Man Arrested for Wearing Peace T-Shirt [Archive]

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 02:27 AM

By DAMITA CHAMBERS
Associated Press Writer

March 5, 2003, 6:15 AM EST

ALBANY, N.Y. -- A man was charged with trespassing in a mall after he refused to take off a T-shirt that said "Peace on Earth" and "Give peace a chance."

Mall security approached Stephen Downs, 61, and his 31-year-old son, Roger, on Monday night after they were spotted wearing the T-shirts at Crossgates Mall in a suburb of Albany, the men said.

The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused.

The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son took his T-shirt off, but the father refused.

"'I said, `All right then, arrest me if you have to,'" Downs said. "So that's what they did. They put the handcuffs on and took me away."

Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked.

Police Chief James Murley said his officers were just responding to a complaint by mall security.

"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said.

A mall spokeswoman did not return calls Tuesday seeking comment.

Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests.

Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-mall-activists0305mar05,0,5805283.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

Friskee1

03-05-2003, 03:24 AM

Fuck all that!!!

"Peace can be found in the mind, not on the battlefield"

Oh yeah...And read my quote for further reference.

lady.don't.tek.no

03-05-2003, 04:58 AM

lame.

outoftowner

03-05-2003, 06:38 AM

Why the hell would you be upset at a shirt that simply says, "Give Peace a Chance?" Now that is just moronic. Especially since the shirt was purchased at the mall. I'm sure the mall management viewed the shirt as a threat to commerce at the mall.

Boyd Main

03-05-2003, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by outoftowner
I'm sure the mall management viewed the shirt as a threat to commerce at the mall.

Well hopefully their actions have proven a greater threat and there's some sort of boycott.

HexRei

03-05-2003, 08:59 AM

that's retarded. I hate malls.

tallcan

03-05-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by HexRei
that's retarded. I hate malls.
i too share your hate for malls.

enough is enough people.

burnt

03-05-2003, 09:16 AM

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/Northeast/03/05/offbeat.peace.arrest.reut/story.shirt.jpg

I can see how a shirt like this would piss off a mall cop.....
:rolleyes:

according to CNN, the dude's a lawyer, and Director of an agency that investigates judicial misconduct. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/05/offbeat.peace.arrest.reut/index.html)

which means the mall's pretty fucked...at least I hope.

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 09:58 AM

You can here one of the idoits being interviewed here.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wamc/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=462799

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 10:12 AM

& to think malls were/are supposive targets for terrorism..

yeah.. 'peace t-shirts' do not belong at al-queda soft targets

HexRei

03-05-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
You can here one of the idoits being interviewed here.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wamc/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=462799

why is he an "idoit" (sic)? There is no good reason that a shopping mall should care what political views he espouses and chooses to display on his clothing, and certainly no grounds to tell him to leave the mall because of it.
I'm pro invasion of Iraq, and I still think it's retarded that some fucktard mall cop decided to be a tough guy and kick someone out for having a different political opinion than him.

outoftowner

03-05-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by HexRei

There is no good reason that a shopping mall should care what political views he espouses and chooses to display on his clothing, and certainly no grounds to tell him to leave the mall because of it.

Actually, if the mall thought that somebody's clothing disturbed other patrons and was a legitimate deterrent to business as usual at the mall, it would be well within it's right to ask that person to leave.

Ex. If a person wore a KKK shirt at the mall, many people would be offended and that could in fact have an impact on mall revenue.

I just don't see how a shirt with a peace sign could offend anyone.

HexRei

03-05-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by outoftowner

Actually, if the mall thought that somebody's clothing disturbed other patrons and was a legitimate deterrent to business as usual at the mall, it would be well within it's right to ask that person to leave.

Ex. If a person wore a KKK shirt at the mall, many people would be offended and that could in fact have an impact on mall revenue.

I just don't see how a shirt with a peace sign could offend anyone.

I wasn't talking about the mall's legal rights, I was talking about practicality. And come on- how can a shirt "deter business"?

outoftowner

03-05-2003, 11:03 AM

I'm not supporting the mall's actions but I will explain how a shirt could deter business.

If someone was to wear a shirt that attracted sooo much attention at the mall, people wouldn't be buying all that crap...they would be gawking at the t-shirt instead of whipping out their mastercards.

Malls were built so people would buy as much crap as humanly possible inside the mall. The mall doesn't care if you support war or peace...the mall wants everybody's money. If you were the mall, would you endanger your relationship with Macy's just so two guys can wear a peace sign?

That is capitalism.

Roddimus

03-05-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
You can here one of the idoits being interviewed here.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wamc/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=462799
WTF Jason???
The guy is an idiot for wearing a peace sign?
You can disagree with his opinions on Iraq all you want, but it wasn't like the t-shirt was offensive or inflammatory.
It was a perfectly innocuous symbol. It's not like he was wearing a shirt that equated Bush with terrorists or slandered the US in any way. It's just a fucking peace sign.
People have been wearing peace signs for years. Why is it now suddenly such a touchy issue?
While the mall might have been within their legal rights, their actions are hardly justifiable in any moral or ethical sense.

djowns

03-05-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Friskee1
Fuck all that!!!

"Peace can be found in the mind, not on the battlefield"

Oh yeah...And read my quote for further reference.

Amen to your fucking signature!

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by HexRei

why is he an "idoit" (sic)? There is no good reason that a shopping mall should care what political views he espouses and chooses to display on his clothing, and certainly no grounds to tell him to leave the mall because of it.
I'm pro invasion of Iraq, and I still think it's retarded that some fucktard mall cop decided to be a tough guy and kick someone out for having a different political opinion than him.

Sorry Hex maybe you are taking my use of the word idiot in the wrong context. I'm speaking of the word Idiot in the true definition meaning one who is foolish. These two went to the mall to get a t-shirt created, all fine and dandy. But unlike most people who purchase clothing at a mall and take their purchase home to wear at a later time, these two guys becuase of their fanatical feverous mentality and activism found it so nessessary to put on the damn t-shirt then and there and parade around the mall like a 8 year old who's mommy just bought them a brand new pair of $119 Nike's made from some Chinese forced prison labor camp slave and puts them instantly on after the purchase and walks out the store and marches around the mall self absrobed, and cocky, and obnoxousas as if they are being cool or something. That's what I find foolish or idiotic. I don't find these guys innocently going to the mall to create t-shirts with "no war in iraq" and "let inspections work" text across them, they put them on purposley after they purchased them to parade around the mall protesting as if such a idioitic idea does anything to stop the war. The mall is private property and the mall security simply asked if the two individuals could kindly take the shirt off and keep it to themselves for the sake of the surounding public for common decency. They didn't want to do that, the mall security than asked either you take the t-shirts off and go about your business or please leave the mall. They insisted to be cocky and refuse to do either, there for they were removed becuase they did not adhere to the wishes of the mall in a pleasantly fashion. In December in the very same mall over 20 people did the same thing and were asked to leave, and logic tells me these two individuals wanted to insist on doing the same thing. Except they were not willing to leave like the others they insisted on being jerks about it.

In the light of this story going public and the contraversey it now has created, I'd say the mall completley over reacted but that is hindsight on my behalf. Becuase rationally in the event of this happening there was no intention on arresting anyone, these two individuals arrogance is what lead to the mall having to resort to having a police officer get involved. My whole take on it and why I think these two are arrogant is becuase they felt the need to put on the damn t-shirt then and there, I think if they had such a t-shirt and was worn before entering the mall and then the mall security got on their ass I would of had a little more sympothy for these two individuals but since they were merley opportunists instead I don't and I think they were being idiots. Ohh well now there loving all the media blitz and capitalizing on it all. Good for them. [lafs]

The incident with the father and son occurred shortly after 7 p.m. in the food court. They said they were asked by two security guards to take off their T-shirts, leave or be arrested.

"I don't think we have to take off the T-shirts," said Steve Downs

The guards returned with a Guilderland police officer and, "It was the same routine all over again," the father said. "I said 'OK, arrest me.' "

The cop talked to him for an hour after he was handcuffed, Downs said, trying to get him to drop the whole thing and take the shirt off.

"I didn't want to do that," Downs said. "They were just doing their duty. They were trying to be very peaceful. They didn't want any confrontation."

That's why I think they were idiots, I don't think it was that nessessary to be so arrogant in making such a political statement where one would want to be arrested over, it's stupid. Reminds me of a sit in. [sigh]

-Jason

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Roddimus

WTF Jason???
The guy is an idiot for wearing a peace sign?
You can disagree with his opinions on Iraq all you want, but it wasn't like the t-shirt was offensive or inflammatory.
It was a perfectly innocuous symbol. It's not like he was wearing a shirt that equated Bush with terrorists or slandered the US in any way. It's just a fucking peace sign.
People have been wearing peace signs for years. Why is it now suddenly such a touchy issue?
While the mall might have been within their legal rights, their actions are hardly justifiable in any moral or ethical sense.

No not for just wearing the t-shirt, as I explained above in the last post. I don't find the t-shirt offensive in fact I'd be someone who would point it out to my girlfriend so we can laf at them. Ohh wait I never goto the mall, the mall fucking sucks! I never said the mall was morally or ethically right. I think they overeacted in hindsight. These were just two guys wanting to get a rise out of making a political statement, unfortunatley the mall felt they should do their shit else where. [shrugs]

-Jason

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 11:53 AM

I knew someone would post this on here, and I knew that the whole story wouldn't be told (as usual).

THE MAN WAS NOT ARRESTED FOR REFUSING TO REMOVE HIS SHIRT.

Here's the rest of the story:

************

A statement released by the mall painted a different picture of what happened.

"Crossgates Mall security received a complaint regarding two individuals disrupting customers. The individuals were approached by security because of their actions and interference with other shoppers," the statement read.

"Their behavior, coupled with their clothing to express to others their personal views on world affairs, were disruptive of customers."

Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked.

Police Chief James Murley said his officers were just responding to a complaint by mall security.

"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said.

The mall said that as a private property, it has the court-approved right "to restrict actions and behaviors deemed inconsistent with its intended purpose."

Crossgates Mall's rules "strictly prohibit loitering, disorderly or disruptive conduct, harassment, offensive language, fighting or any illegal activity," the statement read. "The Mall will not tolerate violations of these regulations. In this instance, mall management, given the information provided to them, determined the customers in question were violating mall policy."

**************

These jack ass political activists were harassing customers and when asked to stop, they refused.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80292,00.html

P.S. Hey Zupan, I agree- those guys are fucking idiots.

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 12:01 PM

PLASTFORM-

The man was NOT arrested for wearing a t-shirt that people found offensive.

Jesus Christ.

Ishkur

03-05-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
These two went to the mall to get a t-shirt created, all fine and dandy. But unlike most people who purchase clothing at a mall and take their purchase home to wear at a later time, these two guys becuase of their fanatical feverous mentality and activism found it so nessessary to put on the damn t-shirt then and there and parade around the mall like a 8 year old who's mommy just bought them a brand new pair of $119 Nike's made from some Chinese forced prison labor camp slave and puts them instantly on after the purchase and walks out the store and marches around the mall self absrobed, and cocky, and obnoxousas as if they are being cool or something.

Where did you get all that from? Were you there?

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 12:19 PM

Hey Plastform-

Read the rest of the article. The reason they were kicked out was because they were bothering customers. Period. This wasn't a political statement by the mall's owner(s), it was a result of other customers complaining. They said that the man and his son were bothering customers. It's not like they saw these two guys walking around with anti- war t-shirts and decided to target them. Because, as we all know, that would not only be bad for business, it would be bad publicity.

The two IDIOT fucks had it coming, and I for one am thrilled that the dood was arrested, right in front of his hippy kid no less.

Truly awesome. :D

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 12:40 PM

Lordbafoon? That's clever plast, did you think that up all by yourself? Impressive, truly.

And your overuse of sarcasm really drives a point home! Wait, am I being sarcastic about your sarcasm?

And yes, you must be right, the whole "bothering customers" thing must be "contrived." It makes much more sense that the owner(s)/security guards would single these guys out, who were just minding their own business and spending their money, and harassed them to make a political statement because, as we know, that is SO good for business.

Yup, what were you saying again about "bafoons?"

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Ishkur

Where did you get all that from? Were you there?

[lafs out loud]

Goto http://news.google.com do a search for "Crossgates Mall".

Later

-Jason

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 12:54 PM

from the article:________________________________________
Mall security approached Stephen Downs, 61, and his 31-year-old son, Roger, on Monday night after they were spotted wearing the T-shirts at Crossgates Mall in a suburb of Albany, the men said.
The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused.

this account makes it sound like it is indeed about the t-shirts...
however, the mall's account indicates it was their behavior that was the problem .
"Their behavior, coupled with their clothing to express to others their personal views on world affairs, were disruptive of customers."

. . . if this is so, then why ask them to remove the t-shirts?! - why not just tell them to leave... why No mention of what their behavior was exactly.. I can understand asking disruptive people to leave the property - but somehow - I dont trust the * Mall Cops* on this one.. I mean really?!? - were they chasing people about?,.... yelling?....urinating on elderly women - What was it?!? I'll bet it was something along the lines of loitering....dear god!

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 12:56 PM

. . . if this is so, then why ask them to remove the t-shirts?! - why not just tell them to leave... why No mention of what their behavior was exactly.. I can understand asking disruptive people to leave the property - but somehow - I dont trust the * Mall Cops* on this one..

Yeah, well, dood's in jail, that's all that matters. :D

P.S. Focusing on the t-shirt fact makes a better story, hence better ratings, than a simple "disruptive behavior" story.

Roddimus

03-05-2003, 12:58 PM

Well Jason, if they were being disruptive, then my opinion is decidedly different.
It's just the article you posted made it seem like all they were doing was wearing the t-shirts when they got pulled aside and arrested.
If they were being confrontational, rude or abrasive to customers, then I guess I can understand why the mall would have taken issue.
Kinda reminds me vaguely of the asshole war protestors who stop traffic during rush hour just to pull off some esoteric stunt that doesn't accomplish anything or even make that poignant of a statement.
Just recently here in Oly, a few of the more radical greeners from the dorms decided to stop traffic on the main bridge connecting the west side with downtown. They stopped their car in the middle of the bridge, blocking both lanes of traffic, and then proceeded to bash their car with a sledge hammer.
WTF???
Not only does this portray the anti-war movement as a bunch of impatient jackasses, it alienates and infuriates the more moderate and level headed anti-war advocates (such as my self) who just happened to be caught in traffic at that time.

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 01:12 PM

Hey, you made fun of my name first! ('')

Oh shit! lol, sorry man, I wasn't trying to make fun of your name, honestly. My bad. ;)

You wouldn't believe the situtations I've been forced into just for wearing a "Real Men Love Satan" t-shirt. Sheesh!

See, I live to offend people, so I can empathize with that. I could even empathize with these two blokes if I believed they had been singled out because of their political views. But the article (that I quoted, anyway) clearly stated that the mall officials kicked them out for their behavior and it goes on to say something about loitering.

So, I believe, that they were *not* shopping but harassing people by vocalizing anti- war sentiments to other shoppers. I think the media put a spin on the story because they knew (rightly so, those bastards) that a headline reading, "Man arrested for wearing anti- war t-shirt in mall" would get a lot of peoples attention.

It doesn't make sense for someone to be singled (or in their case, doubled) out, especially when there are so many anti- war people out there.

You just watch, that mall is going to be absolutley flooded by people wearing anti- war shirts now, because of this article. That, and coupled with peoples' inability to read the whole thing.

Mike S

03-05-2003, 01:14 PM

That someone was actually asked to leave a mall for wearing any t-shirt (obviously offensive language excluded) and then arrested for trespassing because he wouldn't comply is so absurd it boggles the mind. -I don't fault the arresting officers on this one.. they were responding to a trespassing complaint called in by mall security-
but, why did these mall rent-a-cops think this guy needed to leave?

Its just too stupid to be the whole story.

I'd like to know what exactly the guy was doing and saying cause as is... this story doesn't pass the sniff test.

MS

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 01:17 PM

Yeah, well, dood's in jail, that's all that matters.

not at all.
what matters is: - whether his actions warranted his arrest.. from what little is described, I gather, they dont.. being arrested for refusing to remove a peace t-shirt at a mall : is a frightening turn in current events ---- very frightening to say the least. Id agree w/ Mike, something is missing... the story seems bogus.

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 01:26 PM

what matters is: - whether his actions warranted his arrest.. from what little is described, I gather, they dont.. being arrested for refusing to remove a peace t-shirt at a mall : is a frightening turn in current events ---- very frightening to say the least.

Then fear no longer! Now, I was just mentioning something about peoples' inability to read an entire article, so I reiterate:

The man was NOT arrested for refusing to take off his t-shirt, because as we all know, that is not against the law. He was arrested for refusing to leave private property. And, according to the mall officials, he was NOT asked to leave because of his t-shirt, he was asked to leave about his "behavior." What his behavior was, we don't know, because, as I already stated, that doesn't make an interesting story.

QUOTE:

"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said.

Of course, it also says:

Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests.

But that's a different story...

HexRei

03-05-2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by LordWoon
I knew someone would post this on here, and I knew that the whole story wouldn't be told (as usual).

THE MAN WAS NOT ARRESTED FOR REFUSING TO REMOVE HIS SHIRT.

Here's the rest of the story:

************

A statement released by the mall painted a different picture of what happened.

"Crossgates Mall security received a complaint regarding two individuals disrupting customers. The individuals were approached by security because of their actions and interference with other shoppers," the statement read.

"Their behavior, coupled with their clothing to express to others their personal views on world affairs, were disruptive of customers."

Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked.

Police Chief James Murley said his officers were just responding to a complaint by mall security.

"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said.

The mall said that as a private property, it has the court-approved right "to restrict actions and behaviors deemed inconsistent with its intended purpose."

Crossgates Mall's rules "strictly prohibit loitering, disorderly or disruptive conduct, harassment, offensive language, fighting or any illegal activity," the statement read. "The Mall will not tolerate violations of these regulations. In this instance, mall management, given the information provided to them, determined the customers in question were violating mall policy."

**************

These jack ass political activists were harassing customers and when asked to stop, they refused.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80292,00.html

P.S. Hey Zupan, I agree- those guys are fucking idiots.

Odd. That release from the mall itself totally contradicts the other two press reports I've read, which say:
"The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused.
The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son took his T-shirt off, but the father refused."
I understand that there are two sides to the story, but it sounds like the guard and police officer made it quite clear that he had to take the shirt off, or leave.
If in fact he was harassing customers, why would they ask him to remove the shirt? How would that solve the problem? Would that keep him from harassing people? Hardly...
And my bet is that the mall would issue some sort of "we had complaints" type of justification retroactively, even if they had acted solely on the basis of the shirt. It would look really bad for them if they didn't. And hey, iit's almost impossible to disprove in court ("we don't take down the names of everyone who complains to security") and it's their word against the "criminal's", right?

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 01:42 PM

Odd. That release from the mall itself totally contradicts the other two press reports I've read, which say:
"The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused.
The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son took his T-shirt off, but the father refused."
I understand that there are two sides to the story, but it sounds like the guard and police officer made it quite clear that he had to take the shirt off, or leave.
If in fact he was harassing customers, why would they ask him to remove the shirt? How would that solve the problem? Would that keep him from harassing people? Hardly...
And my bet is that the mall would issue some sort of "we had complaints" type of justification retroactively, even if they had acted solely on the basis of the shirt. It would look really bad for them if they didn't. And hey, iit's almost impossible to disprove in court ("we don't take down the names of everyone who complains to security") and it's their word against the "criminal's", right?

Here's a fact: You can NOT arrest someone for refusing to take off their t-shirt. As I've said before, the title in the article is giving the entire story a spin.

If indeed the mall employees were singling them out and the whole complaints about their behavior stuff is a downright lie, then yeah, that's kind've fucked up. But regardless, you still can NOT get arrested for refusing to take off a t-shirt. They got arrested because an officer of the law asked them to leave the premises and they refused.

Thus, they are idiots.

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 01:43 PM

i read the >entire< article Woon, so let me re-iterate:
what we know:
two people had peace t-shirts & were elleged to be causing a distrubance.
they were spotted, and instead of being asked to cease distrubing, they were asked to "remove the t-shirts" or "leave" - one removed the t-shirt, and the other refused. He was arrested... but it doesnt say why> but id imagine it was because he refused to leave - since it has been pointed out - that security didn't care what was on the shirts... .. .. so, back around we come to the question of why were they asked to remove the t-shirts - if their content wasnt a problem.. ? doesnt add up.. perhaps your correct in that the story has been sensationalized by playing up the 'peace t-shirt', but it was mall security that made it an issue..

Mike S

03-05-2003, 01:45 PM

Also.. its been established by the supreme court that, although they are private property, malls are public domain and certain forms of expression are protected. Obviously various forms of disturbing or offensive expression are not protected but I think a peace shirt, assuming its wording wasn't foul, would be something that anyone should be able to wear. This story is too strange. There's either a huge bit we haven't heard yet or this is one of those bad situations made worse by a combination of individuals poor judgment.

If its the latter that mall is gonna get its ass handed to it in civil court and deservedly so. If its the former the I'm gonna be more interested in who filed the original story...what did they know and leave out ..and why.

MS

Star_Dancer

03-05-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by 186k\sec

this account makes it sound like it is indeed about the t-shirts...
however, the mall's account indicates it was their behavior that was the problem .

Yeah because we all know the media would NEVER write something to make it sound like they wanted. I mean, why would they ever need to do that to sell newspapers. Even though a man being arrested for wearing a T-shirt is a much more scandalous than a man toting peace talk. But that's all beside the point... right?

HexRei

03-05-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by LordWoon
You can NOT arrest someone for refusing to take off their t-shirt.
I am fully aware of this.

If indeed the mall employees were singling them out and the whole complaints about their behavior stuff is a downright lie, then yeah, that's kind've fucked up. But regardless, you still can NOT get arrested for refusing to take off a t-shirt. They got arrested because an officer of the law asked them to leave the premises and they refused.

Thus, they are idiots. [/B]

I don't think that demonstrating and speaking out against a business who feels they have the right to discriminate against you is idiotic.
I am not anti-war, but I also don't believe that pro-peace folks should have to sit in the back of the bus or be restricted to the "peace-lovers' drinking fountains", know what i mean?
That is, assuming that these men were in fact asked to remove the shirts or leave. It seems to me that testimony from the police officer would be handy here, since he was the mediating party and should be able to confirm which story is true.

HexRei

03-05-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Star_Dancer

Yeah because we all know the media would NEVER write something to make it sound like they wanted. I mean, why would they ever need to do that to sell newspapers. Even though a man being arrested for wearing a T-shirt is a much more scandalous than a man toting peace talk. But that's all beside the point... right?

true!

and we all know that security guards never abuse their authority, and big business conglomerates never issue biased/half-truthful/false statements ;)

Star_Dancer

03-05-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by HexRei

true!

and we all know that security guards never abuse their authority, and big business conglomerates never issue biased/half-truthful/false statements ;)

Hey... yer blockin the aisle. Move along please or I will be forced to pepper spray you in the eye.

LordWoon

03-05-2003, 01:59 PM

Mike S-

See, now we're getting into the "he said/she said" argument. What you reiterated was the statement from the customers, which (quite rightly) contradicts what the mall employees said. But, like you said earlier, we're not hearing the whole story. And, as I've said earlier, it's because the whole story doesn't make it as interesting.

Hex-

No, they are not idiots for simply wearing their t-shirts to a mall but they are idiots for refusing an order to leave from a police officer. I don't care how right you think you are, if you want to assert authority, I don't suggest trying it with a cop. Well, unless you want to go to jail... this guy is, what did it say... 61 years old? He knows better. Hell, his bloody son knew better.

Now, if it comes down to an argument about if the mall was within its rights to do what they did, who knows? That all depends on whose story you listen to, yeah?

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 02:32 PM

Yeah because we all know the media would NEVER write something to make it sound like they wanted. I mean, why would they ever need to do that to sell newspapers. Even though a man being arrested for wearing a T-shirt is a much more scandalous than a man toting peace talk. But that's all beside the point... right?
heh, no, its a valid point you make... despite the scathing sarcasm.

who's more untrustworthy? - mall cops or paperazzi? i think they both suck.

Kosmicdog

03-05-2003, 02:34 PM

I slept in the bushes outside that mall once.

Ishkur

03-05-2003, 02:45 PM

I this story would have been much more interesting if he were black, and was going off about civil rights.

yeah. Let's see the mall handle that one.

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Roddimus
Well Jason, if they were being disruptive, then my opinion is decidedly different.
It's just the article you posted made it seem like all they were doing was wearing the t-shirts when they got pulled aside and arrested.

My thoughts were exactly that, I first posted it becuase I thought it was bull shit what happend to them and as the story unfolded and than I heard the guy being interviewed for a good five minutes on a talk radio show which prompted me to post a link to it and call them idiots, and the simple fact that they did this whole stunt to purposley be disruptive and act like total dicks is when I quickly lost all of my sympathy for these two guys.

If they were being confrontational, rude or abrasive to customers, then I guess I can understand why the mall would have taken issue.
Kinda reminds me vaguely of the asshole war protestors who stop traffic during rush hour just to pull off some esoteric stunt that doesn't accomplish anything or even make that poignant of a statement.
Just recently here in Oly, a few of the more radical greeners from the dorms decided to stop traffic on the main bridge connecting the west side with downtown. They stopped their car in the middle of the bridge, blocking both lanes of traffic, and then proceeded to bash their car with a sledge hammer.
WTF???

Actually I heard about that, wasn't it discussed on the board?

Not only does this portray the anti-war movement as a bunch of impatient jackasses, it alienates and infuriates the more moderate and level headed anti-war advocates (such as my self) who just happened to be caught in traffic at that time.

That's exactly what Alan Colmes from FoxNews - Hannity and Colmes has been saying. I've been listening to his new radio show and he is a anti-war guy, far left liberal (progressive) and he said that last night, that the vast majority of his fellow anti-war progressives are making idiots out of themselves calling the president a terrorist, fighting, looting, etc which he thinks is causing him and his views to become irrelevant in the court of public opinion.

BTW - Rodd your a pacifist right? anti-war same thing right?

-Jason

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by LordWoon
You just watch, that mall is going to be absolutley flooded by people wearing anti- war shirts now, because of this article. That, and coupled with peoples' inability to read the whole thing.

Ohh great! So the mall is going to be filled with tons of peaceniks wearing these t-shirts becuase they think they have the whole story when in fact they are misguided "again". Grr.

Isn't there some kind of law, rule, or cosmic force that if your misguided on two issues in the same week they cancel each other out and inhibits you from ever opening your mouth again without having a logical thinking process first?

Geez when does the madness stop?

-Jason

186k\sec

03-05-2003, 02:57 PM

I slept in the bushes outside that mall once.
that is simply - beautiful..
but you're lucky the mall cops didnt arrest you for loitering..

Star_Dancer

03-05-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by 186k\sec

heh, no, its a valid point you make... despite the scathing sarcasm.

who's more untrustworthy? - mall cops or paperazzi? i think they both suck.

Sorry for the sarcasm, it wasn't directed at you per see. Media Bullshit is one thing I can't tolerate.

And I'd like to order a large supreme paperazzi hold the anchovis please.

ijji

03-05-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Mike S
That someone was actually asked to leave a mall for wearing any t-shirt (obviously offensive language excluded) and then arrested for trespassing because he wouldn't comply is so absurd it boggles the mind. -I don't fault the arresting officers on this one.. they were responding to a trespassing complaint called in by mall security-
but, why did these mall rent-a-cops think this guy needed to leave?

Its just too stupid to be the whole story.

I'd like to know what exactly the guy was doing and saying cause as is... this story doesn't pass the sniff test.

MS

^^^^^Exactly.

Even though it's already been said, the mall has every right to kick them out for disruptive behavior. God knows there have been times where I have wished certain people were kicked out of the store I was in. On the other side of it, no one should be penalized for wearing a T-Shirt (even though those peace T-Shirts are FUCKING ANNOYING). Like Mike said, something else is going on here. Major pieces of the puzzle missing here folks coupled with media sensationalism makes for great headlines & another story that will *poof* disappear as quickly as it came.

ijji

03-05-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Kosmicdog
I slept in the bushes outside that mall once.

HA HA HAAAA!!!

Originally posted by ZupanGOD

Isn't there some kind of law, rule, or cosmic force that if your misguided on two issues in the same week they cancel each other out and inhibits you from ever opening your mouth again without having a logical thinking process first?

ROFLMA!

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 05:40 PM

The father and son who wore these t-shirts had gotten arrested appeared on The O'Reilly Factor tonight. According to Bill these guys should sue the mall. <G> Want to know what I think would be great? If Bill put on the t-shirt and walked around that mall for shits and giggles. Now that would be classic! <G>

Roddimus

03-05-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by ZupanGOD

BTW - Rodd your a pacifist right? anti-war same thing right?

-Jason
Yep.
Although, since it's looking we're still going into Iraq sometime next week anyway, I'd like to see the situation handled as delicately as possible.
I say pull an El Sid on Saddam's ass.
We drop an electromagnetic bomb on Bagdad, cut off their water supply, surround the city air tight (but don't fire a single shot unless fired upon) and offer safe refuge to anyone who wants out.
Then, we deal with anyone who's still willing to fight.
Personally, I think that'd be the most humane option and a shit load less damaging in the long run.
But since Bush seems to think 800+ cruise missles would work better, I doubt this war is gonna end up coming CLOSE to solving any of the problems it claims to be taking care of.

ZupanGOD

03-05-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Roddimus

Yep.

Ok, cool. Hey it's a position I probaly never will understand but I completley respect it. The thing that really rubs me the wrong way are those who are anti-war, pacifists or what ever and debate this issue as if they would be willing to goto war if there was actually situations and considerations which meets their liking. It would save everyone fustration if they just said hey I'm a pacifist instead, it would make things a hell of allot more easier. There is nothing more fustrating than holding a blue pen up to someone and they continue to argue that it's red, no matter how obvious it is blue, and the blue can't get any bluer. And.. ahhh yeah.. that's my anology when debating a pacifist on war. <G>

Although, since it's looking we're still going into Iraq sometime next week anyway, I'd like to see the situation handled as delicately as possible.
I say pull an El Sid on Saddam's ass.
We drop an electromagnetic bomb on Bagdad, cut off their water supply, surround the city air tight (but don't fire a single shot unless fired upon) and offer safe refuge to anyone who wants out.
Then, we deal with anyone who's still willing to fight.
Personally, I think that'd be the most humane option and a shit load less damaging in the long run.
But since Bush seems to think 800+ cruise missles would work better, I doubt this war is gonna end up coming CLOSE to solving any of the problems it claims to be taking care of.

Yeah, I just saw that History channle special on Saddams bombmaker and they showed video footage of baath party meetings where he executed people of his own party who spoke out, and saw other footage of countless of public executions, tourchor, etc etc on his own people made me sick to my stomach. The fact he purposley puts military installations next to or with in civilian locations makes me just as sick. I'm kinda of curious though bro, why would you even fathom the idea of living your life under the boot heel of an oppressive regime? Becuase if you oppose war and you lived under Saddam's rule you'd be doing just that being okay living under Saddam's boot heel. I'd be like the tens of thousands of Iraq's who've died trying to get rid of him, at least I fought for my freedom. [sigh]

Take care,
Jason

Roddimus

03-05-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by ZupanGOD

Ok, cool. Hey it's a position I probaly never will understand but I completley respect it.

I dunno. Seems pretty simple to me. It goes along with that whole idea of being the change you want to see...

I'm kinda of curious though bro, why would you even fathom the idea of living your life under the boot heel of an oppressive regime? Becuase if you oppose war and you lived under Saddam's rule you'd be doing just that being okay living under Saddam's boot heel. I'd be like the tens of thousands of Iraq's who've died trying to get rid of him, at least I fought for my freedom. [sigh]

Take care,
Jason
I'm not opposed to ousting Saddam in anyway shape or form, I just don't see a bloodbath as being the only option for doing so.
Like I said, cutting off Bagdad's electrical capabilities and water supply until the citizens sook refuge with uncle sam would be a better option than simply carpet boming them into submission.
Then all that would be left would be the handful of despots that probably wouldn't even put up much of a fight. We could bring Saddam before the Hauge and allow Iraq to run itself democratically.
No more Saddam, few if any civilian casualties, limited long-term effects.
But if Bush does go through with his bomb 'em and see what happens bullshit, we're not going to be in much better shape internationally than we were before.

ZupanGOD

03-06-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Roddimus
I'm not opposed to ousting Saddam in anyway shape or form, I just don't see a bloodbath as being the only option for doing so.
Like I said, cutting off Bagdad's electrical capabilities and water supply until the citizens sook refuge with uncle sam would be a better option than simply carpet boming them into submission.
Then all that would be left would be the handful of despots that probably wouldn't even put up much of a fight. We could bring Saddam before the Hauge and allow Iraq to run itself democratically.
No more Saddam, few if any civilian casualties, limited long-term effects.
But if Bush does go through with his bomb 'em and see what happens bullshit, we're not going to be in much better shape internationally than we were before.

Well hurry up and get this fool proof plan up to the US Military quick. I'm sure they have no idea on how to deal with Saddam. <G>

-J

ZupanGOD

03-06-2003, 07:39 AM

Mall Wants to Drop Peace T-Shirt Charges
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030305_2723.html

186k\sec

03-06-2003, 08:23 AM

Stephen Downs, 61, and his son were stopped Monday by mall security guards and asked to remove their shirts that read "Peace on Earth" and "Give Peace a Chance," or leave. Roger Downs, 31, took off his shirt. But his father, a lawyer with the state Commission on Judicial Conduct and a former Peace Corps volunteer, refused.

The guards called police, and he was charged with trespassing and pleaded innocent.

Tim Kelley, director of Operations for Pyramid Mall management, the mall's owner, said in a statement that Downs' behavior and clothing was disruptive to other shoppers.

The men had had the T-shirts made at a mall store and wore them while they shopped.

ha! -, turns out the old man is a lawyer! - with the State Commision on Judicial behavior nonetheless! - whoowah!
no wonder the . M a l l .wants to drop charges...however,
they continue to claim his behavior was disruptive - but no specific information as to what they were doing.. its also interesting they admit the clothing (t-shirts ) were disruptive.

bungle bliss

03-08-2003, 09:42 AM

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=113433&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=3/8/2003

The security officer at Crossgates Mall who signed a trespassing complaint against a war protester was fired Friday.

Robert Williams said he was called into the mall security office about four hours into his shift and told he was fired because of Monday's incident and for signing the complaint against Steve Downs, 60, of Selkirk. ...

Williams, who has worked in security at the mall for more than nine years, said he signed the complaint on the orders of his boss, assistant director of security Fred Tallman. Those orders came after Tallman told the Guilderland police officer working the case that he (Tallman) was too busy to come to the police station and that Williams represented the company and should sign.

"I just followed directions of management of that mall to the letter," Williams said Friday evening. "And I get fired for doing my job."

Mall officials did not return phone calls Friday evening seeking comment. Guilderland Police Chief James Murley also did not respond to a request for comment. ...