having trouble with guilt over the war?

[capttwinky]

are you worried that your tax money is being used to kill children instead of feed them? That our forigen policy has/is/will cause untold suffering for countless mothers?

Do you opperate at a constant, low level state of depression?

Don't worry, there is help

http://www.e-sheep.com/ourleader/empathy/

[HexRei]

I'm confused as to how to feel about Saddam Hussein, actually.
Factually, he is a monster who murders his political rivals, nerve gasses his citizens, and attacks neighboring nations in an attempt to force them under his violent, real, and very literal dictatorship.
Yet, I am pressured to feel sorry for him because George Bush does not approve of him, and we all know that anything Dubya hates must be good.
How do I reconcile immediate but limited suffering during a regime change vs all the future suffering saddam will inflict on his citizens if he remains in power?

Oh yeah, go protest.

[TeknoAXE]

not really...

AXE

[LordWoon]

originally posted by HexRei
I'm confused as to how to feel about Saddam Hussein, actually.
Factually, he is a monster who murders his political rivals, nerve gasses his citizens, and attacks neighboring nations in an attempt to force them under his violent, real, and very literal dictatorship.
Yet, I am pressured to feel sorry for him because George Bush does not approve of him, and we all know that anything Dubya hates must be good.
How do I reconcile immediate but limited suffering during a regime change vs all the future suffering saddam will inflict on his citizens if he remains in power?

Oh yeah, go protest.

LOL

And this is why Peter is on the top of my list of favorite people. :D

[Lailoni]

I hope that our government has taken into consideration about what is going to happen after Saddam is out of the picture, because, Islamists and Traditionalists reject modernity, this means that they reject Western secularism and the rejection of religious values from most aspects of daily life in what Mohammad Arkoun calls the “mythical West”. From this view, reason and the Enlightenment have become the new evils, because they dare to equate Man with God. The sin of modern Man is to reject the importance of God and put in its place the importance of the Individual.
The very word individualism is enemy to many of today's Islamists. But what they understand of the term is superficial, a clichéd vision of life in the West as seen on television and films - a world of sex, violence and loneliness - that overlooks religion, custom and tradition. Such rejection is also part of a larger process that seeks to cast Islam as the epitome of Third World ideology, the obvious successor to Marxism, nationalism, colonial weakness and the glorification of a mythologized Islam. However, Islam is part of Western civilization, just as Western civilization is part of Islam. They are both entwined.
Most Muslims do not really think of Modernity in terms of a break with the Past. Modernity means new and better technology and an improved standard of living. But unlike in Western societies, it also means a renewal with the Past, a return to the fundamentals of Islam. This mind set has other subtle and important implications. Suffrage is welcome, but not necessarily the idea that individual freedom is an essential precondition for the exercise of democracy. An Islamist would understand the right to think what you like but only as long as it is permitted by Allah.
Western cultures, in varying degrees, claim that human beings should act and think according to their own desires and beliefs. But for many traditionalist Muslims, individualism opens the door to selfishness, a denial of God. Passions, desires and, the human imagination, must therefore be tightly restricted. Most human beings, especially in the West, operate under the belief that their decisions are governed by reason alone. Reason implies Free Will. But most human acts are, at best, a mix of Reason, Emotion and Custom. The antithesis: West = Reason = Secularism as opposed to the equation Islam = Belief in God = Salvation is a false one, both in its description of the West and in its denial of Islam's own past. Mohammad Arkoun has argued that Islam is part of the Western tradition; that the Western tradition is part of Islam; that they therefore share a common belief in the power of reason.
Islam, in short, is no more or less pro- or anti-Modernity than Western civilization. Indeed, some argue that Islam actively encourages Reason and Free Will more actively than Christianity. As we have discussed in class the concept of Original Sin, for example, is simply absent from Islam. Islam encourages any Muslim to seek their own path to God. A good Muslim should be anything but rigid or obedient to anyone other than the Divine. No one person has the corner of wisdom or to God. Any Muslim, can discover the essence of God in their own way, and in their own time.
Setting Religion up against Religion is, in Arkoun's judgment, a false dichotomy, false to Islam and to Judeo-Christian traditions, a legacy of the exclusionary nature of Greek thought. There is really little, if anything in Islamic thought, therefore, that contradicts or even opposes Modernity. What critics of Modernity may really fear is loss of control or privilege. Or simply fear of Change itself. Islam can modernize and accept the new, even from outside its own tradition. A situation arises for which there is no obvious solution. A Muslim could seek analogous situations in the life of the Prophet. However, the current climate is not particularly favorable. Orthodox way of life is the answer.
Ironically, we find this new orthodoxy and condemnation of Modernity in cities, not in the countryside. Westerners tend to think of cities as modern, villages as traditional and conservative. But rural Islam is generally more flexible and practical than its urban counterpart. Ernest Gellner once wrote that Islam and Modernization were absolutely compatible. But he meant urban, disciplined Islam, not the relaxed, generous Islam of the countryside that still uses traditions and learns to adapt dogma to the practicality of praying, or simply getting along with one's neighbors. Village Islam is often Sufistic in nature, something today's urban Islam’s dislike.
Islamisation is less of a reaction against modernization than a product of it. Islam as an ideology offers millions of urban men and women a simple and effective access to the world of development and consumption, from which they currently feel excluded. This parallels Marxism - a revolutionary vanguard, a mythologized version of History, a revolutionary break with the corrupt ways of the unbelievers, combined with blind faith, a simplified credo, hatred and demonization of all who refuse or deny History. But does this mean that the current Islamic resurgence is also destined to experience the same fate?
Religions are not rigid and immutable. They adapt or shrivel, or mutate into other forms. There is no reason why Islam should prove different. There is nothing in the Qu’ran that suggests that Islam is less open to democracy or equality of the sexes than either Christianity or Judaism. Nor is there any inherent reason why Islam should prove less able to accept change. It is entirely possible that it can formulate an alternative and effective theory of Modernity that integrates faith into a more realistic theory than the largely mythical Western model. Indeed, there is much that suggests it may prove more open and flexible as a religion than either of the other two monotheistic faiths.
Religion is not always what intellectuals say they are. They are how individuals practice and use them to seek guidance and comfort. They are also tools with which the powerful use to mobilize and placate human beings. Islam has demonstrated great flexibility in adapting to local customs and to change. I think that the future of Islam is in societies where Muslims are a minority, not a majority, where Islam can do what it does best – adapt, change and metamorphose itself to meet Modernity halfway; where the presence of its own past is largely absent, or for the role of post modernity to take hold in the larger and more densely populated Islamic societies.

[Lailoni]

Oh yeah and go protest, just as long as you dont stop traffic and imped anyone else's freedom to get to work. THANKS!!

[Cedwyn]

How do I reconcile immediate but limited suffering during a regime change vs all the future suffering saddam will inflict on his citizens if he remains in power?

until we start going after every one of the brutal dictatorships currently extant, comments like this mean little...

good points, lailoni...

i also wonder just what the hell we expect to happen if we manage to set up a democracy in iraq, given that the majority of the population is muslim.

[TeknoAXE]

Originally posted by Cedwyn



i also wonder just what the hell we expect to happen if we manage to set up a democracy in iraq, given that the majority of the population is muslim.

Iran is a working democracy.

Furthermore, implying that they will reject democracy because they are muslim is a bit prejudiced, don't you think?

AXE

[Lailoni]

Islam and democracy can co-exist, but perhaps not the Westenized verson of democracy. Saudi Arabia does have Muslim version of democracy, but there is some issues that need to be tweaked in order for the corruption that is present in that government to not exist. Not to say that the U. S. version of democracy isnt corrupt by any means.
The viability of Islamic nations to become democratic is in their doctine, Mohammad himself consulted and debated with his advisors, and there was voting amongst them. In the Quran itself there is pecepts to this ideal of a democracy. Not suprisingly however, due to the influence of Greek and Roman ideals in that particular part of the world at the time. Such documents as the Repulblic, by Plato would not be known to us if not for Islamic scholars, who took the time to hide them and translate them, during the religious chaos that was the inquisition, before the Enlightenment, where all those wonderful philosophic documents were deemed unpious and were to be destroyed.
I hope that the US has a gentle hand when dealing with the issues that Iraqi people are about to face. We cannot impose our ideals upon them unilaterally, if we do, it will end up being like when the British colonized them. They need to learn and own their freedom, and not be told what it is, and how to do it, they need to figure it out for themselves.

[Lailoni]

Originally posted by Buttrock_Beethoven


Iran is a working democracy.

Furthermore, implying that they will reject democracy because they are muslim is a bit prejudiced, don't you think?

AXE

I think that prejudice is a harsh word.

[Cedwyn]

Furthermore, implying that they will reject democracy because they are muslim is a bit prejudiced, don't you think?

it may well be. good thing that's not at all what i was saying.

[DJ Rawkus]

Originally posted by HexRei
I'm confused as to how to feel about Saddam Hussein, actually.
Factually, he is a monster who murders his political rivals, nerve gasses his citizens, and attacks neighboring nations in an attempt to force them under his violent, real, and very literal dictatorship.
Yet, I am pressured to feel sorry for him because George Bush does not approve of him, and we all know that anything Dubya hates must be good.
How do I reconcile immediate but limited suffering during a regime change vs all the future suffering saddam will inflict on his citizens if he remains in power?

Oh yeah, go protest. I'd shit a brick if you got off your ass and protested instead of playing Counterstrike and sparkin' up for hours on end. :D

[DJ Rawkus]

Originally posted by Lailoni
Oh yeah and go protest, just as long as you dont stop traffic and imped anyone else's freedom to get to work. THANKS!! Alright! Way to miss the point of protesting in the first place! :rolleyes: Apparently, you don't understand the economics part of protesting and lucky you.. I'm gonna explain it in short concise words that you shouldn't have any difficulty grasping: employment=taxes=money for war!

If you put a wrench in the cog of the capitalist machine, it will stop brutally quick. Which I surmise is why nobody asked the people in their cars what they wanted to do and blocked them with less than a seconds' thought. If protestors went around surveying which route is of the least resistance and which is more appeasing to the public, it would be of no use to even bother demonstrating!! Hence why i think "permitted marches" are oxymoronic but entertaining like a Macy's day parade. And about as effective.

[Lailoni]

hey I have another word for your obviously extensive vocabulary...
SARCASM!! You jerkhole!

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by DJ Rawkus
Alright! Way to miss the point of protesting in the first place! :rolleyes: Apparently, you don't understand the economics part of protesting and lucky you.. I'm gonna explain it in short concise words that you shouldn't have any difficulty grasping: employment=taxes=money for war!

If you put a wrench in the cog of the capitalist machine, it will stop brutally quick. Which I surmise is why nobody asked the people in their cars what they wanted to do and blocked them with less than a seconds' thought. If protestors went around surveying which route is of the least resistance and which is more appeasing to the public, it would be of no use to even bother demonstrating!! Hence why i think "permitted marches" are oxymoronic but entertaining like a Macy's day parade. And about as effective.

So basically what you guys are really protesting is capitalism, but using the war as a scape goat to execute these plans of distrupting other Americans civil rights and safety becuase these individuals you are fucking with is what makes up are wonderfull capitalist system which you radicals despise that kind of freedom in the first place.

Nice..

-Jason

[Lailoni]

Yeah what he said...

[TeknoAXE]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD


So basically what you guys are really protesting is capitalism, but using the war as a scape goat to execute these plans of distrupting other Americans civil rights and safety becuase these individual you are fucking with is what makes up are wonderfull capitalist system which you radicals despise that kind of freedom in the first place.

Nice..

-Jason

You know, I can't decide whether Rawkus is an anarchist or a socialist. Which one is it?

AXE

[Mirko]

Originally posted by DJ Rawkus

Hence why i think "permitted marches" are oxymoronic but entertaining like a Macy's day parade. And about as effective.

I know what you're saying and I partly agree with you, but I definitely believe that "permitted marches" are good in that they are very visible. The civil rights movement is a good example-- civil disobedience was a definitely a factor but the less extreme measures made up the bulk of the movement, and clearly it was successful.

And personally, I found it very heartening to see for example a million people in London and Rome coming together to vividly show their views.

Incidentally, ZupanGOD, anarchists ARE socialists, just not in the way the term is usually used (state socialism). I don't know how Rawkis would describe himself "politically" but I'm interesting in finding out!

[Lailoni]

Originally posted by Mirko

Incidentally, ZupanGOD, anarchists ARE socialists, just not in the way the term is usually used (state socialism). I don't know how Rawkis would describe himself "politically" but I'm interesting in finding out!

Ahh since when? Anarchists are NOT socialist. Where the fuck did you read that bunch of hoohaa?

State socialism is in NO WAY the equivient to anarchy....I think you need to go and re-read what ever it was that you read, or you need to consider the source in which you got it.

[Mirko]

Originally posted by Lailoni


Ahh since when? Anarchists are NOT socialist. Where the fuck did you read that bunch of hoohaa?

State socialism is in NO WAY the equivient to anarchy....I think you need to go and re-read what ever it was that you read, or you need to consider the source in which you got it.

Maybe the parentheses threw you off. Anarchists ARE socialists, just not in the way the term "socialism" in normally used. (The term "socialism" is often used in the context of state socialism, which is of course nothing like anarchism.)

If you dispute the fact that anarchists are socialists, you're wrong. Please read: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html#seca14

[Lailoni]

Hmmm interesting...I find myself corrected, thanks for the insight. I never looked at it like that.

[Disco Jesus]

Yay for the removal of a genocidal maniac who destroys his country's riches and has weapons of mass destruction at his disposal.
Yay for US troops over in Iraq fighting to liberate innocent people.
Yay for Bush for having the balls to reprimand Saddam for breaking UN restrictions and killing innocent Iraqis, since the UN obviously can't do it themselves.

Boo for stupid protesters whining about shit and getting exactly nowhere in their actions.
Boo for people who are too dumb to realize that peace won't work as long as people are around.
Boo for conspiracy theorists who improvise coincidences into idiotic plots which might be offensive, if they were anywhere near correct.

[dubplaya]

quote:
Alright! Way to miss the point of protesting in the first place! Apparently, you don't understand the economics part of protesting and lucky you.. I'm gonna explain it in short concise words that you shouldn't have any difficulty grasping: employment=taxes=money for war!

If you put a wrench in the cog of the capitalist machine, it will stop brutally quick. Which I surmise is why nobody asked the people in their cars what they wanted to do and blocked them with less than a seconds' thought. If protestors went around surveying which route is of the least resistance and which is more appeasing to the public, it would be of no use to even bother demonstrating!! Hence why i think "permitted marches" are oxymoronic but entertaining like a Macy's day parade. And about as effective.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Screw it. Run 'em over. I'm not gonna loose my job because someone
has a bit too much time on his/her hands to look all these "facts and figures", and then stop traffic for it. Think about it...two ton vehicle
versus human..I dunno..you do the math.

Get in my way. I'll just keep my foot on the gas.

Just a friendly message from your local governmental cashcow
enhancer by way of the US Navy.

[DJ Rawkus]

Originally posted by Buttrock_Beethoven


You know, I can't decide whether Rawkus is an anarchist or a socialist. Which one is it?

AXE I'm an politically autonomous individual. Try categorizing that and lemme know what ya come up with.

[DJ Rawkus]

Originally posted by dubplaya
quote:
Alright! Way to miss the point of protesting in the first place! Apparently, you don't understand the economics part of protesting and lucky you.. I'm gonna explain it in short concise words that you shouldn't have any difficulty grasping: employment=taxes=money for war!

If you put a wrench in the cog of the capitalist machine, it will stop brutally quick. Which I surmise is why nobody asked the people in their cars what they wanted to do and blocked them with less than a seconds' thought. If protestors went around surveying which route is of the least resistance and which is more appeasing to the public, it would be of no use to even bother demonstrating!! Hence why i think "permitted marches" are oxymoronic but entertaining like a Macy's day parade. And about as effective.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Screw it. Run 'em over. I'm not gonna loose my job because someone
has a bit too much time on his/her hands to look all these "facts and figures", and then stop traffic for it. Think about it...two ton vehicle
versus human..I dunno..you do the math.

Get in my way. I'll just keep my foot on the gas.

Just a friendly message from your local governmental cashcow
enhancer by way of the US Navy. What you just described is pre-meditated murder and a felony. That's my friendly message for the day.

[Meghann C]

Originally posted by Disco Jesus
Yay for the removal of a genocidal maniac who destroys his country's riches and has weapons of mass destruction at his disposal.
Yay for US troops over in Iraq fighting to liberate innocent people.
Yay for Bush for having the balls to reprimand Saddam for breaking UN restrictions and killing innocent Iraqis, since the UN obviously can't do it themselves.

Boo for stupid protesters whining about shit and getting exactly nowhere in their actions.
Boo for people who are too dumb to realize that peace won't work as long as people are around.
Boo for conspiracy theorists who improvise coincidences into idiotic plots which might be offensive, if they were anywhere near correct.

My thoughts exactly

[HexRei]

Originally posted by DJ Rawkus
What you just described is pre-meditated murder and a felony. That's my friendly message for the day.

I'd just get out and drag the fucker off the street. Maybe make a citizen's arrest and handcuff them to a stop sign. The right to travel freely within the US has been upheld over and over in courts and a protester's right to stand in the street ends at my right to get to my destination (which, for all the protester knows/gives a flying fuck, could be to the freakin hospital to save someone's life... but hey, who expects a protester to actually think about anything?)

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by HexRei


I'd just get out and drag the fucker off the street. Maybe make a citizen's arrest and handcuff them to a stop sign. The right to travel freely within the US has been upheld over and over in courts and a protester's right to stand in the street ends at my right to get to my destination (which, for all the protester knows/gives a flying fuck, could be to the freakin hospital to save someone's life... but hey, who expects a protester to actually think about anything?)

Damn your logic is spot on, that part of these protestors stupidity totally escaped my imagination for some reason. Now that I think about it, isn't law enforcement now having to put night sticks to these punks skulls instead of terrorist ones? Meaning that law enforcement has to advert their resources to watch over these selfish Americans? I wonder what would happen if there was a terrorist attack in San Francisco in the next few weeks all while the protestors have been adverting resources of law enforcement. Hmm..

[LordWoon]

originally posted by ZupanGod Meaning that law enforcement has to advert their resources to watch over these selfish Americans? I wonder what would happen if there was a terrorist attack in San Francisco in the next few weeks all while the protestors have been adverting resources of law enforcement. Hmm..

They'd still blame the governement.

[burnt]

so -

this thread started out as a happy feel good site for some kind of guilt for whiners who worry about the war...

into some arguing about whether or not the Middle East is ready for democracy - oh, and we're *DEFINITELY* sure they're ready to accept us...

quick segue into some college-boy dissertation on "labels"...

into yelling at protestors asserting that this...might...not be the best option for initializing any kind of long-term campaign.

interesting that we're having the same argument over a year later, when both sides continue to prove themselves right and each other wrong in the same old arguments. =)

[Pler]

Funny,

I doubt any of the pro-war, conservative types would still care to stand behind the assertions they made back in 2003. I see a few people (i.e. Zupan) who have retreated a bit from their initial sentiments.

The protesters were right to protest. it was apparant to anyone who applied a little bit of logic, critical thinking, and wasn't a conservative toady or a nationalist that we were doing the wrong thing by going into Iraq...that there was no justification, no threat, no WMD, no cullusion with Al Queda, no drones, no mobile weapons labs.

Told you so.