Who supports this war?

[Mike S]

Some interesting numbers I tought I'd share.



Washington Post-ABC News Poll: War Support Widespread
Monday, April 7, 2003

Results shown are based on a Washington Post-ABC News telephone poll conducted April 2 - 6 among 1,030 randomly selected adults nationwide. The margin of sampling error for results shown ranges from plus or minus 3 to 12 percentage points, depending on the size of the demographic subsample. Sampling error is only one of many potential sources of error in this or any other public opinion poll. Interviewing was conducted by TNS Intersearch of Horsham, Pa.

Q: Do you support or oppose the United States having gone to war with Iraq?


All Americans
Support 77%
Oppose 16
No opinion 7

% support
Conservative Republicans 99%
Republicans: all/men/women 95
Moderate Republicans 92
All conservatives 88
45-54 year olds 87
Men 82
Whites 81
Southerners 80
High School graduate 79
Have family or friend serving in Middle East 79
Northeasterners 78
Political moderates 78
35-44 year olds 77
Midwesterners 77
18-34 year olds 76
Some college or college grads 76
Less than high school education 73
Women 72
65 year olds + 72
55-64 year olds 71
Democratic men 71
Westerners 70
Moderate Democrats 67
All Democrats 65
Liberals 63
Democratic women 60
Liberal Democrats 52
African Americans 49

[burnt]

you know Mike, I don't doubt that our president has garnered a lot...possibly the majority...of this nation's support for his cause. but I just gotta point out, that Consumer Market Research has a flaw at the very core of its business/social model

first of all, there's the stigma associated with Market Researchers in the front lines of data collection. these are the people who call you up during dinner, right along with telemarketers and rude debt collectors. its been my experience that as soon as a Market Researcher begins his conversation with "hello Sir/Ma'am, my name is burnt, and I'm calling you this evening to conduct a brief public opinion poll, are you interested in participating?" :D

...most folks hang up the phone. or say something rude, and hang up.

its also been my experience, that a lot of people don't really have home phones/land lines anymore, most folks have a celly.......well, most of the more "successful" type folks. those that still *have* land lines, often have caller ID, or some other sort of simple technology, which they can use to screen their calls. so, most of the more "successful" folks out there, aren't getting contacted by Market Researchers.

and finally, there's the people who *DO* answer the phone, and originally refuse to participate. a lot of Market Researchers attempt to turn these refusals around, make a successul poll out of the original apprehension.

so, the Respondent initially refuses, then they change their mind. they're "pressured" into taking the poll, by a stranger on the other side of the phone. this small number of fickle pushovers in the American populace, actually accounts for a great deal of the final, completed surveys conducted by Market Researchers.

I'm sure there were probably a lot of rude rednecks who support this war, who initially responded to the survey with "I ain't innerusted!", and hung up the phone. I'm sure there were also a lot of wacko paranoid lefties who were worrying about Operation TIPS or whatever, and refused to participate as well. possibly those statistics are even somewhat close to the statistics you've posted.

my point? just that Consumer based Market Research is a bunch of hogwash, and futile if you're attempting to use it to obtain an accurate statistical count of Consumers' opinions.

your survey shouldn't convey the message that 77% of Americans support the war........but rather that, 77% of fickle/pushover Americans who still actively use a home phone, do not screen their calls, and have nothing better to do between the hours of 5-9pm than take a survey, support this war.

[Mike S]

You know what i love best about surveys? Is the spin put on them by people who dont agree with em.

Like this:

Said by burnt
"your survey shouldn't convey the message that 77% of Americans support the war........but rather that, 77% of fickle/pushover Americans who still actively use a home phone, do not screen their calls, and have nothing better to do between the hours of 5-9pm than take a survey, support this war."

Or in other words.. only the stupid people.

Deep burnt...deep.

MS

[burnt]

ah ah ah...

I'm sure there were probably a lot of rude rednecks who support this war, who initially responded to the survey with "I ain't innerusted!", and hung up the phone. I'm sure there were also a lot of wacko paranoid lefties who were worrying about Operation TIPS or whatever, and refused to participate as well. possibly those statistics are even somewhat close to the statistics you've posted.

my point? just that Consumer based Market Research is a bunch of hogwash, and futile if you're attempting to use it to obtain an accurate statistical count of Consumers' opinions.

sorry buddy, you don't get to put any words in my mouth today. =)

I didn't say that I disagree with the possibliity that 77% of all Americans support this war, I said I disagree with the field of Consumer based Market Research, and that I question any data coming directly from traditional Consumer based Market Research. more specifically telephonically and web-driven Consumer based Market Research.

not because people responding are "stupid", but because they're pushovers, Mike.

the vast majority of Respondents will initially tell a Market Researcher that they aren't interested. most of these folks stick to their guns. some don't, and their refusals are turned around. meaning, they're fickle, or they're pushovers. they're capable of having their minds changed by a fast-talking stranger on the telephone. this demographic accounts for a large majority of completed surveys in most Consumer based Market Research.

and finally, lots and lots of smart people screen their calls, and don't pick up calls from "UNAVAILABLE". these folks are not contacted. its a given fact, that of the calls made by the average Market Researcher, only 20% result in any kind of conversation, and 5-20% of those conversations are successful.

you haven't spent much time in a call center, have you bro........

I'm not discrediting your statistic because I want to believe that most Americans are against this war. I'm just discrediting yet another survey in which the majority of Respondents are folks sittin around on a weeknight with nothing better to do than talk to stranger on the phone. I don't know too many folks who fit into that demographic. If Effendi was posting some survey about how most Respondents polled in a survey hated Teh Joos, I'd be discrediting his survey too.......Market Research caters to the lowest common denominator.

[Carley]

I hang up.

:p

[burnt]

I mean, don't you double post on web surveys?
:D

[Mike S]

And I suppose you have some market research that shows this.. if so what does it say about your the accuracy of the research you quote?
;)
MS

[Mike S]

Originally posted by burnt
I mean, don't you double post on web surveys?
:D

Actually... no.

silly me..

MS

[Mike S]

http://www.ipsos-reid.com/pdf/media/mr030407-1tb.pdf

More interesting numbers for ya.

[Effendi]

the most interesting number that counts is the one you come up with individually.

Don't believe some Republican spin doctor trying to tell you what you "should believe" Ask your friends what they believe, find out for yourself if 8 out of 10 people you talk to on the street support bush and this war. That is what 77% works out to...

Interestingly enough "most" of the people I talk to do not support this war. How can my own personal calculations be so far off those that are "accurate +/- 4%" ..lol

It would seem to me that if "THEY" keep telling us that we approve of this madness, then perhapes someday we will wake up and will indeed agree with it.

There are at least 4 people I could name on this board that in the last year went from intelligent thinkers that questioned what common sense tells you to question, to all of a sudden spouting the party line.

I don't know if they succumbed to fear or decided life would be easier to just repeat what you hear from the "proper" folks at the Fox News network, or maybe just "matured".
They say you are born knowing and then you spend the rest of your life learning to forget. You know who you are. You sold yourselves out and should be ashamed.

Carolyn's signature used to say" Don't believe the Hype"!!

Scott!!

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Effendi

Interestingly enough "most" of the people I talk to do not support this war. How can my own personal calculations be so far off those that are "accurate +/- 4%" ..lol


Maybe cause you surround yourself with people that think similarly to yourself? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I suppose you think gallup (www.gallup.com) is just "republican spin doctors" too, but their numbers are pretty comparable.

[Effendi]

.

Apparently most Americans believe that this was justified.

hmmmmm.

[ZupanGOD]

Mike, Polls suck..

Regardless of whether the poll says 60%, 77% or fuckin 35% for the war, the bottom line still is that the American public supports the war. I think you posted this for chest beating. <G>

Take care,
Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Carley
I hang up.

:p

haha.. WERD!

I have caller ID and if I don't reconize your number I don't answer. So..

you get the picture. ;)

[ZupanGOD]

63% in Bay Area support war to remove dictator
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/08/MN269841.DTL

Being that San Francisco is a hotbed for radical leftists this poll strikes me as odd.

Must be a hoax!

[lafs]

Later!
-Jason

[booboo69]

Being that these polling institutes are highly politically driven, I would imagine that many, if not the vast majority, of these polls that are supposed to paint an accurate picture, are designed specificly to appease the group that stands to benefit from the positive information held within. That San Francisco thing may be a fluke, it may be a relatively accurate picture, or it may have been taken as far away from Berkley, but still in the Bay area as possible, so as to avoid the spoilers.

But then again, I am pretty cynical when it comes to politics...so who knows?

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by booboo69
Being that these polling institutes are highly politically driven, I would imagine that many, if not the vast majority, of these polls that are supposed to paint an accurate picture, are designed specificly to appease the group that stands to benefit from the positive information held within. That San Francisco thing may be a fluke, it may be a relatively accurate picture, or it may have been taken as far away from Berkley, but still in the Bay area as possible, so as to avoid the spoilers.

Yeah that's almost exactly my thoughts as well. But even so, being that this poll was taken in S.F. I too have my doubts as well. but I'd think it's more crediable than not, definitly not 100 though :)

But then again, I am pretty cynical when it comes to politics...so who knows?

:D

Take care,
Jason

[TeknoAXE]

Maybe it's not the American people we should be looking at to support the war, but the Iraqis.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2003/images/04/09/top2.statue.down.ap.jpg

AXE

[Mike S]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
Mike, Polls suck..

Regardless of whether the poll says 60%, 77% or fuckin 35% for the war, the bottom line still is that the American public supports the war. I think you posted this for chest beating. <G>

Take care,
Jason

*grins and blushes*
Yeah and I wanted to see how out of synch people around here are with the rest of the country.

MS

[Cedwyn]

50, 60, 70% whatever...

the majority of americans also love their teevee, their mcdonalds and various other assorted garbage that indicates a less-than-aware state of existence.

majority shmajority. many people believing in a stupid thing does not make it any less of a stupid thing. jefferson wrote at length on the "tyranny of the majority."

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
50, 60, 70% whatever...

the majority of americans also love their teevee, their mcdonalds and various other assorted garbage that indicates a less-than-aware state of existence.

majority shmajority. many people believing in a stupid thing does not make it any less of a stupid thing. jefferson wrote at length on the "tyranny of the majority."

Ah, and the tyranny of the minority is any better?

I mean, by your (apparent) beliefs, the best way to run a democracy is to let the least number of votes win. That's real logic there, let's make absolutely sure we please the least number of citizens possible!

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by HexRei


Ah, and the tyranny of the minority is any better?

I mean, by your (apparent) beliefs, the best way to run a democracy is to let the least number of votes win. That's real logic there, let's make absolutely sure we please the least number of citizens possible!

Democracy only works when people are eductated. With education budgets in the gutter while military spending is at an all-time high, looks like we are having a tyranny of the minority (that minority being those already elected).

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
50, 60, 70% whatever...

the majority of americans also love their teevee, their mcdonalds and various other assorted garbage that indicates a less-than-aware state of existence.

majority shmajority. many people believing in a stupid thing does not make it any less of a stupid thing. jefferson wrote at length on the "tyranny of the majority."

[lafs]

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


Democracy only works when people are eductated. With education budgets in the gutter while military spending is at an all-time high, looks like we are having a tyranny of the minority (that minority being those already elected).

Yeah .. I think I've heard this before.. if the majority disagree with the progressive perspective its only because they're uneducated. :rolleyes: Typical. And do tell what sort of indoctrin... erm I mean education would you suggest?

Boyd if they are uneducated you need only look in the mirror for the reason. The libs and their buddies in the teachers unions and the local and federal bureaucracies have had a strangle hold on education in this country -and- we have over the past 30 some years poured more and more money into education.. yet the product the education system has put out...has not improved.. and in many ways (as evidenced by some of the discussion on this board).. has become worse.
This is what I propose. Lets, before we put anymore money into education, round ALL the people up that have been responsible for the system crumbling.. That would include a whole shit load of liberals like you Boyd.. and a few idiot republicans too.. charge em with criminal negligence and felony fraud and throw them all in jail. Those that don't get thrown in jail can be put on work release building the new jails for all these scum bags to be put in..THEN. after we've wiped the slate clean and rid our system of the cancer that's plagued it... we'll revamp the entire thing, streamline it. Make it responsive to the parents, teachers and children in the local districts not the leftist bureaucrat's in Washington (who will all be imprisoned anyway) and then spend the money.. Hell at that point I wouldn't care if the military had to have a bake sale to build a bomber.. at least I would know the money spent on education went to education and not some fat cat administrator, union thug or bureaucrat's house in the hamptons. That the 3 Rs were the order of the day not heather has two mommies and progressive social engineering schemes.

Sound good to you Boyd.. cause I think its a grand Idea.

Don't get my tongue and cheek response wrong Boyd.. I'm all for education. because,among many other reasons, I.. being educated.. know the one true way to rid the country of the plague of progressive liberalism is to educate the people. ;)
MS

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


Democracy only works when people are eductated. With education budgets in the gutter while military spending is at an all-time high, looks like we are having a tyranny of the minority (that minority being those already elected).
The problem, of course, is that you equate "educated" with "believing as you do". I mean, they must not be educated, because if they were, they would naturally oppose the war on Iraq, right?

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by HexRei

The problem, of course, is that you equate "educated" with "believing as you do". I mean, they must not be educated, because if they were, they would naturally oppose the war on Iraq, right?

Originally posted by Mike S
Yeah .. I think I've heard this before.. if the majority disagree with the progressive perspective its only because they're uneducated. :rolleyes: Typical. And do tell what sort of indoctrin... erm I mean education would you suggest?

Whoa there crack heads. Looks like you are two of the first to need some of that improved edumacation. Lets start with reading comprehension - I did not say that the people who i disagree with are too stupid to be allowed vote, or whatever other words you'd like to shove down my throat.

(btw. Hex, what the fuck happened to you?)

Originally posted by Mike S
Sound good to you Boyd.. cause I think its a grand Idea.
[/B]
Actually yes, it does sound good to me. Very good. Seriously.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Boyd Main




Whoa there crack heads. Looks like you are two of the first to need some of that improved edumacation. Lets start with reading comprehension - I did not say that the people who i disagree with are too stupid to be allowed vote, or whatever other words you'd like to shove down my throat.

(btw. Hex, what the fuck happened to you?)




You implied it very well tho Boyd..

(and look out hex.. you're precieved as having stepped off the ideological reservation .. now something has "happened" to you...)

MS

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


Actually yes, it does sound good to me. Very good. Seriously.

hehehehe... Well then boyd when I decide to run against Baghdad Jim for house I'll hire you as my education advisor. :)

MS

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Boyd Main

(btw. Hex, what the fuck happened to you?)


I have wondered that myself.

He has changed his view 180 degree's in six months, and I know Peter and he is highly intelligent, so I am really wondering why the change of heart myself.

Maybe he just got tired of being on the "other" side and found the road easier on the "right" side.

The important thing is that a person is true to themselves whatever that involves believing.

Scott!!

ps..I'm actually pretty tired of all of this myself.....

peace out crew!!

[nouseforaname]

i get thanked everyday by the local people here in iraq. if you were here seeing what im seeing, you wouldnt beopposed to this war.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by nouseforaname
i get thanked everyday by the local people here in iraq. if you were here seeing what im seeing, you wouldnt beopposed to this war.



I thank you again and hope that you get home soon to you friends and loved ones.

Don't let some of the pessimism on this board fool you.. It is very much not indicative of the sentiment of the country. We.. the vast majority of the country are very very proud of you people over there. They way you guys have handled yourselves has show the military to be an organization filled with people of a caliber that even hard core supporters like me failed to appreciate previously. Thank you.

And for what its worth some of these people are seeing what you are seeing they just refuse to accept that its real.

Speaking from my own experience.. when a person invests so much of themselves into a particular world view its hard to let go of it even when the obvious failure of it to pan out is staring you in the face.
It gonna take a while for some of these folks to work through the fact that what they thought to be real ..isn't.

Thanks again nouseforaname.

Mike

PS.. there's a lot of us sitting on our asses over here wondering if we can do anything for you guys busting your asses over there. Any suggestions? Anything people can do over here for you guys and if so how do we go about doing it. This is a music oriented board. You guys need music? If so how do we get it to you?

MS

[nouseforaname]

Just the support i see from people back in the us is enough for me.. Maybe when i get back someone might be able to help me make a website.. Not so much on the military but all these photos i have of kids, humanitarian aid and living conditions these people are living in.. If i could just change a few peoples minds that are country is doing good stuff over here and will continue to do good stuff for the people over here it will be worth it

[nouseforaname]

my email is brandon.aird@us.army.mil

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Monk
...but I don't support the strategy that was used. yes.

"random call" polls are notoriously inaccurate.

[Carley]

^^Brandon that's a lovely idea.

& as for polls, check Gallup ;)

Originally posted by Effendi


The important thing is that a person is true to themselves whatever that involves believing.



I think that is the most important thing too Scott

I have been attacked for my views more since the beginning of this war than at any other point in time ~ and I’m pretty fucking ‘liberal.’ Someone who was once a **friend** of mine berated me with insults just because my opinion didn’t jive with theirs. I think it’s very sad when people take to insulting each others as humans because of something as vain as a difference in opinion ~ especially when one opinion is so small compared to how many ‘issues’ there really are in the world. But evidently "everything else" you've accomplished as a human doesn't matter when ONE, or TWO.. or FIVE of your opinions doesn't fit someone elses mold ;)

And you know what else sucks ~ being pigeon holed. Neither Peter nor I have given anyone ammo enough to call us ‘right’ ‘wrong’ or ‘left’. Scott, you even know both of us. Nothing has “changed,” we just have varying opinions on an issue that doesn’t have any right answers. This is what makes the world interesting.

I really wish people would focus less on who’s left & who’s right and more on the words people are actually typing.

With the exception of Jason. He’s just a lunatic.

(^hehhheh JOKEYJOKEY!)

;););)

/edit

(and look out hex.. you're precieved as having stepped off the ideological reservation .. now something has "happened" to you...)

I JUST SAW THIS!!! Here is my belated OMGOMGOMG!!! ;) 'ideological reservation' ~ Funnay!

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Effendi
Interestingly enough "most" of the people I talk to do not support this war. How can my own personal calculations be so far off those that are "accurate +/- 4%"ack, sorry scott, not buying this one, either.

i don't know you personally, so i can't say this is fact for your statement, but "most" of the people we "talk to" are either our friends, or at the very least, people we have just met that :usually: fall under the same demographic of ourselves. it would therefore be just as inaccurate as random phone call polls.

if you're talking to many different people, in many different walks of life, and with different political opinions (or parties) that’s fine. as long as your control group is properly diverse. however, this is mostly not the case, and i laugh when individuals claim they know the opinion of the whole nation based on their specific region. (i'm not saying you were claiming that, scott, i'm just ranting a bit.)

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by Carley
[B
And you know what else sucks ~ being pigeon holed. Neither Peter nor I have given anyone ammo enough to call us ‘right’ ‘wrong’ or ‘left’. Scott, you even know both of us. Nothing has “changed,” we just have varying opinions on an issue that doesn’t have any right answers. This is what makes the world interesting.

I really wish people would focus less on who’s left & who’s right and more on the words people are actually typing.
[/B]

Ne'er a truer word said. My question of HexRei "wtf happened to you?" was not neccessarily getting at the fact that he once held opinions that jived with me and now he doesn't (on this issue). It was more a response to his overly sarcastic reply to something I posted, which he misinterpreted and from which he drew wildly inaccurate conclusions about what I was saying. I should have elaborated and said "Hex, wtf happend to you? You used to appear to be a reasonable person, but that last reply of yours makes me think your reason has been clouded. Did you even read the actual lines I wrote before you read betwen them?"

Anyway, enough of this silly meta-debating, and lets get back to the nitty-gritty. :)

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by booboo69
Being that these polling institutes are highly politically driven, I would imagine that many, if not the vast majority, of these polls that are supposed to paint an accurate picture, are designed specificly to appease the group that stands to benefit from the positive information held within. That San Francisco thing may be a fluke, it may be a relatively accurate picture, or it may have been taken as far away from Berkley, but still in the Bay area as possible, so as to avoid the spoilers.

But then again, I am pretty cynical when it comes to politics...so who knows? i dont' know... i could believe that poll is true (or at least vaguely reflects the bay area views. the poll question was "do you support war to remove a dictator," and as dictators are known for committing human rights violations and hording their people's quality of life for their own benefit, i could see how they would support the removal of a dictator.

"spread the love, man"

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S
The libs and their buddies in the teachers unions and the local and federal bureaucracies have had a strangle hold on education in this country really? hummmm... i'm interested in hearing that opinion in full.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Carley
^^Brandon that's a lovely idea.

& as for polls, check Gallup ;)



I think that is the most important thing too Scott

I have been attacked for my views more since the beginning of this war than at any other point in time ~ and I’m pretty fucking ‘liberal.’ Someone who was once a **friend** of mine berated me with insults just because my opinion didn’t jive with theirs. I think it’s very sad when people take to insulting each others as humans because of something as vain as a difference in opinion ~ especially when one opinion is so small compared to how many ‘issues’ there really are in the world. But evidently "everything else" you've accomplished as a human doesn't matter when ONE, or TWO.. or FIVE of your opinions doesn't fit someone elses mold ;)

And you know what else sucks ~ being pigeon holed. Neither Peter nor I have given anyone ammo enough to call us ‘right’ ‘wrong’ or ‘left’. Scott, you even know both of us. Nothing has “changed,” we just have varying opinions on an issue that doesn’t have any right answers. This is what makes the world interesting.

I really wish people would focus less on who’s left & who’s right and more on the words people are actually typing.

With the exception of Jason. He’s just a lunatic.

(^hehhheh JOKEYJOKEY!)

;););)

Well Carley for what its worth I used to be a lot more "liberal" and when I had my "mugging" ..and then started discussing the changes of heart I was having I was viscously attacked by people who knew me very well also. Thing is my views on how things should be didnt change just the ways in which they should be achieved. Didn't matter though.
Over night I went from being "enlightened" to being a racist, bigot sexist all the stereo types.. etc and so on. In fact just the other day I was having a conversation with a friend of mine whose known me for 15 years and when the topic of politics came up I said who and what I supported and his reply was "how can you be one of those people that would round up gay people and put them in concentration camps!"
I think I'm still picking my jaw up off the floor on that one.
and I put these actions in context to how I was treated when I was younger and - I thought- more liberal - by conservative people. Never ridiculed. Nothing like you get from these little fanatics today.

Anyway.. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on a plethora of things but in this instance I can totally empathize and if I had any way of explaining the cult like weirdness some of these people display when they find out you think different than them I'd do it.. but..I dont other than to say I've discovered that here in good ol progressive "celebrate diversity" Seattle bigotry exists big time...and its ideological.

MS

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by HexRei

The problem, of course, is that you equate "educated" with "believing as you do". I mean, they must not be educated, because if they were, they would naturally oppose the war on Iraq, right? i find it interesting that all the the smartest people i know are on the fence.
just an observation.


(totally unrelated, to the former comment)
and upon viewing the poll results...

hey mike, why is there no "undecided" choice?

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
i find it interesting that all the the smartest people i know are on the fence.
just an observation.


(totally unrelated, to the former comment)
and upon viewing the poll results...

hey mike, why is there no "undecided" choice?

On the fence?.. on what topic tho .. i imagine that depending on the subject we're all "on the fence" in one way or another.

MS

[kristinachilds]

about the war. i know you were being a smart ass, but pull your head out of it

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
really? hummmm... i'm interested in hearing that opinion in full.

Sure K..

Do a little homework.. just locally if ya want to save yourself a lot of digging.. and see who and what has had our education system under its boot for 30 some years. Then.. look at what they've turned out.

Honestly if there is one area of our society that we have unfortunately let liberalism run amuck its been in the area of education.
It has been an unmitigated disaster. Imagine that tho.. :rolleyes:
Its in a shambles, who the fuck KNOWS where the money went and the pigs still have the nerve to stand there with they corrupt, repugnant paws out asking for more.

These same liberal swine snort about people in poverty when their own education schemes have propagated it.
Gets me so pissed I'd like to line the f*ckers up for a firing squad.

But then again.. what better way to have a perpetual constituency than to create victims..hmm.

Grrrrr.
As you can tell I pretty much dispise em.

MS

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
about the war. i know you were being a smart ass, but pull your head out of it



Oh.. you mean linguini spined types. yeah.. that's not intelligence Kristina .. that knee knocking cowardice.

I'd much rather deal with someone like Scott ... who at least has the balls to make his own mind up than someone wetting their finger and sticking it in the air so their politics will fit in at the next cocktail party political discussion.

MS

[booboo69]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
i dont' know... i could believe that poll is true (or at least vaguely reflects the bay area views. the poll question was "do you support war to remove a dictator," and as dictators are known for committing human rights violations and hording their people's quality of life for their own benefit, i could see how they would support the removal of a dictator.

This is exactly what I was talking about. The results of this poll may well be accurate, but the question is misleading, and most likely taken out of context. The question may be "do you support a war to remove a dictator?", and the people being asked the question may be thinking of a situation of entirely different circumstances that what happened in Iraq (where preemptive strike wasn't an issue perhaps), but then the pollers could just as easily turn around and say, "okay, so all these people who said yes support a preemptive attack on Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein.

It's spindoctoring at it's finest, pure and simple. I have no doubt that the organizations that conduct these polls are getting repayed by the beneficiaries (whetherit be the chickenhawks, greenies, kkk, whatever) in some way or another, and that ruins any and all credibility flat out.

[Carley]

Originally posted by Boyd Main
Did you even read the actual lines I wrote before you read betwen them?"

Ah! Comprende senor! ;)

Anyway, enough of this silly meta-debating, and lets get back to the nitty-gritty. :)

Muaha!! ;)

Anyway.. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on a plethora of things but in this instance I can totally empathize and if I had any way of explaining the cult like weirdness some of these people display when they find out you think different than them I'd do it.. but..I dont other than to say I've discovered that here in good ol progressive "celebrate diversity" Seattle bigotry exists big time...and its ideological.

That is for sure Bigotman! ;) It is so out of hand… and it seems to have gotten worse & worse. I don’t think I’ve seen so many Americans hate so easily before! Seems like every issue under the sun has forced people to mosh themselves into 1 of 2 lumps, and frankly I don’t want to be associated with any of them piles of bitter stagnant dough.

I can only hope people get out & vote this time ;) Really makes me wonder where “all these” people (opposing the war) were last election. Oh wait! How could I forget. That was a conspiracy… ;) Fucking shapeshifting lizard men. Or was it the Swiss? NONO~ THE NAZIS!

*quickly closes the can-o-worms & seals it with DUCT TAPE*

~Honeypie Housewife

;)

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S
Sure K.. ... Grrrrr. As you can tell I pretty much dispise em.okay, i'll rephrase my question. what are the facts that lead you to that conclusion. i will agree fully that our education system is in shambles, but i'm curious to know WHY exactly your finger is pointed... i could give a fuck WHO it's pointed at.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Carley


Hahahahah, that's really funny because I feel the same way only in the opposite direction. I have always been rather Conservative, (I'm ex-military for God's sake) but because I made some posts at some point disagreeing with our methods, I got pigeon-holed left and then got forced more and more to defend that point of view, and If there is one comment I can't get out of my head it would be what moderator Nate said.

He said, I would defend the left more as they have some good honest points, but there are too many of them that make the rest look like idiots so I'm not putting myself on a limb in there defense. (or something like that)

Someone who was once a **friend** of mine berated me with insults just because my opinion didn’t jive with theirs.

Yea, all this "Nation-Building" has sure brought out the whole "with them or against them attitude"

It is almost as though any opinion one may have is sarcasticlly made fun of if it does not follow what the majority believe.

I am so tired of being "Defined" as a believer in one direction that I think I'm going to have to take a break for awhile from this arena.

Contrary to what others may believe, I am as pleased as the next person that the Iraqi people are free, but I hold serious reservations as to their future and our role in it.

I think it’s very sad when people take to insulting each others as humans because of something as vain as a difference in opinion ~ especially when one opinion is so small compared to how many ‘issues’ there really are in the world.


WERD!! That is SO true...I can't believe that in the last year, I have been managed to be defined by my beliefs on the israeli/Palestinian situation. That is but one of at least 10,000 topics I have an interest in. Maybe it has got such attention due to the controversy it brings, but in reality, it is no more or less important than at least two dozen other hot spots in the world in my view.

But evidently "everything else" you've accomplished as a human doesn't matter when ONE, or TWO.. or FIVE of your opinions doesn't fit [b]someone elses mold ;)

WERD Once again.....Did I ever tell Tony how lucky he is......

It's funny because here is an example of that. I went to a party in Portland last month and met a bunch of the board people down there, and a number of people brought up to me a number of times about the Palestinian situation as though it has some major preference in my thinking. It does if that is the regular topic of conversation, but I was at least as interested in Nate's opinion of Pinochet and the situation in Chile. To be totally honest with you, I was much more interested in some of that Chronic we were smoking.

A time and place for everything!!

And you know what else sucks ~ being pigeon holed. Neither Peter nor I have given anyone ammo enough to call us ‘right’ ‘wrong’ or ‘left’. Scott, you even know both of us. Nothing has “changed,” we just have varying opinions on an issue that doesn’t have any right answers. This is what makes the world interesting.

Not just you and Peter, I actually think that is the case with alot of folks on here.
I know you have your differences with Jason (Zupan) but truth be told, he never used to sound as right wing and silly as he "APPEARS" now. Notice I say appears because he really is NOT that way. He really is a Liberatarian, and if you discuss anything other than the same old tired bullshit we talk about here, one would see that, but because certain people have made it their mission to "Define" each of us. ALL of our communication has suffered. And I think I'm off to find a new set of folks that have NOT been programed to think that they already know what I believe!!

I really wish people would focus less on who’s left & who’s right and more on the words people are actually typing.

Especially since both of those titles can be SO misleading.

With the exception of Jason. He’s just a lunatic.

Funny you should mention him......

I am definetly going to take a break from all this war opinion and attitude because these schoolyard wars are getting under my skin and I just don't need that shit.

Some of you know how I feel about a couple of issues, but contrary to what is suggested to you, I am a much more interesting person than can be defined in a day or a year. I fully suspect the same is true for most others also.

Scott!!

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S
Oh.. you mean linguini spined types. yeah.. that's not intelligence Kristina .. that knee knocking cowardice.

I'd much rather deal with someone like Scott ... who at least has the balls to make his own mind up than someone wetting their finger and sticking it in the air so their politics will fit in at the next cocktail party political discussion.

MS what? oh, i'm sorry, i did't hear you. i was busy tring to put on my back brace. without that thing i just go sliding right out of my chair.

michael, (yes, michael, you prick,) these people also happen to be the least cowardly people i know. views on war dont' blanket over all wars, and if they do these people aren’t thinking - or looking at the facts. this particular conflict houses a lot of good... and a lot of political manipulation and arrogance. it goes something like this:

on the one hand...

but on the other hand...

and there's information missing here...

but if they would have told the truth...

and now they fell into an excuse...

but on the one hand...

and so it goes.

just because someone doesnt' jump to conclusions and stay there doesn’t mean they're spineless, or stupid. personally, i hold high a value to one's motives. if the wrong motives initiated the action (even if it is a good action) i won't support it. this is why i am on the fence. i support the liberation of iraq, but i dont' buy that was the reasoning behind bush's action.

if you want to call me spaghetti spine now, fine, but don't go spearheading when you're drunk.

[Carley]

Originally posted by Effendi

...A time and place for everything!!...

Some of you know how I feel about a couple of issues, but contrary to what is suggested to you, I am a much more interesting person than can be defined in a day or a year. I fully suspect the same is true for most others also.

Scott!!

I love you Scott!

*passes to the left hand side* ;)

[Ram]

I am perfectly willing to believe that the vast majority of Americans
are okay with this war. I do believe there are significant numbers of
people against the war in Seattle and San Francisco. I also feel that
people in Seattle and San Francisco are quite different from most of
America and I'm happy about that. I'd move someplace else in the world
were it not for these cities and their environment.

As far as left vs. right, and conservative vs. liberal. I'm against
all forms of top-down government.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Boyd Main

Ne'er a truer word said. My question of HexRei "wtf happened to you?" was not neccessarily getting at the fact that he once held opinions that jived with me and now he doesn't (on this issue). It was more a response to his overly sarcastic reply to something I posted, which he misinterpreted and from which he drew wildly inaccurate conclusions about what I was saying. I should have elaborated and said "Hex, wtf happend to you? You used to appear to be a reasonable person, but that last reply of yours makes me think your reason has been clouded. Did you even read the actual lines I wrote before you read betwen them?"

You said:

Democracy only works when people are eductated. With education budgets in the gutter while military spending is at an all-time high, looks like we are having a tyranny of the minority (that minority being those already elected).

Are you saying there is no implication in your statement that, in the context of the Iraq war, our Democracy is not working because our people aren't "educated" enough?
I don't think my reply was "overly" sarcastic, in fact it was very nearly serious, because that's basically what it sounded like you were implying, to me.


Hookups wrote:
It's spindoctoring at it's finest, pure and simple. I have no doubt that the organizations that conduct these polls are getting repayed by the beneficiaries (whetherit be the chickenhawks, greenies, kkk, whatever) in some way or another, and that ruins any and all credibility flat out.

Ah. So you're suggesting that Gallup, likely the worlds largest and most prominent polling organization, whose methodologies and numbers are peer reviewed around the world, is just doctoring things to make it look like the american people are in favor of the war? :rolleyes:
Nevermind that you have no proof whatsoever of this, you must believe WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE THIS INFORMATION FIT INTO YOUR WORLDVIEW!!!!! Right?

[HexRei]

Carley wrote:
And you know what else sucks ~ being pigeon holed. Neither Peter nor I have given anyone ammo enough to call us ‘right’ ‘wrong’ or ‘left’. Scott, you even know both of us. Nothing has “changed,” we just have varying opinions on an issue that doesn’t have any right answers. This is what makes the world interesting.

Yeah, I love it.
I'm pro-gay rights, pro-women's rights, anti-drug war, pro-environmentalist, anti-mega-corporation, anto-censorship, pro-freedom of all religions and yet because I believe differently on this one issue OMGZ WTF JOO ARE TEH REPUBLCANZ!!!! STFU COSERVA-NAZI!!!!1!!

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Carley

With the exception of Jason. He’s just a lunatic.

(^hehhheh JOKEYJOKEY!)

;););)



Hey !!!

:)

haha

[offers hugs]

Take care,
Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by booboo69


This is exactly what I was talking about. The results of this poll may well be accurate, but the question is misleading, and most likely taken out of context. The question may be "do you support a war to remove a dictator?", and the people being asked the question may be thinking of a situation of entirely different circumstances that what happened in Iraq (where preemptive strike wasn't an issue perhaps), but then the pollers could just as easily turn around and say, "okay, so all these people who said yes support a preemptive attack on Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein.

It's exactly why I don't understand why the left and Democrats in particular love to base their political strategies on polls. Polls suck.

It's spindoctoring at it's finest, pure and simple. I have no doubt that the organizations that conduct these polls are getting repayed by the beneficiaries (whetherit be the chickenhawks, greenies, kkk, whatever) in some way or another, and that ruins any and all credibility flat out.

I have noticed allot of emotion in your perspectives. What gives you this thought? Do you hope for it to be true or something? Just curious.

-Jason

[186k\sec]

I'm pro-gay rights, pro-women's rights, anti-drug war, pro-environmentalist, anti-mega-corporation, anto-censorship, pro-freedom of all religions and yet because I believe differently on this one issue OMGZ WTF JOO ARE TEH REPUBLCANZ!!!! STFU COSERVA-NAZI!!!!1!!

Im all that too, and in favor or justified military action, less government, capital punishment, and estate tax repeal, yet Im a RACIST,PINKO< LIBERAL , FASCIST WACKO !

:)

[HexRei]

All that proves is that there are extremists on each side. FRONT PAGE NEWs FOLKS!!!!

[Carley]

Originally posted by HexRei
All that proves is that there are extremists on each side. FRONT PAGE NEWs FOLKS!!!!

...oh shit Peter! :D

[186k\sec]

that was my point...
:rolleyes: what was yours?

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
okay, i'll rephrase my question. what are the facts that lead you to that conclusion. i will agree fully that our education system is in shambles, but i'm curious to know WHY exactly your finger is pointed... i could give a fuck WHO it's pointed at.

Well being brief. The NEA (Teachers Union) is the biggest influence on government schools. Hardvard University did a study a few years ago and the study concluded that the number one way to improve public education in this country, the most cost-effective, quickest, and cheapest way todo it is to reduce the power of the teachers unions. I have allot of information on the subject but I'm gonna stop there and not try to derail the thread. Mike should open up a new thread in off-topic :)

-Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Effendi

Not just you and Peter, I actually think that is the case with alot of folks on here.
I know you have your differences with Jason (Zupan) but truth be told, he never used to sound as right wing and silly as he "APPEARS" now. Notice I say appears because he really is NOT that way. He really is a Liberatarian, and if you discuss anything other than the same old tired bullshit we talk about here, one would see that, but because certain people have made it their mission to "Define" each of us. ALL of our communication has suffered. And I think I'm off to find a new set of folks that have NOT been programed to think that they already know what I believe!!


Becuase I support this military action to remove a dictator who is a threat to the US I'm all of a sudden a neo-con hawk for the time being? :)

Funny thing is this board never tackles topics that brush of my hard libertarian views.. I have always assumed why we never discuss other things as often as I'd like becuase I guess I think most of us agree on those but I could be wrong. Actually after this war conflict dies down I have some great articles that get into things that I think would be a sigh of relief from all this war talk and there not exactly political either. :)

Take care Scott

-Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by HexRei


Yeah, I love it.
I'm pro-gay rights, pro-women's rights, anti-drug war, pro-environmentalist, anti-mega-corporation, anto-censorship, pro-freedom of all religions and yet because I believe differently on this one issue OMGZ WTF JOO ARE TEH REPUBLCANZ!!!! STFU COSERVA-NAZI!!!!1!!

Perhaps you have Libertarian leanings Hex? Becuase you just described some of the very same things I advocate for and against.

Take care,
Jason

[Carley]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD


II have always assumed why we never discuss other things as often as I like becuase I guess I think most of us agree on those but I could be wrong.

Hehheh, me too ;)

e.g.

Topic: Mandatory Minimums

Everyone: Yeah, they suck.

Troll: DRUGZ KILL ASSHOLES!

Everyone: Whatever.

Topic: Gay Rights

Everyone: It's about fucking time.

Troll: DIE FAGS!

Everyone: Whatever.

Topic: Child Abuse

Everyone: Burn fuckers!

/end


...and wouldn't that get boring!?

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
okay, i'll rephrase my question. what are the facts that lead you to that conclusion. i will agree fully that our education system is in shambles, but i'm curious to know WHY exactly your finger is pointed... i could give a fuck WHO it's pointed at.

WHY? how the fuck could it not.
Hey Kristina if ya haven't noticed the very same people who fucked the damn thing up in the first place have the gaul to stand there and demand we give em more money to continue on with business as usual.


If you'd like a sample as to how fuckedup the system is Kristina browse this board and examine the cognitive reasoning skills employed by some of our education systems latest product.

Anyhow this is straying way off topic .

MS

[booboo69]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
I have noticed allot of emotion in your perspectives. What gives you this thought? Do you hope for it to be true or something? Just curious.


It's probably partly because I was raised by a very cynical mother (who was in turn raised catholic, and quickly realized how fucked up that was). :)

But it's also because I realize that the whole world is a political system. Every outcome to every issue, no matter what relation, can be twisted to benefit any political line in existence.

Regarding the polling organziations specifically, the one thing that makes me uneasy (and this really applies to anything) is that nothing in this world is for free. These polls are conducted at the request of somebody. Simply follow the money trail, and you can uncover more interesting factoids about the party(ies) that would stand to benefit from a positive outcome of said poll. Further impacts could them be speculated.

I'm sure in most cases, it's not really a huge issue, however, when dealing with things like "do you support the war", which can have a heavy influence on, say, the next presidential election, I would like the poll to be conducted in an entirely non-partisan, no-profit motive fashion, so as to be as accurate as possible (as would, I'd assume, all people).

The simple truth is, the world is not run by the smartest people or the richest people, but by the people who know how to manipulate the system to their best interest.

[Ram]

I think the American education system is the greatest in the world.

Typos are cool, but "gaul" refers to France. "gall" is synonymous with effrontery.

--Ram

[seattle science]

14 vs. 20 against this war? Haha, I smell something fishy here. I'd expect the ratio on this board to be closer to 7 vs. 250 against the war. I think somebody pulled a fast one and cast a few yes votes from their college computer lab.

[UrbanAssualtCutie]

Originally posted by seattle science
14 vs. 20 against this war? Haha, I smell something fishy here. I'd expect the ratio on this board to be closer to 7 vs. 250 against the war. I think somebody pulled a fast one and cast a few yes votes from their college computer lab.

or a lot of us have just grown emotionally drained by this whole war situation and have stopped participating in these sorts of discussions/polls and so have not cast our no votes yeilding the figures you would expect. This is the case for me at least.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Ram
I think the American education system is the greatest in the world.

Typos are cool, but "gaul" refers to France. "gall" is synonymous with effrontery.

--Ram
hehehehehe..

Gaul=France=effrontery. heh heh heh.

Yeah I was aware of Gaul/gall switch.. and chose to use Gaul purposely. but thanks.

;)
MS

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S

Anyhow this is straying way off topic .


not anymore

http://www.nwtekno.org/vb/showthread.php?threadid=53104

[Ram]

If you'd like a sample as to how fuckedup the system is Kristina browse this board and examine the cognitive reasoning skills employed by some of our education systems latest product.

[...]

Yeah I was aware of Gaul/gall switch.. and chose to use Gaul purposely. but thanks.


What about the lack of punctuation and proper capitalisation?

But that's mean. I'm just giving you a hard time. (: But I wasn't the one complaining about the quality of education in this country (which I think is terrific --- people don't appreciate the utility of freedom in current public schools).

I don't think it's a big deal if American/English is spoken and written properly, as long as the meaning is clear.

--Ram

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds


not anymore

http://www.nwtekno.org/vb/showthread.php?threadid=53104

shit K waddaya trying to do.. how am i supposed to work, fuckoff in the NWTEKNO war section AND argue with you about education at the same time..
heh
MS

[Mike S]

Originally posted by seattle science
14 vs. 20 against this war? Haha, I smell something fishy here. I'd expect the ratio on this board to be closer to 7 vs. 250 against the war. I think somebody pulled a fast one and cast a few yes votes from their college computer lab.

France effect.. people wanting to jump on the winning teams side AFTER the games over.

MS

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by kristinachilds


not anymore

http://www.nwtekno.org/vb/showthread.php?threadid=53104

Kewl.. thanks Kristina. I'll post in a lil bit, to get the discussion under way.


Take care,
-Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Ram

I don't think it's a big deal if American/English is spoken and written properly, as long as the meaning is clear.


I agree, especially on a simple message board. You might want to tell Cedwyn this opinion. Ced has been having a cow over it all..

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S


shit K waddaya trying to do.. how am i supposed to work, fuckoff in the NWTEKNO war section AND argue with you about education at the same time..
heh
MS i've dubbed you "the lovable prick"

so come on TLP! take you're time, i'm leaving work in 30 min and won't log back on nwtekno until monday morn.

[Cedwyn]

no bovines here, zupan. i let many typos/errors slide, because, hey...they happen. you, however, in addition to spelling 1 in 10 words correctly (typos notwithstanding), are forgetting ram's critical caveat: as long as the meaning is clear.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
i've dubbed you "the lovable prick"

so come on TLP! take you're time, i'm leaving work in 30 min and won't log back on nwtekno until monday morn.

Hehehehehe. :D

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
no bovines here, zupan. i let many typos/errors slide, because, hey...they happen. you, however, in addition to spelling 1 in 10 words correctly (typos notwithstanding), are forgetting ram's critical caveat: as long as the meaning is clear.

Usted es el único quién tiene el problema :)

[Cedwyn]

nein; der rest nur haben sie auf "nicht anschauen." keine wörter, keine mißverständnis....

[Effendi]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Cedwyn]

i hope you did not just imply that i am flirting with zupan....

lol

[TeknoAXE]

of course he did Ced. He thought it was rather obvious you were.

AXE

[Cedwyn]

well, let me assure you...it's nothing but insults.

[TeknoAXE]

Awwwwwe....Ced has a crush on Zupan! That's so CUUUUUUTE!

AXE

[Cedwyn]

if that's what passes for infatuation, then dajah and i have crushes on just about the whole board!

lol

[TeknoAXE]

Yes...undoubtably since Dajah is here on an average of 21 hours a day.

AXE

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Buttrock_Beethoven
Yes...undoubtably since Dajah is here on an average of 21 hours a day.

AXE

based on what, her post count?

*checks dajah's postcount*

*checks buttrock's postcount*

ahem.

[Mirko]

Originally posted by Mike S
Some interesting numbers I tought I'd share.
Conservative Republicans 99%
...
African Americans 49
nwtekno folks who bother with the "war" forums and who bothered to read this silly thread: 40.54%

[TeknoAXE]

Originally posted by HexRei


based on what, her post count?

*checks dajah's postcount*

*checks buttrock's postcount*

ahem.

That's not fair Hex! You know a huge chunk of her post count went out the window with her confessions thread. ;)

AXE

[Cedwyn]

just because it takes *you* that long to keep up on the board...

: p

[texas chainsaw mascara]

Axe:
Just because i have an uncanny ability to catch most people most of the times they are talking shit or being stupid does not mean i have to be here all hours of the day to do so.

the sheer volume of these posts, coupled with my handful of minions who send me links to note-worthy posts so that i can exercise some of my omnipresent bitchyness within them makes it really easy.

so uhm... yeah. fuck off.

(thanks cedwyn!)

[TeknoAXE]

You all need to relax and learn to see when the posts are made of humor. I'm actually quite amused that you felt the need to post on this thread to defend yourself.

Cheers.

AXE

[texas chainsaw mascara]

and i'm amused that you failed to notice that i was not defending myself nearly as much as i was just mocking you.

[TeknoAXE]

and I am amused that you are trying to save face now that I called you out and are trying to twist the past posts so that you believe you're right...yah.

AXE

[texas chainsaw mascara]

*tries to save face*

*yawns*

*picks nose*

*wanders off*

[HexRei]

lol. could this argument be any more petty? :P