahuna]

I thought I'd respond to a couple of interesting points you brought up Ebeneezer:

Originally posted by Ebeneezer (Eezer) Goode:
<STRONG>BBKahuna--what about when a black person says something like "Did you see that nigga in the Honda cut me off?".......is that OK? Throughout history, subjugated peoples have taken the derogatory terms used by their oppressors and used them while talking to each other, in order to take away the power of the word. </STRONG>

As I said before, I believe that words spoken should be taken in context, as such the example you gave where the word was used in a deragatory fashion would definitely make me uncomfortable. Also, I don't think taking power away from the word is a good thing at all! Racial division is a VERY powerful concept, and it and its time should be remembered as such rather than desensitized and blown off... would you want that done with the holocaust too?

<STRONG>
Also, different words have different meaning for different people when used in different contexts. For example, if I say "Man, that shit is sooooo gay"--the fact that the term "gay" is *sometimes* associated with homosexuality doesn't even cross my mind. In the above context, "gay" means stupid, and I personally don't know anyone who says something is "gay" as a slanderous reference to homosexuals (unless they're talking about some pink shirt that has pictures of guys blowing each other all over it). </STRONG>

Well, maybe I could agree with you if the only word that people used in a negative manner that also had homosexual conotations was gay....

However, I personally have heard "That guy is such a fucking faggot" "That's completely homosexual" and also things like "80's movies are so homoerotic". Unlike the situation with black people saying nigga, there is just a SLEW of anti-gay terms out of there, and it all makes out homosexuality as something to be ashamed of/embarrassed of/something to be avoided. You don't hear black people saying "sup jungle bunny" or "sup coon" as well....

<STRONG>
GET OVER YOURSELVES. Gay also means happy. Faggot also means a small bundle of sticks. Fag, in British verncacular, is a cigarette.
</STRONG>

and bastard means someone without a father, and ass means a donkey, that doesn't matter though, because that is NOT what is meant in the context of when the word gets used. No one says "You are SO gay!" and means "boy you look happy" lol

<STRONG>
And, I've had PLENTY of gay friends, and most of them ragged on gay men who "acted straight"(not hid the fact they were gay, they just aren't feminine enough or something), like being straight is a bad thing. </STRONG>

I'm sorry, but you have some shallow, snobby friends then. I KNOW of these people, I've certainly met a few, and they remind me quite a bit of my old roomates who bitched about "flamer" gay behaviour...

<STRONG>
And, like I've said before--you people have no problem calling people stupid, or morons. You can change your intelligence about as easy as you can change your skin color.
</STRONG>

But the thing is, saying an idea is stupid or someone is being stupid, links actual criticism (a lack of intelligence) to that idea or person. Saying someone is a faggot links a percieved criticism (homosexuality) to an idea or person and then implies that its that link is negative.

<STRONG>
Now, if someone was encouraging violence or discrimination against a group of people, I would understand getting pissed off. But jokes are jokes, you will never stop them as long as people are different. At least I can laugh at peoples differences while still respecting said differences. Sorry if you can't. </STRONG>

I can laugh at people's differences too, and I ALSO think comedians that point them out are amusing because they point out the most EXTREME examples, or because they present material that I can relate too a lot, and its almost like they read my mind (for example Dave Chapelle talking about racial discrimination among police officers and why black people don't like to call in even when crimes happen to them, like their house gets broken in too, because they don't want to deal with the police.)

However, while I can laugh at our differences, it doesn't mean that I am willing to use that difference as a means to debase someone...

<STRONG>
FLAME AWAY.
</STRONG>

Flaming is idiotic but having a conversation which is what we're doing now, is interesting. I enjoy reading and responding to your points...

Later,
BBKahuna

[BBKahuna]

Originally posted by Princess Tam Tam:
<STRONG>Ooh ooh! Or how about when someone uses "bitch" or "pussy" and says that it's not an attack on women (unconcious or not)?!?! That's my fave! </STRONG>

How about when someone is "girlie" or "throws like a girl" or phrases like "It takes balls to do that" in reference to courage. God, don't even get me started on how bad I feel women have it. All the women I know are objectified, discriminated against, patronized, and stereotyped on a daily basis, and to make matters worse, it seems like most of them have gotten to the point where they've just accepted it and become desensitized to it, because society has become just so saturated with it.

Later,
BBKahuna

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by BBKahuna:I'm sorry, but you have some shallow, snobby friends then. I KNOW of these people, I've certainly met a few, and they remind me quite a bit of my old roomates who bitched about "flamer" gay behaviour...

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Why should we feel it's our responsibility to stand up for any group of people who behave the same way we do. A form of discrimination is allowing one group of people to do something while not allowing another to do the same (i.e., blacks calling each other nigga, gays calling each other fag, etc., while people outside those groups cannot).

As far as the "stupid" thing goes.....if you say to someone "you're stupid" that implies a mental deficiency, i.e-HANDICAP. Saying someone has said something stupid is therefore a stab at people who can't help the way they are (being stupid), and it's much the same as saying someone did something gay. Calling someone ignorant is different, because that just implies lack of knowledge, but having the ability to learn. Stupidity implies the inabiltiy to learn. Stupidity IS a mental handicap, just like being retarded (which people also use in a derogatory manner with no social repercussions).

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by BBKahuna:
<STRONG>"It takes balls to do that" in reference to courage. </STRONG>

This has to do with the fact that BALLS produce large quantities of testosterone, something women don't have much of. Testosterone leads to aggressive behavior, and risk-taking (both of these behaviors are sometimes viewed as courage). It has nothing do with discrimination, it has to do with biology. It'd be like me saying "My new sheets are as soft as a woman's skin" and someone getting pissed at me for saying it. It's not MY fault estrogen causes women's skin to be softer than men's.

[BBKahuna]

My old roomates were straight, not gay ebeenezer, and there are plenty of other examples along the "It takes balls" lines that bother me that don't have a biological explanation like when someone says "That's a man's job" or crap like that... anyhow I doubt many people are consciencly thinking about the aggressive, risk-taking behaviour as a result of testosterone when saying "That takes balls"....

Later,
BBKahuna

[BBKahuna]

And WHY in the world would you have any desire to call a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger?

I don't understand what compells people to feel that they should be able to call someone those names.... its like me saying "DAMN! That's so unfair I can't walk around calling women bitches, when they call themselves it on occasion"

[sonic::bionic]

Dude, saying "That's a man's job" and saying it "Takes balls" are two different things. Like saying "niggers are dirty" and "'sup, nigga?" are two different things. Context is everything. And it still pisses me off when women get upset about calling someone a bitch or a pussy, and then 10 minutes later you hear her call someone a dog or a dick.

[Godlike]

i remember one of the early james bond movies.. James says something to the effect of "stay out dear, man talk"


I have dual citizen ship like 'Legs, but i take a slightly different approach to it. I side with which of the two countries (in this case England and the USA) is acting less like a retard. I'm kinda stuck in the middle right now though. :(


They are only words.. you put the meaning into it yourself.. :)

[sonic::bionic]

Originally posted by Godlike:
<STRONG>They are only words.. you put the meaning into it yourself.. :)</STRONG>

Thank you.

[Lady Legs]

I have dual citizen ship like 'Legs, but i take a slightly different approach to it. I side with which of the two countries (in this case England and the USA) is acting less like a retard. I'm kinda stuck in the middle right now though.

Dave.... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Now... I usually try really hard not to bash either government... but it takes a lot of control to not go apeshit over our American government.

As a whole, I find myself rarely embarassed by the Canadian government... Although every now and then I want to go blow up Quebec, not because of French Canadians, hello, I am decended from that national group. I just think that Quebec will never survive without the rest of the countries economical support. In the meantime they are making fools of themselves.