Hell Freezes Over.

[Mike S]

3 statements (synopsized) by 3 leaders of 3 different countries made today.

Israel. Sharon. Regarding an Israeli/Palestinian peace plan:
Says Israel will give up many of the settlements.

Iran. Hatami. President. Tells his administration that constructive engagement and dialogue with the United States is in the best interest of Iran.

Korea. Kim Jung Il - North Korea drops all conditions it originally put on discussions concerning nukes and now says it will talk to the US about the issue of nuclear disarmament when the US wants & where the US wants.


Relevance.
Prior to our taking decisive action in Iraq any one of these situations just happening would have been considered a pipe dream.. all three at the same time.. a hallucination.


So.. All these major changes of heart happening now .. a coincidence?.. or geo political reverberations as a result of our actions in Iraq?

MS

[186k\sec]

LIP SERVICE..
ever heard the phrase : talk is cheap? I think the ass sucking is mostly empty rhetoric, derived from fears of possible pre-emption, but primarily an attempt to ease US concerns to avoid negative attention.

in the case of Kim Jong - I believe his come-about was due mostly to the fact China nipped off his oil supply for being all wacky..

[ZupanGOD]

Sharon giving up settlements?

I only see that possible if we can get Syria to cooperate.

[Ishkur]

Which we will.....through the barrel of a gun.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Ishkur
Which we will.....through the barrel of a gun.

we? even if your prediction is correct, i dont think canadians are really contributing anything to this effort but complaints.

[Carley]

Originally posted by 186k\sec


in the case of Kim Jong - I believe his come-about was due mostly to the fact China nipped off his oil supply for being all wacky..

Heh, perhaps. But wasn’t Kim Jong was ready for these talks before the Bush Administration was ever in office? I don't think this 'turn' is any surprise... it was only fucked to begin with because of a royally screwed shift in diplomatic ideology and the worst of all possible timing. All that ‘wackiness’ (:D) was mostly 'LIP SERVICE' (...and frankly, I don't blame em for it :p). Nice to see things appear to be coming back together; at least for now :)

[186k\sec]

All that ‘wackiness’ () was mostly 'LIP SERVICE'

Im not sure.

.. I see the hair, .... must keep eye on the hair..

;) :p

[Carley]

Originally posted by 186k\sec


Im not sure.

.. I see the hair, .... must keep eye on the hair..

;) :p

..omg :D

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
Sharon giving up settlements?

I only see that possible if we can get Syria to cooperate. which is rediculous since the only reason the hezbollah exists is to retalliate israeli occupation.

it's like pulling out your own hair then bitching about going bald.

[asslicking homophobe]

mike s: could you cite your sources please?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Originally posted by HexRei
we? even if your prediction is correct, i dont think canadians are really contributing anything to this effort but complaints.

lmao

[Mike S]

Originally posted by asslicking homophobe
mike s: could you cite your sources please?

I actually heard or read about them in several different places but all of them were discussed in segment one of yesterdays edition of all things considered from NPR.

MS

[asslicking homophobe]

hmm.. that sucks, 'cause i've been looking for articles about these things and have so far come up with nothing....

[kristinachilds]

NPR archives everything they air. go to http://www.npr.org and do a search over the last week for "all things considered."

you'll be sure to find something.

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
which is rediculous since the only reason the hezbollah exists is to retalliate israeli occupation.

it's like pulling out your own hair then bitching about going bald.

I thought that land was occupied by Israel when countries like Syria declared war on them. Talk about pulling your own hair and bitchin about being bald. :)

Take care,
Jason

[superkool]

your wrong buddy...let me tell you how it went.......

QUOTE
It is important to remember that, for many centuries, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims successfully lived alongside each other in the area called "historic Palestine". The crisis there today is the latest development in a conflict that began when the first Zionists arrived in Palestine towards the end of the 19th century.


QUOTE
After the Tsar’s Government in Russia organises massacres against its Jewish citizens, Theodore Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement, organises the first Zionist Congress in Switzerland. The Congress concludes that the only way Jewish people will be safe from anti-semitic persecution across Europe and Russia is if they have a land and state of their own. After much debate, Palestine is chosen as the location for a Jewish homeland.




and so the jews living there revolt, take over the land, and gobble up more of the land all the time(settlements) the jews(israel) were able to hold on to this land because of one thing, money and weapons for the good old U>S> OF A>

will israel give back the lands, not ever.......will we be in the spotlight for helping them...yes, as we should. there is no reason we should overlook the 137(compared to iraqs 69) failed un resolutions against israel. while sending them 3 billion a year to take more land and buy more weapons.

[Carley]

Originally posted by superkool
your wrong buddy...let me tell you how it went.......

QUOTE
It is important to remember that, for many centuries, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims successfully lived alongside each other in the area called "historic Palestine". The crisis there today is the latest development in a conflict that began when the first Zionists arrived in Palestine towards the end of the 19th century.


QUOTE
After the Tsar’s Government in Russia organises massacres against its Jewish citizens, Theodore Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement, organises the first Zionist Congress in Switzerland. The Congress concludes that the only way Jewish people will be safe from anti-semitic persecution across Europe and Russia is if they have a land and state of their own. After much debate, Palestine is chosen as the location for a Jewish homeland.

When you "quote" something, it is important to provide the sources you quoted.

I searched and found it for you:

http://www.syrianstudents.com/pages/palestine/chronology.htm


will israel give back the lands, not ever.......

Wow! That's a bold statement!

I guess we're all just doomed...

[superkool]

as long as we keep overlooking the mistreatment of israels enemy's and keep giving israel support, then yes we will be in trouble....you can believe that.


will the jews ever give up the land they tokk? no, cause the bible left it to them..lol

[Mike S]

Originally posted by superkool
as long as we keep overlooking the mistreatment of israels enemy's and keep giving israel support, then yes we will be in trouble....you can believe that.


will the jews ever give up the land they tokk? no, cause the bible left it to them..lol

Yup...as long as you make statement like that with out acknowledging the actions of Israel's enemies which bring on these actions .. you will be in trouble.
And what lands are you talking about.. the west bank and Gaza.. or.. as is usually the case with pro Palestinian types.. the entire state of Israel.

Hey peace can come to the Palestinians one of three ways. the Palestinians can except the deal this time.. Or not and Israel can expel their asses and build a wall or they can just keep fighting and pretty soon Israel will have had enough and make the war official.. And you just wont have any more Palestinians.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for the Palestinians.. they've been at this since 48 when the state of Israel was founded and. due to their god given talent for the lie, have today managed to get themselves some useful idiots here in the states. Not bad.

biggest mistake Sharon EVER made was not putting a bullet in Arafat's head in 86 when he had the chance.. what WAS he thinking.

MS

[superkool]

http://www.syrianstudents.com/pages/palestine/chronology.htm


mike, please read this and then tell us again how the jews own that land?

[Effendi]

Originally posted by superkool
will the jews ever give up the land they took?

in the interest of remaining politically correct:rolleyes:

It is the invading zionists who are the problem, not all "jews".

There are many jews in this country who do not support the articles of Zion. The reason that this is important is because by using the cover word "jews" you include everyone of that race in the genocide being carried out by evil sects of the race, the "zionists".

All zionists are jews, all israelis are jews, not all jews are zionists and not all israelis are zionists. If I didn't clarify this, someone else would, believe me.

It's really only a matter of time before the US get's tired of being israels bitch and begin deciding for ourselves who our friends are and who our enemies are.

I think it is funny how that fat pig sharon is screaming left and right to try and have the United States take out Syria while we have our armies in the region. But because unlike Iraq's Oil, Syria has nothing to offer of any value, and it is not part of the United States plan of Nation Building, we have basiclly told israel that we took out one threat for them (Saddam) but not to push their luck on offering American lives for anymore of their planned evil.

I can't wait for the day when America wakes up and realizes that israel is our enemy and not our friend.

It is my prediction that the world is going to FORCE the issue of a Palestinian State in the next few years, and the United States is going to lay out the plan. Israel will of course thumb it's nose at US and then the fun begins. They can only kill so many Palestinians and Americans under the guise of self protection, sooner or later, they are going to kill the Wrong American and all of a sudden America will realize what our forefathers predicted and what sooner or later every other country in the world has realized. Stomp or get stomped. The need to control the evil before it gets to big and out of control.

Throughout history it has happened at least 30 times and it will happen again. Everyone considers the Nazi's so evil, and they did carry out many atrocious acts, but there is a reason that (old) Europe feels the way that they do. There is a reason that German's and Russians each in their own times decided to put a foot on them. There is a reason why every couple of hundred years, some country or another comes along and puts them back in their place.

I realize that most of you believe I am Anti-Semetic, and that is just fine with me. Truth be told, I love History and am a avid reader. And there is just no doubt that it ALWAYS repeats itself.......Look Out, here it comes again.....lol.

Scott!!


Here's what George Washington and Ben Franklin said 250 years ago.
http://www.abbc.com/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm#washing

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Mike S

Hey peace can come to the Palestinians one of three ways. the Palestinians can except the deal this time.. Or not and Israel can expel their asses and build a wall or they can just keep fighting and pretty soon Israel will have had enough and make the war official.. And you just wont have any more Palestinians.

Lets review the "Peace process"

"Whenever we seemed to be having some success with the Arabs, Begin would proclaim the establishment of new settlements or make provocative statements. This behavior ... seriously endangered prospects of peace" Former President Jimmy Carter Quoted in Findley's deliberate Deceptions quoting Fred Khouri's Major Obstacles to Peace.

For the REST of the Story....
http://www.abbc.com/historia/zionism/index_pcprcs.html

[kristinachilds]

it seems to me that you don't have any sympahty for ANYONE in that hollow tin heart of yours.
now who's home was taken from whom? it goes both ways my dear boy.

the mandates britan put in place in the initial takeover of palestinian territory have been completely ignored. they are no longer treated like humans, no longer have rights, and haven’t for some time; these mandates were ignored even before the arab invasion of Israel.

the invasion of Israel was spawned from the USSR telling Egypt that Israel planned to invade Syria. the attack was a pre-emptive, but one with validity... as far as the Arabs knew. Israel wasn't exactly at peace with it's neighbors, and was asserting a bully-like attitude with the Arab world.

Now, if England and France came to you and said "hey, we know you live here, but you're going to have to leave because we're giving your land to my buddy here." <pause for your argument> "oh, you don’t' like it? well that's too bad. you really don't have a choice in the matter, and you're not welcome at any of our meetings that pertain to the usage of your land. find somewhere else to live."

you'd be pissed, too.

would you put your tail between your legs and build a hut somewhere? fuck no! you'd fight. diplomatically first (as Palestine did) and when that didn't work and the situation kept getting worse, with Israel's borders and power growing, you'd fight back using the only other means available to you. then your rights are taken away, you begin to be violently oppressed, and you're not allowed to own anything that would help you defend yourself.

Syria, like other Arab states, was upset and feared for their own freedom. It seemed as though Israel was gearing up to overthrow other it's neighbors, and that obviously posed a threat.

the Hezbollah, however, only formed after Israel began to occupy Palestine (current territory.)

Mike, you consistently say you don't have any sympathy for them, that they invaded Israel and got what they deserved, but it makes me wonder if you've looked further back in history to see WHY they invaded Israel. your opinion just doesn't make any sense.


edited for spelling

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Effendi


Lets review the "Peace process"

"Whenever we seemed to be having some success with the Arabs, Begin would proclaim the establishment of new settlements or make provocative statements. This behavior ... seriously endangered prospects of peace" Former President Jimmy Carter Quoted in Findley's deliberate Deceptions quoting Fred Khouri's Major Obstacles to Peace.

For the REST of the Story....
http://www.abbc.com/historia/zionism/index_pcprcs.html


Sure lets do..

"Whenever we seemed to be having some success with the Arabs...."

Fade in image.
Arab kid walking into shopping center and while he's screaming in Arabic "God Is Great!!" he's pulling a rip chord .. There's a large explosion. Along with the bits and pieces of human flesh there are nails and bits of sharpened mettle shooting through the air puncturing the flesh of people far enough away not to be killed by the initial explosion.
-Seconds pass-
A child cries standing over the body of his mother..her face blown away exposing the skull. A woman screams as she holds her dead child, a nail stuck through her eye having punctured the brain. A man walks around aimlessly, stumbling over bodies and parts of bodies. Occasionally he leans down to grab at something. He's in and shock...and looking for his missing arm....
Fade image out.

These are the people you expect Israel to negotiate with and live in peace next to?

Fucking animals.

MS

[kristinachilds]

and they haven't accepted any "offered" peace treaties because they don't recognize Palestine as an independent state.

yes, they also want the '67 borders, but it's not too demanding to be given your independence.

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S



Sure lets do..

"Whenever we seemed to be having some success with the Arabs...."

Fade in image.
Arab kid walking into shopping center and while he's screaming in Arabic "God Is Great!!" he's pulling a rip chord .. There's a large explosion. Along with the bits and pieces of human flesh there are nails and bits of sharpened mettle shooting through the air puncturing the flesh of people far enough away not to be killed by the initial explosion.
-Seconds pass-
A child cries standing over the body of his mother..her face blown away exposing the skull. A woman screams as she holds her dead child, a nail stuck through her eye having punctured the brain. A man walks around aimlessly, stumbling over bodies and parts of bodies. Occasionally he leans down to grab at something. He's in and shock...and looking for his missing arm....
Fade image out.

These are the people you expect Israel to negotiate with and live in peace next to?

Fucking animals.

MS ISREAL BULLDOZES CIVILIANS' HOMES WHILE THEY ARE INSIDE!!! THEY MERCILESSLY GUN DOWN PRE-TEENS WITH ROCKS!!

WHO ARE THE FUCKING ANIMALS????

so if you kill in civilian clothes youre a terrorist, but if you kill in military clothes it's validated.

cute.

it's also cute that you tell others to metion the violence that caused retaliation, but you convinently leave the very same out of your own arguments.

both sides have done wrong and BOTH sides need to make some sacrifices. it infuriates me that people such as yourself take such a stance.

this situation should have never occured in the first place, so if we're going to point fingers is should be at the 1917 british parlament.

get a fucking clue

[Mike S]

Sorry I have no sympathy for people that, among many other interesting "facts", teach their kids that that Jews are pigs, deserve to die and that to commit suicide by blowing themselves up is noble and a path to heaven.
No sympathy what so ever.

In fact if it were up to me I would round the people who teach their kids this stuff up ..Have them convicted of crimes against humanity and hang them all. Just to give you an idea as to the place in my heart I save for people of that nature.

You can go through all the moral gymnastics you like Kristina trying to understand trash like that.. I'm just going to look at you as if you've either broken your moral compass or lost your mind. In fact on this issue specifically..the more a person tends to empathize with suicide bombers the less likely I am to take them seriously in any matter. they've obviously got some mental problem and I would imagine will end up with a bunk mate in some state facility.

If you wanna waste your energy feeling empathy for those who have perpetuated their own suffering fine.. waste it.. I wont.

Most people deserve consideration Kristina.. but those who choose to act in absolutely barbaric ways and do so against civilians... then hide themselves amongst civilians in order that any retribution aimed at them will be visited on the civilians whose skirts they hide behind as well, or people that consent to that activity, shouldn't be given the time of day.. much less sympathy.

It actually makes me ill thinking I may even share the same air I breathe with these people.

MS

[Mike S]

No they don't Kristina.. they order them out.. if a person gets killed during that operation its due though them choosing to stay in the house.
Maybe if these people would quit sending their kids over as walking bombs they might keep their houses.. THAT'S what that shit is about you propagandized tool.

Wake up.

Yes Kristina if you are in civilian clothes and you walk into a mall and blow yourself up you are a terrorist. If you roll in to the west bank home of that terrorist searching for the bomb factory in you tank and uniform you are a soldier. If when you get there you return fire and kill the fanatic shooting at you ..its self defense. If the fanatic is wearing civilian clothes.. you didn't just kill a civilian.. you killed an enemy combatant ..wearing civilian clothes. Who is going to be paraded around by other propagandizing Arabs as a civilian casualty so fools like you over her will eat it up and buy into their crap.

Excuse me if some of us are awake when we're walking around and know bullshit when we see it..Its not my problem if some of you choose not too.

MS

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S
Sorry I have no sympathy for people that, among many other interesting "facts", teach their kids that that Jews are pigs, deserve to die and that to commit suicide by blowing themselves up is noble and a path to heaven.
No sympathy what so ever.fact? that's utter bullshit if i've ever heard it. and where, might i ask, did you get this "fact."

1. i have Palestinian friends, and they oppose all the brutality, both jewish and palestinian.

2. they were never taught in school that jews are pigs and deserve to die. that is taught in the extremist groups, not in schools.

3. israel has closed the schools, so naturally, there isnt' anything being taught in schools - good or bad.

You can go through all the moral gymnastics you like Kristina trying to understand trash like that.. I'm just going to look at you as if you've either broken your moral compass or lost your mind.i think you've lost your mind. trash like what exactly? here's some more for 'ya:

the infantada was organized in 1987 by civilian palestinians to rebel against the israali occupation. they rebelled by civil disobedience: massive demonstrations, general strikes, refusal to pay taxes, boycotts of Israeli products, political graffiti and the establishment of underground schools due to regular schools being forced by Israel to close. (you know, keep 'em stupid and eventually they'll be easy to control.)

how did the israeli government respond to this? they told the military to break protester's legs. they told them to beat them. they were ordered to treat all civil disobedience as a violent uprising.

what came next? suicide bombers.

In fact on this issue specifically.the more a person tends to empathize with suicide bombers the less likely I am to take them seriously in any matter... If you wanna waste your energy feeling empathy for those who have perpetuated their own suffering fine.. waste it.. I wont.i'm not in any way validating suicide bombing, mike, and you know it. my point is that they HAVEN'T perpetuated their own suffering - they've had more than enough help from Israel and the US.

here's something else:

"Palestinian activists in the occupied territories demanded that the PLO adopt a clear political program to guide the struggle for independence. In response, the Palestine National Council (a Palestinian government-in-exile), convened in Algeria in November 1988, recognized the state of Israel, proclaimed an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and renounced terrorism. The Israeli government did not respond to these gestures, claiming that nothing had changed and that the PLO was a terrorist organization with which it would never negotiate. The US did acknowledge that the PLO's policies had changed, but did little to encourage Israel to abandon its intransigent stand."

Most people deserve consideration Kristina.. but those who choose to act in absolutely barbaric ways and do so against civilians... then hide themselves amongst civilians in order that any retribution aimed at them will be visited on the civilians whose skirts they hide behind as well.first of all, the Israeli military acts in absolutely barbaric ways against civilians as well, but more frequently and in larger numbers. You've created a double standard by not filing them in the same category as arab terrorists.

second of all they "hide themselves amongst civilians"? they ARE civilians. civilians involved in a violent rebellion. they work from their homes. where the fuck else are they supposed to go? you want them to build a military base? it’s not that uncommon to live in a house somewhere in some town.

your words astound me. it's attitudes like yours that keep this violent circle in motion.

moral acrobatics? whatever. i have sympathy for both parties, but have disgust for both as well. why i lean toward Palestine is because every attempt they have made to make peace with Israel, Sharon slaps it away like a rotten fish. the bombings subside, and Sharon initiates it again by making more settlements or a "military" strike. He "says" he has offered peace agreements to Palestine, yet none have acknowledged Palestine as an independent state.

[Ishkur]

don't bother, Kristina.

Many people here have learned a long time ago that delusional asshats like Mike are far beyond reason. Getting through to him is like throwing a water balloon at a brick wall, thinking the wall's going to care.

The only recourse is just to smile, nod, pat him on the head, say "that's nice, Mike. Thank you for your thoughtful opinion" and let him carry on in his own little fantasy world view.

[kristinachilds]

Originally posted by Mike S
No they don't Kristina.. they order them out.. if a person gets killed during that operation its due though them choosing to stay in the house.
Maybe if these people would quit sending their kids over as walking bombs they might keep their houses.. maybe if they quit demolishing towns and making jewish settlements they'd stop strapping explosives to their chests.

--see, it goes both ways. your argument is faulty. it's a stalemate at best, wich leads *most* people to the conclusion that there must be something else in the equation

and NO ONE is "sending" their kids out. everyone makes that decision for themselves, and for the record, not all parents are happy about their kids blowing themselves up. quit propagandizing.

Wake up.:rubs eyes: oh what? was i sleeping? ooo, sorry about that.

Yes Kristina if you are in civilian clothes and you walk into a mall and blow yourself up you are a terrorist. If you roll in to the west bank home of that terrorist searching for the bomb factory in you tank and uniform you are a soldier. If when you get there you return fire and kill the fanatic shooting at you ..its self defense. If the fanatic is wearing civilian clothes.. you didn't just kill a civilian.. you killed an enemy combatant ..wearing civilian clothes. Who is going to be paraded around by other propagandizing Arabs as a civilian casualty so fools like you over her will eat it up and buy into their crap.:shakes head:
you still seem to be under the impression that the violence is propagated by palestinians and only palestinians. The violence escelated slowly and evenly on both sides, so at this point they're each retaliating each other.

you also seem to be under the impression that soldiers only "defend" themselves. this is just not true. boys throwing stones are shot. boys calling the soldier's names get shot.

i'm not a fool, mike. i know that there is a lot of propaganda out there, and to avoid being caught in the wake i do my own searches and talk to those i know who see (and fight) this daily. i keep an eye on human rights watches.

the only fool is the one who refuses to budge his stance in the light of new evidence... kind of like Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf

Excuse me if some of us are awake when we're walking around and know bullshit when we see it..Its not my problem if some of you choose not too. you know, there is another person i know that held your same opinion until she actually WENT to israel and saw for her own eyes what is happening over there, and talked to the people that live there. maybe you should take a trip and sniff out the bullshit for yourself.

[Hookups]

Originally posted by HexRei


we? even if your prediction is correct, i dont think canadians are really contributing anything to this effort but complaints.

Hex, you fucking rule.:D

[Hookups]

Originally posted by Ishkur
don't bother, Kristina.

Many people here have learned a long time ago that delusional asshats like Mike are far beyond reason. Getting through to him is like throwing a water balloon at a brick wall, thinking the wall's going to care.

The only recourse is just to smile, nod, pat him on the head, say "that's nice, Mike. Thank you for your thoughtful opinion" and let him carry on in his own little fantasy world view.

It's funny because it's true :)


I wouldn't be surprised to hear the Israelis were giving up "many settlements"...however, since many settlements were illegal, should we really be patting them on the back for it?

If Israel actually tried to pull back every illegal settlement, they would face civil war from the very settlers they are defending with their military. Everybody knows that. It would be far bloodier than Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Israel should pull back to the '67 borders. Everybody knows it.

[Ishkur]

Originally posted by HexRei


we? even if your prediction is correct, i dont think canadians are really contributing anything to this effort but complaints.

I meant that in the pejorative, assmunch. Certainly glad you can bring "us" up to speed on who and what the "coalition" really is.

[Mike S]

Kristina Carped:
"you know, there is another person i know that held your same opinion until she actually WENT to israel and saw for her own eyes what is happening over there, and talked to the people that live there. maybe you should take a trip and sniff out the bullshit for yourself."

Whats really going on?

Here lets look at whats really going on because from your p0ost i dont think you have a fucking clue as to whats really going on K.

Solidarity With Terrorists
By Brian Sayre
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 17, 2003


On Friday, April 11th, 2003, Tom Hurndall was shot in the head. Tom was injured in Rafah, a Palestinian settlement on the border of Egypt. As of this writing, four days later, he lies in a coma in an Israeli hospital in Bersheeba, in serious but stable condition, after a four-hour life-saving operation. Tom was a twenty-one year old university student from Manchester, who majored in photography. He was also an activist for a controversial pro-Palestinian organization called the International Solidarity Movement.

At the time of his injury, Tom Hurndall was armed, wearing tiger fatigues, and shooting at a Israeli Defense Force outpost, taking cover behind a nearby building between shots.

Those of you reading about Tom Hurndall in the American or British media might start at this last sentence. After all, you read a dramatically different version of events in your weekend papers, which probably went something like this:

At the time of his injury, Tom Hurndall was unarmed, dressed in the bright orange jacket of the International Solidarity Movement, and steering two Palestinian children away from a firing Israeli tank-mounted machine gun.

That sound better? The first story, which cast Tom Hurndall as an armed combatant, was based on a Sunday, April 13th report of the Israeli Defense Forces. The second story, which cast Tom Hurndall as a heroic rescuer of defenseless children, was based on 'eyewitness' reports from Tom's fellow activists in the International Solidarity Movement. This second story got picked up by Reuters, who wrote that the Israeli Defense Force critically wounded a "British peace activist helping Palestinian children cross a street under gunfire." It also got picked up by the Associated Press, who also claimed Hurndall was helping "children out of the line of fire." With the aid of these two newswire services, the second story made its way into almost every major American paper by Saturday, the day after.

One event, two radically stories. Two radically different Tom Hurndalls. But which is true? We simply don't know. Right now an inquiry is underway, but conclusions have not been reached. One might be tempted to prefer the International Solidarity Movement's version, just based on its popularity in the American press. But the American press has not told us all we need to know. Often Hurndall's organization, the International Solidarity Movement, has not even been
mentioned.

This media silence is unfortunate, for the International Solidarity Movement has been very active lately. Three of their members have been killed or seriously injured in less than a month; Tom Hurndall was only the latest. Another member, Brian Avery, was wounded on April 5th while breaking a curfew in the Palestinian settlement of Jenin. Milling with young men throwing rocks at the Israeli Defense Forces, Avery was wound by the debris thrown up by a warning shot near his feet. While Avery will live, some of the debris tore into his face, and he will require plastic surgery for his wounds.

The first incident was the most serious, and the most reported in the press - the March 16th death of twenty-three year old Rachel Corrie, crushed beneath a bulldozer in Rafah when its operator failed to see her. Corrie was attempting to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home, as the press widely reported. But most of the press (but not FrontPagemag.com) failed to report the presence of extensive tunnels underneath the homes of Rafah, used to deliver arms across the Egyptian border to the terrorist Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Houses involved in such smuggling are demolished as a matter of course. And when Corrie was killed, according to a Israeli Consulate media officer in San Francisco, the bulldozer was not even attempting to raze a home - just remove shrubbery used to hide a tunnel. Rachel Corrie died for nothing. An inquiry into her death found that she and other members of the International Solidarity Movement had engaged in "illegal, irresponsible, and dangerous" behavior. Indeed - by blocking the destruction of these houses, the International Solidarity Movement may have contributed to the arming of terrorists and the murder of innocent people.

[Mike S]

Members of the International Solidarity Movement have also been arrested recently. On March 27th, a counterguerilla squad of the IDF's Golani bridage was in close pursuit of a leading member of Islamic Jihad, Shadi Sukia, responsible for recruiting several suicide bombers, laying land mines, and sniping. They traced him to a building in Jenin holding an ISM office, but the coordinator, Susan Barcley, refused to let them in. Unfortunately for both ISM and the terrorists, the Israeli Defense Force was not requesting. They entered the office, found the hiding terrorist, and arrested both him and Barcley.

While the International Solidarity Movement coordinator later claimed she did not know Sukia was a terrorist, this does not excuse her refusal to cooperate with the IDF. And it most certainly does not excuse what the IDF found in a search of the International Solidarity Movement's premises - a pistol and a cache of Kalashnikov rifles.

Barclay was deported for her actions.

What is this International Solidarity Movement? According to their website (source: http://www.palsolidarity.org), the group was founded in 2001, and exists to "raise awareness of the struggle for Palestinian freedom." While they recognize the Palestinians' right to 'armed struggle' - in other words, they give terrorism against Israelis a pass - they claim that they personally only use 'non-violent' techniques to achieve their aims. Led by Palestinians working closely with American recruiters, the International Solidarity Movement invites individuals from the West to come to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and disrupt the actions of the Israeli Defense Force. The International Solidarity Movement seems to believe that the Western citizenship of these activists gives them the immunity to do whatever they wish within Israel - treating them as criminals or terrorists would cause too much controversy for the Israelis in the international community. Using this 'first-world privilege', the International Solidarity Movement has temporarily taken over Israeli military checkpoints, interfered with the arrests of Palestinians charged with terrorism, and attempted to prevent the destruction of homes containing tunnels for weapons smuggling. Since August 2001, the group has conducted several large, episodic campaigns in Palestinian territories and maintains a continual, low-level presence year-round.

If you only read the International Solidarity Movement's communiques, or the quotes of their members in your morning newspaper, you might be forgiven for thinking the International Solidarity Movement was being deliberately targeted. However, the International Solidarity Movement has been caught lying on multiple occasions.

For instance, on the death of Rachel Corrie, activists in the International Solidarity Movement flew to the media, releasing a series of pictures on their web site. The first showed Rachel standing off to the side of an advancing bulldozer, easily visible, shouting through a megaphone. The next, her broken, twisted body. The International Solidarity Movement used these pictures to imply to the media that Rachel Corrie was easily visible to the bulldozer's operator and therefore deliberately run down; the Associated Press released the first picture with a caption that read "Rachel was run over Sunday by the bulldozer that she was trying to stop from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said." The respected Christian Science Monitor made the appropriate inferences, writing that the picture showed Corrie "moments before" the bulldozer ran her down.

Other media outlets did the same, buying the implied context - but, after a couple of days, the truth came out. The first picture was taken hours before the second; immediately before Corrie's death, when she was obscured by the bulldozer's blade, no photographs were taken. In fact, she was killed by a completely different bulldozer, a model with much smaller windows.

One shouldn't be surprised by this deceit. Anyone able to stop on the way to help a critically-wounded friend in order to snap a couple of propaganda shots isn't above falsifying the facts of her death. But as the saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me." Which is why the Associated Press' article of April 5th on the shooting of Brian Avery is so puzzling. It reports, quoting another ISM member, that Avery was shot in the face just after emerging from his apartment building, having heard gunfire. But the same ISM member told a very different story on their own website, clearly stating, in an otherwise self-serving story, that the Israelis fired at their feet.

The lesson learned? When reading ISM reports of Tom Hurndall's injury, err on the side of skepticism. Newspaper articles that claim Hurndall was 'shepherding children to safety' are merely parroting the International Solidarity Movement's claims. After perpetuating so many falsehoods, they've lost their right to the benefit of the doubt.

But, to be fair, Tom Hurndall is not Rachel Corrie not Brian Avery, and we need to take a closer look at their story before we dismiss it outright. Do the Reuters and Associated Press reports contain any information which might substantiate their claims?

[Mike S]

Yes - but no. The Associated Press article does attempt to substantiate its claims with independent, non-ISM eyewitnesses, a refreshing change from the past. They quote both a Khalil Abdullah and a Khalil Hamra, who concur with the ISM's story. But neither of these individuals are without bias. Khalil Abdullah reported that, although not a member, he works with the group. And Khalil Hamra? A photographer on assignment for the Associated Press, Hamra works out of Rafah, specializing in pictures of armed Palestinian militants, the bodies of Palestinians killed by the IDF, and anti-Israeli protests. He seems to have enjoyed a particularly close relationship with the International Solidarity Movement, taking many of the pictures in the aftermath of Rachel Corrie's death and Tom Hurndall's shooting, as well as pictures of the ISM at anti-American protests - most notably, the infamous shot of Rachel Corrie screaming in rage as, surrounded by Palestinian children, she lights on fire a paper American flag. While the subjects of a photographer do not necessarily indicate his sympathies, we note from a 10 June 2002 statement by the Foreign Press Association that Khalil Hamra of Rafah was jailed for several days in 2002 by the Israeli Defense Force while working for Reuters in Ramallah. IDF spokesmen explained that the arrest was due to suspicions that linked him to terror activities.

A man who admits to working with a group of demonstrated liars and a photographer arrested for his links to terrorism - not exactly model witnesses. Not much better than reports from the International Solidarity Movement themselves.

On the other hand, do we have any evidence supporting the Israeli Defense Forces' claim - that Hurndall was armed, that Hurndall was firing? No - but yes. No direct evidence, but we can't deny the indirect evidence, the Kalashnikovs found in the office. This evidence shows the International Solidarity Movement is not nearly as committed to non-violence as they would like you to believe. This 'principle' of theirs, belied by their arsenal, has served them well in America, where the International Solidarity Movement has several branches.

The primary purpose of the International Solidarity Movement in America is to spread information about the group and recruit participants for travel abroad. Representatives of the International Solidarity Movement can be found in Ann Arbor, Boston, Colorado, New Jersey, North Carolina, New York City, San Francisco, Washington state, and Washington D.C; while not all of these groups provide contact information, several have their own recruiting websites and all actively organize for the creation a Palestinian state. Some, like Ann Arbor's Thom Saffold, have been supporting murder campaigns for decades. A former Baptist minister, Saffold first got involved in what he terms 'peacekeeping' by defending the communist Sandinista government of Nicaragua back in 1983. His twisted logic is apparent when he states that "the tragic death of our Jewish Israeli sisters and brothers is a result of Israel's repression" - anything but the suicide bombers, it seems. All the while he attempts to sent young people to the Middle East to aid terrorists, using the college town of Ann Arbor as his stalking ground.

Other branches of the International Solidarity Movement hide behind more 'mainstream' Palestinian support groups - the International Solidarity Movement in Boston hides behind an organization called the Boston Committee for Palestinian Rights, while the International Solidarity Movement in Colorado is a subset of the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace. These organizations use their more respectable front to funnel money to the more extreme International Solidarity Movement. For instance, the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace funds itself in part by directing donors to make their checks out to the A. J. Muste Memorial Institute, a tax exempt 501c3 organization in New York City which provides funding and/or office space to a wide variety of leftist organizations, including groups linked to Muslim terrorists.

The Muste Memorial Institute has adopted the Colorado Coalition for Middle East Peace as a 'fiscal sponsor,' accepting tax-deductible donations for the coalition and passing them on. Therefore donors can help undermine the security of one of America's staunchest allies, all while getting a break on their taxes. In 2001, the last year for which tax returns are available, the Muste Institute chipped in two thousand of its own money. The main branch of the organization funnels its cash through a 501c called, oddly enough, the Africa Fund - why concern yourself with geography when you can get a tax break? If you're not worried about savings from the IRS, they provide an overseas bank account in Tel Aviv.

Some of the International Solidarity Movement's tactics are old. In hiding their positions behind the rhetoric of 'peace', while fully backing the terrorist opponents of peace, they resemble 1980s organizations like the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES), set up in America by high-ranking members of the Salvadoran Communist Party and Cuban intelligence to support El Salvador's murderous guerrilla bands. This committee, part of the Soviet-controlled World Peace Council, also attempted to influence American public opinion through protests and one-sided disinformation, all the while fundraising for their guerrilla sponsors. Through their efforts, CISPES also won the support of leftist Democratic congressmen.But some of the tactics of the ISM are new. Their physical defense of terrorism on the front lines of the war against it is most disturbing - especially after 9/11, when America woke to the extent of the terrorist threat.

Unfortunately, the International Solidarity Movement's disinformation campaign has had a certain amount of success, both in America and in Israel. In America, the International Solidarity Movement has found a congressman willing to stump for it - Democratic Rep. Brian Baird, who has been calling for yet another inquiry into the death of Rachel Corrie; this despite the findings of the previous one, which placed the responsibility for her death squarely upon herself. And in Israel, the leftist wing of the Labor Party has begun to use Hurndall's unfortunate adventure to argue for the blunting of the IDF - the former Minister for Immigrant Absorption, Yuli Tamir, has called for an inquiry into the IDF's use of force. "The fact that these people come here for a good cause and are harmed bothers people," Ms Tamir said. But no 'good cause' hides terrorist recruiters in their offices. If the IDF had not come barging in, Shadi Sukia, arrested on their premises, could have arranged many more deaths.

When the facts are out, no one should be fooled by the International Solidarity Movement's attempts to turn Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall into martyrs. These people defended the most depraved type of violence - the violence of bombs in marketplaces, the violence of 9/11, the violence of dictators like Saddam Hussein. It's no coincidence that Hurndall served as a human shield for the Iraqi dictatorship before arriving in Israel. His claim, that he was in Iraq taking pictures for a college course, rings hollow - most young men don't travel to war zones for a few credit-hours.

If Hurndall lives, and is competent to stand, he should be tried for his actions by the Israeli government. The governments of America and Britain, so strongly committed to the war on terrorism, should support them, allowing the trials of Hurndall and future cases like his to proceed without interference and launching a thorough investigation of the International Solidarity Movement's activities on their own soil. By virtue of their Western origins and non-violent rhetoric, these radicals think they can get away with crimes others cannot. It is time to put this delusion to rest, and teach them the truth - a terrorist is a terrorist, no matter what their nationality.

Two Tom Hurndalls. The defenders of the peace call him violent; the harborers of terrorists, peaceful. Who will you believe?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Tell me Kristina.......Whats really going on?

[MO]

when the hell do you ever work...?
also, it's funny how this is an electronic music community board, but I never see Mike S posts anywhere but in OT/War.
I guess I should be glad that your "asshat" (I like that Ish) attitude hasn't tainted any other forums..

[Mike S]

Originally posted by MO
when the hell do you ever work...?
also, it's funny how this is an electronic music community board, but I never see Mike S posts anywhere but in OT/War.
I guess I should be glad that your "asshat" (I like that Ish) attitude hasn't tainted any other forums..

I read when I'm doing recordings and I'll post when I'm doing batch conversions.

As to the other forums.. I work with music day in and day out and this forum as well as some others gives me a break from it. For some people music is their hobby and they use it to get away from whatever else they're doing. Music is my job and I use my hobbies.. like politics.. to break from it and put my mind in a different place. Of course I COULD use one of my other hobbies.. like sky diving... but thats kinda hard to do on a daily basis. ;)

cheers

MS

[kristinachilds]

you're such a schmuck AND you've missed my whole point. one last post, then i write you off as a lost cause

palestinians (and those who fight for them) do use violence as a means for rebellion. no one is arguing that they're angels.

YOU on the other hand, paint the Israelis as angels.

WRONG!

as i said before, they have both done wrong and BOTH need to cooporerate. terrorism is bred when people feel they have no other way to defend themselves. this is not a justification, it's just the way it is.

SO

if you stop trying to break my arm, i'll stop kicking you.

i'm done.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by kristinachilds
you're such a schmuck AND you've missed my whole point. one last post, then i write you off as a lost cause

palestinians (and those who fight for them) do use violence as a means for rebellion. no one is arguing that they're angels.

YOU on the other hand, paint the Israelis as angels.

WRONG!

as i said before, they have both done wrong and BOTH need to cooporerate. terrorism is bred when people feel they have no other way to defend themselves. this is not a justification, it's just the way it is.

SO

if you stop trying to break my arm, i'll stop kicking you.

i'm done.


No Kristina I didn't miss the point of your last post. I don't do the equivalency thing.
To me that is just a way for people to avoid having to say one side is worse than the other. Sorry.. I don't play that.

I'm quite positive that the Israelis aren't angels. In fact I know it.
But.. they are nowhere near as barbaric, uncivilized and degenerate as the Palestinians have allowed themselves to become.
When you have a group of people that indoctrinate their children to hate. To teach them that the people that they are supposed to hate are less than human and then convince them the suicide and murder are the ticket to heaven.. their culture is shit.

Empathize with them?.. I don't think so.

Here's how you try and understand people like that - you walk to em and ask em what the fuck is wrong with them.


Anyway - I got your point Kristina. I just don't play the "they're all just as bad as each other " game so I can avoid offending someone.


MS

[Effendi]

.
They had a most interesting program on KQED channel 9 last night about the history of bombers in general but suicide bombers in particular. I really wish you could have seen it.

It covered the initial British Occupation of Palestine from the early 1900's until the 40's when the local zionist "BLEW" the British out of the country literally. Up until that time the Palestinians were just the local Arab population that never had a problem with anyone living with them it seems. But the radical jews formed a group ran by Menachem Begin called the Irgun. The FIRST initiated the idea of bombing and managed to drive the British out of the country with such bombings.

The last and Final straw for the British was the israeli bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html
The zionists proclaimed the jewish state of israel as the british left. So the Zionists TAUGHT the world how to be successfull using Terrorism and Bombing.

A few short years later the Algerians using the successful methods of the zionists managed to eventually throw the French out of Algiers.

So it is almost amusing to see you twist the whole thing around with statements like:
Originally posted by Mike S

I'm quite positive that the Israelis aren't angels. In fact I know it.
But.. they are nowhere near as barbaric, uncivilized and degenerate as the Palestinians have allowed themselves to become.

The Palestinians are only guilty of trying to survive. The very Birth of the israeli state was born of Violence. You should read more.

Scott!!