One American Stepping Up to the Plate...

[MO]

I appreciated this article for many reasons. Perhaps some people will identify with the emotions and concerns expressed by Mr. Robbins. Hopefully those who disagree with him will do so in a constructive and not personally offensive manner. Anyway, it was an enjoyable (well written) speech that I found quite inspiring.
I STILL BELIEVE THAT PEACE IS POSSIBLE WITHOUT WAR!

----------------------------------------------------------------
'A Chill Wind is Blowing in This Nation...'
Transcript of the speech given by actor Tim Robbins to the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., on April 15, 2003.

TIM ROBBINS: Thank you. And thanks for the invitation. I had originally been asked here to talk about the war and our current political situation, but I have instead chosen to hijack this opportunity and talk about baseball and show business. (Laughter.) Just kidding. Sort of.

I can't tell you how moved I have been at the overwhelming support I have received from newspapers throughout the country in these past few days. I hold no illusions that all of these journalists agree with me on my views against the war. While the journalists' outrage at the cancellation of our appearance in Cooperstown is not about my views, it is about my right to express these views. I am extremely grateful that there are those of you out there still with a fierce belief in constitutionally guaranteed rights. We need you, the press, now more than ever. This is a crucial moment for all of us.

For all of the ugliness and tragedy of 9-11, there was a brief period afterward where I held a great hope, in the midst of the tears and shocked faces of New Yorkers, in the midst of the lethal air we breathed as we worked at Ground Zero, in the midst of my children's terror at being so close to this crime against humanity, in the midst of all this, I held on to a glimmer of hope in the naive assumption that something good could come out of it.

I imagined our leaders seizing upon this moment of unity in America, this moment when no one wanted to talk about Democrat versus Republican, white versus black, or any of the other ridiculous divisions that dominate our public discourse. I imagined our leaders going on television telling the citizens that although we all want to be at Ground Zero, we can't, but there is work that is needed to be done all over America. Our help is needed at community centers to tutor children, to teach them to read. Our work is needed at old-age homes to visit the lonely and infirmed; in gutted neighborhoods to rebuild housing and clean up parks, and convert abandoned lots to baseball fields. I imagined leadership that would take this incredible energy, this generosity of spirit and create a new unity in America born out of the chaos and tragedy of 9/11, a new unity that would send a message to terrorists everywhere: If you attack us, we will become stronger, cleaner, better educated, and more unified. You will strengthen our commitment to justice and democracy by your inhumane attacks on us. Like a Phoenix out of the fire, we will be reborn.

And then came the speech: You are either with us or against us. And the bombing began. And the old paradigm was restored as our leader encouraged us to show our patriotism by shopping and by volunteering to join groups that would turn in their neighbor for any suspicious behavior.

In the 19 months since 9-11, we have seen our democracy compromised by fear and hatred. Basic inalienable rights, due process, the sanctity of the home have been quickly compromised in a climate of fear. A unified American public has grown bitterly divided, and a world population that had profound sympathy and support for us has grown contemptuous and distrustful, viewing us as we once viewed the Soviet Union, as a rogue state.

This past weekend, Susan and I and the three kids went to Florida for a family reunion of sorts. Amidst the alcohol and the dancing, sugar-rushing children, there was, of course, talk of the war. And the most frightening thing about the weekend was the amount of times we were thanked for speaking out against the war because that individual speaking thought it unsafe to do so in their own community, in their own life. Keep talking, they said; I haven't been able to open my mouth.

A relative tells me that a history teacher tells his 11-year-old son, my nephew, that Susan Sarandon is endangering the troops by her opposition to the war. Another teacher in a different school asks our niece if we are coming to the school play. They're not welcome here, said the molder of young minds.

Another relative tells me of a school board decision to cancel a civics event that was proposing to have a moment of silence for those who have died in the war because the students were including dead Iraqi civilians in their silent prayer.

A teacher in another nephew's school is fired for wearing a T- shirt with a peace sign on it. And a friend of the family tells of listening to the radio down South as the talk radio host calls for the murder of a prominent anti-war activist. Death threats have appeared on other prominent anti-war activists' doorsteps for their views. Relatives of ours have received threatening e-mails and phone calls. And my 13-year-old boy, who has done nothing to anybody, has recently been embarrassed and humiliated by a sadistic creep who writes -- or, rather, scratches his column with his fingernails in dirt.

Susan and I have been listed as traitors, as supporters of Saddam, and various other epithets by the Aussie gossip rags masquerading as newspapers, and by their fair and balanced electronic media cousins, 19th Century Fox. (Laughter.) Apologies to Gore Vidal. (Applause.)

Two weeks ago, the United Way canceled Susan's appearance at a conference on women's leadership. And both of us last week were told that both we and the First Amendment were not welcome at the Baseball Hall of Fame.

A famous middle-aged rock-and-roller called me last week to thank me for speaking out against the war, only to go on to tell me that he could not speak himself because he fears repercussions from Clear Channel. "They promote our concert appearances," he said. "They own most of the stations that play our music. I can't come out against this war."

And here in Washington, Helen Thomas finds herself banished to the back of the room and uncalled on after asking Ari Fleischer whether our showing prisoners of war at Guantanamo Bay on television violated the Geneva Convention.

A chill wind is blowing in this nation. A message is being sent through the White House and its allies in talk radio and Clear Channel and Cooperstown. If you oppose this administration, there can and will be ramifications.

Every day, the air waves are filled with warnings, veiled and unveiled threats, spewed invective and hatred directed at any voice of dissent. And the public, like so many relatives and friends that I saw this weekend, sit in mute opposition and fear.

I am sick of hearing about Hollywood being against this war. Hollywood's heavy hitters, the real power brokers and cover-of-the- magazine stars, have been largely silent on this issue. But Hollywood, the concept, has always been a popular target.

I remember when the Columbine High School shootings happened. President Clinton criticized Hollywood for contributing to this terrible tragedy -- this, as we were dropping bombs over Kosovo. Could the violent actions of our leaders contribute somewhat to the violent fantasies of our teenagers? Or is it all just Hollywood and rock and roll?

I remember reading at the time that one of the shooters had tried to enlist to fight the real war a week before he acted out his war in real life at Columbine. I talked about this in the press at the time. And curiously, no one accused me of being unpatriotic for criticizing Clinton. In fact, the same radio patriots that call us traitors today engaged in daily personal attacks on their president during the war in Kosovo.

Today, prominent politicians who have decried violence in movies -- the "Blame Hollywooders," if you will -- recently voted to give our current president the power to unleash real violence in our current war. They want us to stop the fictional violence but are okay with the real kind.

And these same people that tolerate the real violence of war don't want to see the result of it on the nightly news. Unlike the rest of the world, our news coverage of this war remains sanitized, without a glimpse of the blood and gore inflicted upon our soldiers or the women and children in Iraq. Violence as a concept, an abstraction -- it's very strange.

As we applaud the hard-edged realism of the opening battle scene of "Saving Private Ryan," we cringe at the thought of seeing the same on the nightly news. We are told it would be pornographic. We want no part of reality in real life. We demand that war be painstakingly realized on the screen, but that war remain imagined and conceptualized in real life.

[MO]

TIM ROBBINS: And in the midst of all this madness, where is the political opposition? Where have all the Democrats gone? Long time passing, long time ago. (Applause.) With apologies to Robert Byrd, I have to say it is pretty embarrassing to live in a country where a five-foot- one comedian has more guts than most politicians. (Applause.) We need leaders, not pragmatists that cower before the spin zones of former entertainment journalists. We need leaders who can understand the Constitution, congressman who don't in a moment of fear abdicate their most important power, the right to declare war to the executive branch. And, please, can we please stop the congressional sing-a- longs? (Laughter.)

In this time when a citizenry applauds the liberation of a country as it lives in fear of its own freedom, when an administration official releases an attack ad questioning the patriotism of a legless Vietnam veteran running for Congress, when people all over the country fear reprisal if they use their right to free speech, it is time to get angry. It is time to get fierce. And it doesn't take much to shift the tide. My 11-year-old nephew, mentioned earlier, a shy kid who never talks in class, stood up to his history teacher who was questioning Susan's patriotism. "That's my aunt you're talking about. Stop it." And the stunned teacher backtracks and began stammering compliments in embarrassment.

Sportswriters across the country reacted with such overwhelming fury at the Hall of Fame that the president of the Hall admitted he made a mistake and Major League Baseball disavowed any connection to the actions of the Hall's president. A bully can be stopped, and so can a mob. It takes one person with the courage and a resolute voice.

The journalists in this country can battle back at those who would rewrite our Constitution in Patriot Act II, or "Patriot, The Sequel," as we would call it in Hollywood. We are counting on you to star in that movie. Journalists can insist that they not be used as publicists by this administration. (Applause.) The next White House correspondent to be called on by Ari Fleischer should defer their question to the back of the room, to the banished journalist du jour. (Applause.) And any instance of intimidation to free speech should be battled against. Any acquiescence or intimidation at this point will only lead to more intimidation. You have, whether you like it or not, an awesome responsibility and an awesome power: the fate of discourse, the health of this republic is in your hands, whether you write on the left or the right. This is your time, and the destiny you have chosen.

We lay the continuance of our democracy on your desks, and count on your pens to be mightier. Millions are watching and waiting in mute frustration and hope - hoping for someone to defend the spirit and letter of our Constitution, and to defy the intimidation that is visited upon us daily in the name of national security and warped notions of patriotism.

Our ability to disagree, and our inherent right to question our leaders and criticize their actions define who we are. To allow those rights to be taken away out of fear, to punish people for their beliefs, to limit access in the news media to differing opinions is to acknowledge our democracy's defeat. These are challenging times. There is a wave of hate that seeks to divide us -- right and left, pro-war and anti-war. In the name of my 11-year-old nephew, and all the other unreported victims of this hostile and unproductive environment of fear, let us try to find our common ground as a nation. Let us celebrate this grand and glorious experiment that has survived for 227 years. To do so we must honor and fight vigilantly for the things that unite us -- like freedom, the First Amendment and, yes, baseball. (Applause.)

[Effendi]

.
Thank You for posting this most excellent article, The "right wing" group has done all in their power to try to shut down honest opinion, and WAY too much of weak minded America has jumped on the Red, White and Blue Bandwagon.

I can barely wait until the next election when we loose this Ass Faced Monkey from the white house (just like daddy) and gain some respect in the world again. Thank You for the posting!!

Scott!!

[186k\sec]

I concure - the notion that standing for what you believe diminishes your citizenship or makes you less patriotic than anyone else : is the lie of the century.. totally discomforting to recognize it is the intent of the press and consevatives to smother the truth and individual rights of free speech. for the sake of false unification... nothing could be more discraceful or devoid of any logic..

[bungle bliss]

Originally posted by 186k\sec
I concure - the notion that standing for what you believe diminishes your citizenship or makes you less patriotic than anyone else : is the lie of the century.. totally discomforting to recognize it is the intent of the press and consevatives to smother the truth and individual rights of free speech. for the sake of false unification... nothing could be more discraceful or devoid of any logic..

Which is why you mostly hear the right-wing or TV news-watching sheeple saying it.

[Cedwyn]

*wild applause*

mike, do you really, truly, not agree with his points regarding free speech and the constitution? is he in any way wrong about the policies of this administration?

[What time?]

When has the White House NOT try to sway public opinion. C'mon people, this is nothing new. I agree with Effendi on the Red White and Blue bandwagon, but then again what's wrong with that? Most people are too lazy to research the facts to establish an opinion of their own so its easier to go with the majority. Therefor you have your "left wingers" pissed off. I'd be pissed off too but what are going to do about it? Claim that the government and media is trying to muzzle you? Boo hoo.

[Mike S]

Snickers..

Yeah poor Timmy hasn't figured out that it isn't the government that pulled the plug on him at the baseball hall of fame .. it was the people that attend the baseball hall of fame.. and he hasn't quite guessed what they deal with clear channel is yet. See.. they very smartly were responding to the sentiments of their listeners and advertisers... its kid of a capitalist thing so I don't expect you .. and especially Timmy.. to understand.

See Timmy doesn't quit get why he's not Mr. popular. Timmy doesn't understand that the majority of us think he's an idiot. AND that when Timmy cant get work or Timmy isn't welcome certain places . its not because Timmy got his first amendment rights taken away.. its because we chose to exercise our right not to associate with fanatic trash and our right not buy from or support the activities of fanatic trash.

Timmy think his right to speak is accompanied by us having to listen.
Timmy is wrong.. again.

Timmy thinks that the majority of the people actually think like him cuz Timmy surrounds himself with other fanatic trash and lives in an echo chamber. Timmy is wrong. And as a way of our thanking Timmy for getting on our nerves and showing him just how wrong he is.. Timmy is probably going to be unemployed for a while.

Poor Timmy.

See kids here the moral of the story. You have the right to say ANYTHING you want. But just as actions sometimes have consequences.. so do words. So.. while you're out there screaming "Bush is Hitler" .. Remember.. the guy conducting your next job interview may just be watching you do it on TV.. and he may just think you look like Hitler.. not Bush. And I can promise ya that upon seeing and hearing Mr. and Mrs. Timmy going off on one of their Anti-American tirades.. that copy of Bull Durham got burnt.

Enjoy the unemployment line.. Say hi to Timmy for me too.

Bye. *waves at useless liberals*

MS

[Hookups]

Guess what, Mke...

If the majority is retarded, 2 + 2 still equals 4, no matter what they tell you on teevee.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
*wild applause*

mike, do you really, truly, not agree with his points regarding free speech and the constitution? is he in any way wrong about the policies of this administration?

Cedwyn.. what I see here is a pathetic liberal that is associating what his paranoid perceptions tell him are threats of having his right to speak infringed on with reality. He THINKS this is what as going on .. so it must be. I don't see a concerned activist. I see an arrogant, elitist scumbag that is so detached from reality that he actually thinks his perceptions of reality are reality and that we should take some whining nit wit like him serious.

Yeah Tim. Stand up there and tell us how your right to speak and criticize the government has been infringed upon.. I'm going to sit here and figure out how you speaking at the press club, having it broadcast on cspan and then having your speech broadcast WORLD-FUCKING-WIDE! on the internet equated to you having your right to express yourself infringed on and endangered.
Fuck you.

Kind get the context in which I see Mr. Robbins yet?

When Timmy opens his pie hole and no one listens other than to tell Timmy to shut up.. its not that he is having his 1st amendment rights trampled on.. its that his holier than thou socialist tongue clucking is really starting to irritate the people who have, through their spending, enabled Timmy to have the soap box he is standing on and preaching from. When we're tired of hearing Timmy's idiot clap trap.. we're going to tell Timmy to shut up in several different ways.

That fact that Timmy cant get jobs from private citizens or is having private citizens tell him he is no longer welcome is THEIR right.
They do not have to associate with him and when he expresses an opinion the majority of us take issue with.. to the point of finding he and his kind totally offensive.. he isn't going to find himself starring in many mainstream movies or is he going to find himself being the spokesman for many products going for mass appeal.. What some of you dolts don't seem to get is that the good majority of us look at him and you as not just people that voiced your opinions.. but people that took a position that was extremely offensive and immoral.. It would have enabled a murderer.

I don't think its quite sunk into some of your heads just what your position said to a lot of us about who and what people like Tim and yourselves are. To say your retail value took a hit is an understatement

Put it this way.. for a good many people in this country, myself included .. not only would they not support someone like Tim Robbins.. I doubt they would want to stay in the same room with someone so repugnant.

MS

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Hookups
Guess what, Mke...

If the majority is retarded, 2 + 2 still equals 4, no matter what they tell you on teevee.

Sure hookups..Cute
But in this case the majority weren't wrong. AND the majority choose to act.

And from where I sit you're still a stupid kid who's actually trying to convince me he has a basic understanding of the world when, in all probability, he couldn't find his ass with out a map.

I quite think your one of the most ignorant people I've ever had the pleasure of laughing at.

I enjoy your posts.. stupidity on your scale is quite humorous.

MS

[Hookups]

Originally posted by Mike S


Sure hookups..Cute
But in this case the majority weren't wrong. AND the majority choose to act.

And from where I sit you're still a stupid kid who's actually trying to convince me he has a basic understanding of the world when, in all probability, he couldn't find his ass with out a map.

I quite think your one of the most ignorant people I've ever had the pleasure of laughing at.

I enjoy your posts.. stupidity on your scale is quite humorous.

MS
Guess what, Mike? The history books don't always tell the whole story, much less the truth. Have you ever read Lies my teacher told me (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868?vi=glance)? I bet you have a flag on your front lawn...

And guess what? The majority never thinks it is wrong.

I'm disappointed with the hubris of your posts. If you dedicated yourself to being rational and objective you could offer insight, but instead you offer nothing but rabid nationalism.

You're probably just an insecure, overweight programmer who doesn't get laid.

If you spent more than 90% of your posts on nationalism you might be credible, but you don't, and that's why you're the Rush Limbaugh of Northwest tekno. Have a nice day.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Hookups

Guess what, Mike? The history books don't always tell the whole story, much less the truth. Have you ever read Lies my teacher told me (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868?vi=glance)? I bet you have a flag on your front lawn...

And guess what? The majority never thinks it is wrong.

I'm disappointed with the hubris of your posts. If you dedicated yourself to being rational and objective you could offer insight, but instead you offer nothing but rabid nationalism.

You're probably just an insecure, overweight programmer who doesn't get laid.

If you spent more than 90% of your posts on nationalism you might be credible, but you don't, and that's why you're the Rush Limbaugh of Northwest tekno. Have a nice day.

Yes and if your opinion was based on fact and experience versus stereotype, rumor and unstable emotions I might consider you a serious person.

If you knew anything about me you'd know that;
A. I don't own a TV
B. I read.. A lot.
C. Studying history and religion are on again off again hobbies of mine.
D. Basing my opinion on emotions -nationalistic or anti-American- is the epitome of ignorance to me. Emotion based politics is the domain of the ignorant. The Left. Why the hell do you think I consider most leftists the human equivalent of dog squeeze the country has accidentally stepped in...."ewww how do I scrape this off."

MS

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Mike S

If you knew anything about me you'd know that;
A. I don't own a TV

No wonder your such a close minded little sheep, there are tons of excellent programs on the history channel and the learning channel that might give you some accurate information for a change....

B. I read.. A lot.

The Hardy boys and Nancy Drew, while technically still books, do not "count" as informational reading.

C. Studying history and religion are on again off again hobbies of mine.

We shall give you the benefit of the doubt that this is clearly one of your "Off" periods.

D. Basing my opinion on emotions -nationalistic or anti-American- is the epitome of ignorance to me.

Yet that is EXACTLY what you do...........Geeze mike, Unlike you, we don't just believe everything we are fed....you littlle soft lamb....

Emotion based politics is the domain of the ignorant. The Left.

Yet in the other Post you starterd:
http://www.nwtekno.org/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=772822#post772822
You said:
Originally posted by Mike S
In fact if it were up to me I would round the people who teach their kids this stuff up ..Have them convicted of crimes against humanity and hang them all. Just to give you an idea as to the place in my heart I save for people of that nature.

Now that certainly couldn't be Politics based on Emotion..........You know, the "Domain of the ignorant"!!

or how about:
Originally posted by Mike S
Fade in image.
Arab kid walking into shopping center and while he's screaming in Arabic "God Is Great!!" he's pulling a rip chord .. There's a large explosion. Along with the bits and pieces of human flesh there are nails and bits of sharpened mettle shooting through the air puncturing the flesh of people far enough away not to be killed by the initial explosion.
-Seconds pass-
A child cries standing over the body of his mother..her face blown away exposing the skull. A woman screams as she holds her dead child, a nail stuck through her eye having punctured the brain. A man walks around aimlessly, stumbling over bodies and parts of bodies. Occasionally he leans down to grab at something. He's in and shock...and looking for his missing arm....
Fade image out.

These are the people you expect Israel to negotiate with and live in peace next to?

Fucking animals.


Now of course there is absolutely NO Emotional drama introduced in that political spew is there?
That might be so easily mistaken as the "Domain of the Ignorant"

Why the hell do you think I consider most leftists the human equivalent of dog squeeze the country has accidentally stepped in....
MS
Because so many of them are true to their hearts, something you wish you were, but could never be...#1

and because there are people like me who you HATE because we call you on your bullshit daily and it incenses you...If only little mikey were half as smart as little Timmy....who incidently has a multi-million dollar movie career while mikey is doing what.........Eating anything?.......dumbass!!

Scott!!

[ZupanGOD]

Mr. Robbins?

I loved his role in The Shawshank Redemption. It's too bad his radical politics might end him as an actor.

-Jason

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
*wild applause*

mike, do you really, truly, not agree with his points regarding free speech and the constitution? is he in any way wrong about the policies of this administration?

Maybe I havn't been paying close attention. Where was his right to free speech violated?

[Ishkur]

a couple things:

1: Mike, please shut the fuck up. You sound like a god damn fascist when you do all that fingerpointing tripe. Honestly, have you ever been able to from a single fucking coherent thought in that neanderthal skull of yours without mudslinging political stereotypes? You don't even pay attention to anyone anymore, you just hollar at the top of your lungs any comment that you get a whiff of disagreeing with you as "EVIL PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL SOCIALIST WAH WAH WAAAAAAH!!!" For fuck's sakes man, please for the love of all interesting conversation everywhere shut the fuck up. You are easily worse than the leftists you despise so much on the scale of "insufferable asshats annoying everyone around them with their senseless drivel".

2: With that said, Tim Robbins obviously forgot to understand the most important tenet of a free society. That being:

You have the freedom to do what you want. But others have the freedom to stop you.

So no, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Just because he has the courage to stand up for his views doesn't mean everyone else has to honour them. Companies don't have to hire you, restaurants don't have to serve you, no one has to do business with you, and movie studios don't have to star you in their next picture if they don't want you to.

What the hell is this, affirmative action for political minorities? Give your heads a shake. I know your country is feeling a lot like Germany circa 1933, but last time I checked you are fully and freely allowed not to have any dealings with anyone you wish for any reason whatsoever, including just simply not liking them..........much less not liking their politics.

And by invoking Godwin, this thread ends, and I lose. Have a nice day.

[186k\sec]

It's too bad his radical politics might end him as an actor.

nah, talent always prevails..& he's a kick ass director too...


*orders a copy of Bull Durham..*:)

When Timmy opens his pie hole and no one listens other than to tell Timmy to shut up.. its not that he is having his 1st amendment rights trampled on.. its that his holier than thou socialist tongue clucking is really starting to irritate the people who have, through their spending, enabled Timmy to have the soap box he is standing on and preaching from. When we're tired of hearing Timmy's idiot clap trap.. we're going to tell Timmy to shut up in several different ways.

Mike, seems you might learn a lesson from his plight.. afterall, you in show biz too.... no?

[Mike S]

Oh Ish Just because you're more polite than I to point out the obvious.
Our points were the same you just chose to leave out the obvious.
And that being WHY people act against him. His politics.

And Ish - Its fun playing with stereo types. If you dont like em. dont read em.
Cheers

[Mike S]

Actually that goes both ways. I'd have no idea if there are people that don't hire me due to politics.. but there are definitely people I wont work for due to them. And I'm very up front about it.

MS

[186k\sec]

Actually that goes both ways. I'd have no idea if there are people that don't hire me due to politics.. but there are definitely people I wont work for due to them. And I'm very up front about it.

i was talkn mostly about the fans, you know - the people who actually decide how succesful events are. > ever wonder if you're outspoken stance might enduce an attendance backlash?
personally I dont think music & political opinions mix, I would never boycott talent, nor abstain from opportunity based on difference in oppion alone .. that to me is precisley what is dividing this country and alienating us from the rest of the world.. tollerance is a scarce commodity, and lack of understanding abundant. . . hence my point.

[MO]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ishkur
a couple things:

Tim Robbins obviously forgot to understand the most important tenet of a free society. That being:
You have the freedom to do what you want. But others have the freedom to stop you.

Me - Perhaps, but how free is someone if their familiy and livelihood are threatened by those who disagree with their politics?

Ishkur -So no, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Just because he has the courage to stand up for his views doesn't mean everyone else has to honour them.

Me - No, but we should honor the fact that political diversity is at the heart of democracy. It is not honorable to punish those with diverse views.

Sadly, I think the meaning of democracy has been warped these days. For example, on the O'Riely Factor (a very popular FOX news show), Mr. O'Riely said in response to a Canadian panalist who criticised corporate America "well that's what Democracy means; we can buy whatever we want."
..thats seems to be a gross misinterpetation that many use to validate profits from a war for democacy.

Anyway,
what did everyone think of the part of the speech where Mr. Robbins explained his concerns about the way America turned toward war after 9/11?
I really identified with his crushed hopes that the tragedy could have brought us together but instead we were torn apart (nationally and internationally)

P.S. I am in no way saying that those responsible should not have been/be brought to justice, but it's amazing how the "with us or against us has" attitude has spawned an insaniity of aggressive miliratisitic foreign policy....what do other people think about this. ( I'm asking those who are wiling to discuss civilally)

Peace through diplomacy
and peace through music.
-MO

[Mike S]

Originally posted by 186k\sec



i was talkn mostly about the fans, you know - the people who actually decide how succesful events are. > ever wonder if you're outspoken stance might enduce an attendance backlash?
personally I dont think music & political opinions mix, I would never boycott talent, nor abstain from opportunity based on difference in oppion alone .. that to me is precisley what is dividing this country and alienating us from the rest of the world.. tollerance is a scarce commodity, and lack of understanding abundant. . . hence my point.


Hey if someone doesn't come that's their problem and their right to choose. I don't even factor that in when posting in this forum. For me its just as much having fun as it is politics so I guess might not look at it in the same light as someone else.

But I totally agree with you about the music and politics. I have come across several tracks that are absolutely slamming and have vocals that articulate in a very creative manner a particular political position. Some of which I totally disagree with..but as to the art ..they are wicked tracks. That being said I wont play them out - or at least in certain settings - because some of them can be divisive.
I'm not going to assume that everyone listening is appreciating it a as well thought out and put together track but may just fixate on the vocal and be offended or uninspired. A good example is the Markie Mark and Garth offering on Grayhound called "the price" . I think its absolutely sick.
But.. with vocals like "victims of democracy...." it will only fly in certain circles.

Hey I gotta go to Vancouver next week.. They'll Like it!!! hehehehehehe

MS

[186k\sec]

hmmm,
that is an interesting subject we've touched upon.. could almost be another thread, its all up to the listener, and dj - one person can play something, as much as the other can not listen to.. . .
Im not aware of that cut, is that Markie Mark Wahlberg? hell, you never know, Migs & Lionel, who would have thought?

[Ishkur]

Originally posted by MO
Me - Perhaps, but how free is someone if their familiy and livelihood are threatened by those who disagree with their politics?

It is against the law to physically harm or threaten someone period, regardless of their politics. That has nothing to do with freedom, that has to do with civil behavior and common politeness in a society as diverse as ours.

Me - No, but we should honor the fact that political diversity is at the heart of democracy. It is not honorable to punish those with diverse views.

So who's being punished? Yes, it is wrong if Tim Robbins is being physically threatened because of his views, and the people threatening him should be reprimanded appropriately. It is NOT wrong that no one will give him a public platform to disseminate his views, which is him getting greedy with his stance.

Ever hear the phrase "vote with your wallet"? It applies here. It applies everywhere. People make decisions based on personal politics all the time. You have the freedom to wage a personal boycott of anything you dislike. Say banning Walmart. You are depriving Walmart of the freedom to make money, and you have every right to do that. You do not have the right, howevever, to exercise your freedom in a grievously harmful manner, such as sabotaging a Walmart store or beating up a Walmart employee. You can stand outside and picket Walmart alerting other people to boycott Walmart products as well, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Back to Tim Robbins. People can't hurt him for his views. But they can sure as hell ignore him.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by 186k\sec
hmmm,
that is an interesting subject we've touched upon.. could almost be another thread, its all up to the listener, and dj - one person can play something, as much as the other can not listen to.. . .
Im not aware of that cut, is that Markie Mark Wahlberg? hell, you never know, Migs & Lionel, who would have thought?

Baaahh.. NO!
Markie Mark.. One of Garth's partners in the wicked collective.

MS

[186k\sec]

thats what I thought. Im just use to him refered to simply as Markie..

I just wasnt sure, sheesh, I mean even Perry Ferrell is a dj these days - even though I think its self proclamation.

ah, nevermind.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by 186k\sec
thats what I thought. Im just use to him refered to simply as Markie..

I just wasnt sure, sheesh, I mean even Perry Ferrell is a dj these days - even though I think its self proclamation.

ah, nevermind.

Speaking of which I gotta little thing HE did with Garth that never got released.. why i'll never know cause its prett good.

but yeah.. Anybody can call themselves a DJ, anybody can learn to mix.
But very few people ever learn how to play.

MS

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

We do not live in a utopian society, people have opinions, act on opinions and react to others opinions. That is how it's been since the dawn of time and that is how it will continue. fact of life.

This speech is just one big episode of whining. Hate to inform you Tim Robbins, but being a high profile person and expressing your opinion will lead to criticism of you and your family. That's how snake-like the media is. This isn't new or anything. Nor are death threats. It is unfortunate that people resort to death threats but it isn't unique to this topic. Empty threats and true fanatics are everywhere, on every side.

Effendi- Saying that people are jumping on the red, white and blue bandwagon just cause, is like a pro-war person claiming that you hold your view just to go against the bandwagon/majority. I'd say that's a fairly unintelligent view.

[Effendi]

.
I say that perople jump on the bandwagon because when this was still an idea in the infancy of being sold to the American public, the idea of "Attacking" Iraq was not a popular view. It took the spin masters months to "Convince" the American people of the need to remove Saddam in the interest of making America safer.

Even as the war wrapped up, president bush's popularity rating was at an all time high, Almost 70% or something like that. Now if he didn't even get 50% of the popular vote, yet he has 70% popularity after an unnecessary military campaign what does that tell you?...sounds like jumpers to me!!

Have no fear though, just as happened with his father, the American people will throw his monkey-ass-hat out!!

As far as holding my view to go against the popular "Belief", well maybe if I was young and in some type of revolting mood. But I could care less about the popular belief, I judge and call situations as I see them, and if you did a search on some of these subjects, you would see that we have talked about them for literally years on this board and I have always supported LOGIC when I thought I recognized it.

I never bought the theory that Saddam had any WMD that might threaten the US. Maybe israel, but I really feel it's necessary for SOMEONE in the world to try and keep the zionists at bay. I have never bought the necessity and I still don't. It is and was from the beginning planned by many for many reasons and actually detailed by zionists in the bush Administration.

President bush ran for president on the promise that he would Not be a "Nation Builder" yet that is actually the least of his actions. Saddam may have been evil, but at least he was a control in place. There just must have been a better way.

Scott!!

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Effendi
.
I say that perople jump on the bandwagon because when this was still an idea in the infancy of being sold to the American public, the idea of "Attacking" Iraq was not a popular view. It took the spin masters months to "Convince" the American people of the need to remove Saddam in the interest of making America safer.

Nice spin..

I like many other people who supported this campaign were relunctant at first. What exactly did the spin masters do to convince me?

Even as the war wrapped up, president bush's popularity rating was at an all time high, Almost 70% or something like that. Now if he didn't even get 50% of the popular vote, yet he has 70% popularity after an unnecessary military campaign what does that tell you?...sounds like jumpers to me!!

Go on I'm listening..

Have no fear though, just as happened with his father, the American people will throw his monkey-ass-hat out!!

Ahh so you got your hopes up? Most of are lives go on whether he is elected or not, but if he is re-elected in 2004, I hope you don't crack. :D

As far as holding my view to go against the popular "Belief", well maybe if I was young and in some type of revolting mood. But I could care less about the popular belief, I judge and call situations as I see them, and if you did a search on some of these subjects, you would see that we have talked about them for literally years on this board and I have always supported LOGIC when I thought I recognized it.

Actually I'm probaly right there with you when popular belief is subjective and based on emotion I'll always try to ignore it and consider it irrlevant to the truth, but when something is quite clear and based on logic, reason and those damn facts it's quite hard not to take notice, realize it, and deny it.

I never bought the theory that Saddam had any WMD that might threaten the US. Maybe israel, but I really feel it's necessary for SOMEONE in the world to try and keep the zionists at bay. I have never bought the necessity and I still don't. It is and was from the beginning planned by many for many reasons and actually detailed by zionists in the bush Administration.

[sighs]

President bush ran for president on the promise that he would Not be a "Nation Builder" yet that is actually the least of his actions. Saddam may have been evil, but at least he was a control in place. There just must have been a better way.

Scott!!

Well actually Scott I was against the idea as well untill Sept. 11th occured and like milions upon millions of Americans it changed my thinking on foriegn policy.

Take care Scott,
Jason

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
Well actually Scott I was against the idea as well untill Sept. 11th occured and like milions upon millions of Americans it changed my thinking on foriegn policy

exactly what i was going to say.

Effendi- My analogy was that you slung that first statement like a "hater" just trying make it seem like we're sheep. There's sheep on both sides, it's not unique to pro-war people. I like zupangod opposed the war at first but was swayed by mounting information which gave me the ability to make my own conjectures of the situation. As far as all that zionist talk you spew out, it's hard after reading many of your fanatical rants to take you seriously anymore. I understand where you're coming from somewhat, but if your trying to sway peoples opinion i'd go about it in a little more constuctive manner than slating them like a neo-nazi. Not saying you are by any means but your statements now and again easily border on such stereotypes.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Sire

I like zupangod opposed the war at first but was swayed by mounting information which gave me the ability to make my own conjectures of the situation.

And THAT my friend is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to "Spin" that changes peoples minds.

I wonder if you might be so kind as to list out the realities that so changed your minds.

Please keep in mind that there is NO connection between 9-11 and Saddam.

I appreciate (more than you know) the fact that people like you are able to read the situation and judge for yourselves. What upsets me is the people who jump on the bandwagon because either "All muslim's are Terrorists" or because we are told that Saddam had WMD, among a miriad of other lies we created to justify this war.

Just the fact that Saddam was a "Bad man" does NOT Justify the military action we have taken. I'm sorry if you disagree but it just doesn't. The nature of all men in power is evil. Saddam might have been a little worse than others but it does not justify our actions.

You said yourself that the events of 9-11 changed your thinking on our foreign policy, but I ask you again what does that have to do with Iraq?

And I am curious as to how familiar you or any of us for that matter really were with foreign policy prior to 9-11. If you can honestly tell me that you have NOT allowed fear and spin to affect your rational decision making in regards to others around the world, then I will sit down.

As far as all that zionist talk you spew out, it's hard after reading many of your fanatical rants to take you seriously anymore.

Well OK.....I guess I owe that to mike and zupan and SS with all their "joos" comments. But of course YOU are NOT affected by spin so of course you read what I said right?.....rather than the sarcasm they always add everytime I bring up a point they are incapable of defending.

By your own words, you are capable of being "swayed by mounting information which gave me the ability to make my own conjectures of the situation. ".......Right?

So therefore, I'm sure that you have done your reading on the Genocide being carried out by the israeli's and have made your own judgements on what is right or wrong.

Or were you swayed by the constant sarcasm displayed by those incapable of disputing facts I present........hmmmmmmm

I understand where you're coming from somewhat, but if your trying to sway peoples opinion i'd go about it in a little more constuctive manner than slating them like a neo-nazi.

I'm sorry that I'm not very good at sugar coating the facts, but that shouldn't be a problem for someone wise enough to consider all the FACTS and make a wise decision....Right?

Not saying you are by any means but your statements now and again easily border on such stereotypes.

I hear you, and I'm sure you are correct. Ignorance breeds fear. And any statement that is made that is not "Politically correct" in support of the current administration is so easily labeled "Anti-Semetic" or "Anti-American". I have heard them all. But I have faith that there really ARE many folks that really are able to sort out the facts and make a truely wise decision.

I suppose we shall see in the next election. History ALWAYS repeats itself.....say bye bye bushie!!

Scott!!

[Mike S]

To give you all yet a different "spin" on the situation.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/whats_new/statement_2003_04_11.htm

MS

[Effendi]

Dear Friend:

We have received thousands of letters, e-mails, and phone calls about the cancellation of the Bull Durham events scheduled for April 26-27. Thank you for sharing your feelings with us.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is a very special place - a national treasure - and my responsibility is to protect it. Politics has no place in The Hall of Fame. There was a chance of politics being injected into The Hall during these sensitive times, and I made a decision to not take that chance. But I inadvertently did exactly what I was trying to avoid. With the advantage of hindsight, it is clear I should have handled the matter differently.

I am sorry I didn't pick up the phone to have a discussion with Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon rather than sending them a letter.

We are so lucky to have Baseball - a game that unites us as Americans. The events of the past week show us all that The Game burns brighter than ever and continues to stir passions in many people.

Our wish is that every American will visit Cooperstown and join us in celebrating Baseball, our national pastime and the greatest game of all.

My Best Wishes,

Dale Petroskey
President

[Mike S]

The money quote was this I thought..

"Politics has no place in The Hall of Fame. There was a chance of politics being injected into The Hall during these sensitive times, and I made a decision to not take that chance. But I inadvertently did exactly what I was trying to avoid. With the advantage of hindsight, it is clear I should have handled the matter differently."

Hardly sounds like a conspiracy to silence Mr. Robbins orchestrated by the government.

MS

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Originally posted by Effendi

# 1 You said yourself that the events of 9-11 changed your thinking on our foreign policy, but I ask you again what does that have to do with Iraq?

# 2 And I am curious as to how familiar you or any of us for that matter really were with foreign policy prior to 9-11. If you can honestly tell me that you have NOT allowed fear and spin to affect your rational decision making in regards to others around the world, then I will sit down.

# 3 By your own words, you are capable of being "swayed by mounting information which gave me the ability to make my own conjectures of the situation. ".......Right?

# 4 So therefore, I'm sure that you have done your reading on the Genocide being carried out by the israeli's and have made your own judgements on what is right or wrong.

#5 Or were you swayed by the constant sarcasm displayed by those incapable of disputing facts I present........hmmmmmmm

# 6 I'm sorry that I'm not very good at sugar coating the facts, but that shouldn't be a problem for someone wise enough to consider all the FACTS and make a wise decision....Right?


# 7 I hear you, and I'm sure you are correct. Ignorance breeds fear. And any statement that is made that is not "Politically correct" in support of the current administration is so easily labeled "Anti-Semetic" or "Anti-American". I have heard them all. But I have faith that there really ARE many folks that really are able to sort out the facts and make a truely wise decision.


# 1. Iraqi occupation of Kuwait and the ability to forge documents. There's a reason why Kuwait doesn't accept i.d.'s and what not before 1991. In my opinion I would not doubt that Saddam has aided and provided sanctity for terrorists, as confirmed by Abu Nidal or Vidal (sp?) and that guy just found the other day. Saddam outright encouraged terrorism around the world in response to the US invasion, it would have been different if he only threatened american soil and americans but he chose to threaten people who had no affiliation. Did we directly threaten the innocent people of Iraq? NO. Innocent people were hurt but not intentionally.

#2. I wasn't really that familiar other than the fact that I felt the US meddled a bit too much in the business of other countries, frankly, it pissed me off how we pressed our views on the entire world. It seemed that at every conflict we had to butt in and try and take over. It still pisses me off how we have a "what we say is the way it goes" attitude. Make note: I've always been opposed to terrorism and genocide, regardless of who it supports. I have no problem admitting that it did hit me a little harder when it occured so close to home, as a result, I felt more need (already had it) to stop horrific actions such as 9-11 on and off american soil. I also feel that instead of the US fighting terrorism directed at only us we should work together with the rest of the world to stop terrorism everywhere. I'll get to israel/palestine in a minute.

#3. Did someone say sarcasm? layin' it on pretty thick right there, huh? Maybe I didn't wordthat properly but I don't take everything I am given as true, i've always tried to sift through the bullshit and figure what the facts are.

#4. As far as Israel goes, I don't think the US should even be involved in that mess. For how much the US tries to act like they're trying to help with the peace, we have given and continue to give Israel an insane amount of support. I don't like Israel as a country, simple as that. The countries actions are walking hypocracy, how they complain about being victim to the terrorism of innocent peole yet they kill innocent palestinians. And Palestinians use of terrorism sickens me. The whole issue of israel/palestine sickens me, this confirms why I believe in a god but will never choose a religion. It is truly just a cluster bomb against peace.

#5. I don't form any beliefs from the posts that I read on NWTekno. I read about topics when i am curious, if I don't like listening to music at the time I'll turn on some talk radio, I don't really have a specific station as i know there all biased. I talk, discuss, and argue with my dad who is quite knowledgable yet still biased. My Iranian (born and raised) friend who has a bachelors in Political Science (UW) and is attaining his masters/phd (or whatever) tells me his perspective and as far as i can tell, the least biased one I have heard. No one is of any credibility on NwTekno for me to actually be like "man, that guys right, i'm going to believe what he says". It's just fun to read peoples opinions and discuss.

#6. Agreed. Just saying that it's hard to sit and read your post when your ranting. Sometimes I just skip them.

#7. agreed. I retract that statement. Could you please explain without getting into conspiracy theory how the Zionists are behind everything bad? Present the facts you talk about which provide undeniable proof that one can only retort with sarcasm. It seems to me that the Zionists you speak of are just Jewish radicals that do not represent the whole of Zionism or Hebrew much like the Muslim/Islamic terrorists which are extremists do not represent the whole of Muslim/Islam. Should we be just as concerned about extreme Zionists as we are of terrorists? that makes sense.

[Effendi]

.
I am not going to dispute what you say just to argue, I would respectfully return thought on a few points.

Originally posted by Sire

# 1. Iraqi occupation of Kuwait and the ability to forge documents.

Anybody can and anybody does forge documents....perfect ones. especially the more advanced intelligences around the world like CIA and Mossad. To this day there are six individuals alive and well in Egypt who the US Government says hijacked those planes. There pictures and names arer still on Gov websites as the perpetrators of that crime but their identities were stolen. The only TRUTH we know about 9-11 is that SOMEONE directed someone to committ a terrible act. There is no doubt that 19 men from that part of the world carried it out. My point is that ID means little in this world. Anyone can be anyone.
Yes Saddam haqrbored some bad dudes, and yes he did everything in his power to try to keep his power including tapping into islamic power who he has always had an issue with anyway.

#2. Fully agreed, just much better said than I.


#3. but I don't take everything I am given as true, i've always tried to sift through the bullshit and figure what the facts are.

Thank You, I think one of my issues with this board is that because I present some issues that I believe hold validity regardless of whether I believe all of the words written. Unfortunately I get called to task on ALL I help present.

#4. Very well put!!

#5. It's just fun to read peoples opinions and discuss.

Yea, sometimes the discussions get deeper than they should though and it gets incredibly easy to get pigeonholed.

#6. Lol...sorry, call me abit anal, but I tend to rant and rave too much. Mike calls me a fanatic, jason calls me a radical, I just like to get my point across. Some people require more proof than others. But yea I need to shut up sometimes.

#7. Could you please explain without getting into conspiracy theory how the Zionists are behind everything bad?

Trick question...you had to say zionism, it's easy to defend loyal American jews, it is impossable to defend zionists.
Are you familiar with zionism?
http://www.abbc.com/islam/english/toread/zionfrau.htm
If you ask a Palestinian do they think that zionist are behind everything bad they would of course answer yes.
As an American, I think that what israel and Palestine do should be between those two countries and people as it has been off and on for thousands of years. I agree that the US is WAY out of line by financing one side and not the other based on religeous preference.
The Origins of the israeli zionist nation are a bunch of Terrorists themselves.
My motto has ALWAYS been (with of course the exception of protecting American Soil) NO More American Lives!! No More American Money!!. This goes for israel and anyone else for that matter, using MY TAX DOLLARS to kill someone I don't take issue with.

Before israel we had NO enemies in the middle east!!

I get called a conspiracist, but what I present is what I see as the truth. I accept and believe that it may not be the truth for others.


It seems to me that the Zionists you speak of are just Jewish radicals that do not represent the whole of Zionism or Hebrew much like the Muslim/Islamic terrorists which are extremists do not represent the whole of Muslim/Islam.

There is a huge difference between zionists and the rest of the hebrew jews in the world.
The third point of the very first zionist protochol clearly labels the idea:
3. It must be noted that men with bad instincts are more in number than the good, and therefore the best results in governing them are attained by violence and terrorisation, and not by academic discussions
read for yorself...
http://www.abbc.com/protocols/indexen.htm

It is a thought process designed to seperate and use extreme violence in order to do so.
Read about it, and then please judge for yourself is this what Americans are all about.
Are these the rules we wish to adopt to ensure that (as our constitution states) that all men should be equal?

"hopes off soap box"...you get my drift

Should we be just as concerned about extreme Zionists as we are of terrorists?
Very much so, It is my opinion that we have already seen their handiwork around the world. Some operations we know about, some still under investigation.
I just don't want America Involved.

It is NOT our business and we are making a huge mistake by moving as we are around the world.

Scott!!

[Cedwyn]

i wanna play!

sire, if this is your opinion: I wasn't really that familiar other than the fact that I felt the US meddled a bit too much in the business of other countries, frankly, it pissed me off how we pressed our views on the entire world. It seemed that at every conflict we had to butt in and try and take over. It still pisses me off how we have a "what we say is the way it goes" attitude. Make note: I've always been opposed to terrorism and genocide, regardless of who it supports. I have no problem admitting that it did hit me a little harder when it occured so close to home, as a result, I felt more need (already had it) to stop horrific actions such as 9-11 on and off american soil. I also feel that instead of the US fighting terrorism directed at only us we should work together with the rest of the world to stop terrorism everywhere. I'll get to israel/palestine in a minute.

then it seems incongruous to me to support the iraqi war. can you explain a little more?

i'm also curious about this: No one is of any credibility on NwTekno for me to actually be like "man, that guys right, i'm going to believe what he says". It's just fun to read peoples opinions and discuss.

given that you (and I) are not likely to have too much first-hand, direct experience with middle eastern affairs, i wonder just what you do deem to be "credible" sources. given the overwhelming amount of spin in this charade, why should effendi be any less credible than anyone else discussing the issue?

and effendi - you had bloody well better not shut up! : p

[Effendi]

.
At 8:15 Monday Morning Today Show host Mat Lauer introduced the controversy that has been kicked up by the cancellation of the 15th anniversary of Bull Durham at the Baseball Hall of Fame.

In a letter made public on Wednesday - Dale Petroskey, the President of the Hall suggested that his venue was not the appropriate venue for a highly charged political expression.

Lauer then introduced Tim Robbins, who along with his wife Susan Sarandon, had had their initiations revoked. Lauer quizzed Robbins on free speech, and pointedly asked Robbins if he had planned to use the Hall of Fame event as a platform for a political statement. Robbins said 'of course not.'

The discussion went back in forth for a few minutes, with Lauer being neither accommodating nor confrontational. And Robbins' responses were equally measured. But Robbins did end up saying things that have hardly been heard before since the war began. "The message is if you speak out against this administration you can and will be punished" Robbins explained.

"We're sending out messages on an almost daily basis that they have no right to protest against this President" said Robbins. To which Lauer responded with a question about the Dixie Chicks and their controversial comments against the President. Robbins responded - pointing to the fact that the protest and banning of the Dixie Chicks was by Clear Channel Radio and it's connection with the Bush Administration. This conversation was unheard of in the current environment.

Robins was talking serious politics on a morning chat show - and clearly hackles went up. By 8:24 Robins was explaining "We're fighting for freedom for the Iraqi people right now so that they can have freedom of speech, yet we're telling our own citizens they have to be quiet"

Lauer could have called it quits there -but he went on "When you see pictures of Iraqi's dancing and celebrating -does it change your mind?" "No" Said Robbins - "I'm ecstatic that they feel this freedom, I hope we have the resolve to get in there and make it work."

It was at this point that something happened that has perhaps never happened before in the history of morning television.

The music swelled under Robbins... Mid-sentence answering a question that had been asked just 10 seconds earlier... "We have a terrible track record" said Robbins, clearly not able to hear that music was coming up to literally 'play him off the stage'.

The camera cut to a wide shot. Lauer was leaning in and very much in conversation. Either Lauer was ignoring what must have been the deluge of invectives in his earpiece, or he just determined that he wasn't finished with this line of questioning.

But the music ended. The bumper music ended and the studio was in the two shot as Robbins said..."It's for some reason not in our best interest to keep it going and pursue it to the next level." Lauer nodded, and the camera faded to black as Robbins - mid sentence - had his microphone turned down.

A conversation about free speech. An anchor asking reasonable questions. A guest responding in equally reasonable tones. No attempt to close out the discussion - to say "Well thank you Tim". This was not a filibuster. Robbins was not hogging the spotlight.

Someone in the control room simply decided that it was time to pull the plug. And without grace or ceremony, or even the face saving of letting Lauer say "We're out of time" as morning shows do on so many occasions.

A conversation about free speech and free expression was cut off mid sentence as the network went to black.

Television history was made, as million of Americans got to watch in real time just how powerful and inescapable censorship can be. Robbins wasn't revealing troop locations, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Remember the war has been won - by all accounts. He was discussing freedom, free speech, and why his appearance has been canceled at the Baseball Hall of Fame. NBC should invite him back and let him finish his thought - or admit at least who was on the phone to master control demanding that they pull the plug.

http://www.rense.com/general37/dark.htm

[Mike S]

http://www.drudgereport.com/saran.htm


"At 9 PM in Gotham, Sarandon trailed even the WB network's BLACK SASH [3.5/5], with a 3.4 rating/5 share -- the lowest seen for CBS on Sunday night in recent memory. "

[Mike S]

Oh Noooooooo!
Does that mean everytime I'm listening to some interview on NPR and the interviewee gets cut off due to time constraints its censorship - or - when there's a call in guest on a talk show and they get cut off because the bumper music is coming up ad its time to pay the bills (cut to a commercial)..its censorship? Or is only censorship when Robbins or some other anti war hack gets cut off...


"There's a chill wind blowing across the land ..and its emanating from the ears of paranoid air heads ...

MS

[186k\sec]

nah,
'Ice bound' was unapealing to the american potatos,
not enouph violence, sex, or people eating bugs.

convenient for the anti-free speach people to say its 'backlash'
when Bull Durham was running all weekend on TBS.

[Boyd Main]

We are so lucky to have Baseball - a game that unites us as Americans.


This actually brings up a little theory of my own that's been floating around my head for some time now. Do baseball or football or basketball actually unite Americans? Most games will actually divide the nation, as the two teams playing are likely to be American (I realise that there are some Canadian teams in some leagues, but they don't count).

In most other countries with a sporting bent, there are regular international match-ups. In New Zealand, we play rugby against Australia and South Africa multiple times every year, and frequently play teams from Northern Hemisphere nations. Likewise for cricket, netball, rugby league etc. When these international "tests" are played there is a palpable total feeling of identity and unity within the country.

America, on the other hand, hardly ever experiences this kind of sports-based us-versus-them mentality. The Olympics are too infrequent, and even when one of "your" games offers the chance, for example the World Champs of Basketball in Indiana last year, no-one really cares.

If sport is ritualized violence and terratorial battle, is the lack of American participation in international sports somewhat to blame for the American propensity to act-out those intincts militarily? Is it that the only time that Americans can really feel "as one" is when there is a common enemy?

Just some cockamaymee ideas of mine. And comments?

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


This actually brings up a little theory of my own that's been floating around my head for some time now. Do baseball or football or basketball actually unite Americans? Most games will actually divide the nation, as the two teams playing are likely to be American (I realise that there are some Canadian teams in some leagues, but they don't count).

In most other countries with a sporting bent, there are regular international match-ups. In New Zealand, we play rugby against Australia and South Africa multiple times every year, and frequently play teams from Northern Hemisphere nations. Likewise for cricket, netball, rugby league etc. When these international "tests" are played there is a palpable total feeling of identity and unity within the country.

America, on the other hand, hardly ever experiences this kind of sports-based us-versus-them mentality. The Olympics are too infrequent, and even when one of "your" games offers the chance, for example the World Champs of Basketball in Indiana last year, no-one really cares.

If sport is ritualized violence and terratorial battle, is the lack of American participation in international sports somewhat to blame for the American propensity to act-out those intincts militarily? Is it that the only time that Americans can really feel "as one" is when there is a common enemy?

Just some cockamaymee ideas of mine. And comments?

Oh you know how it is Boyd.. nothin brings us together look a good ol American bombing campaign.

You might understand someday.. maybe.. but fist some one needs to tell your friends in New Zealand that kites don't constitute an air force.

Besides Boyd.. with out us at the top of the food chain the yip yip snap snap countries wouldn't have a common "enemy" to bitch and complain about and instead would resort back to what they do best. Complaining about and killing each other.
;)
MS

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Mike S
http://www.drudgereport.com/saran.htm


"At 9 PM in Gotham, Sarandon trailed even the WB network's BLACK SASH [3.5/5], with a 3.4 rating/5 share -- the lowest seen for CBS on Sunday night in recent memory. "

The ten commandments won out at the 10pm slot? Wasn't that made a long time ago?

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


This actually brings up a little theory of my own that's been floating around my head for some time now. Do baseball or football or basketball actually unite Americans? Most games will actually divide the nation, as the two teams playing are likely to be American (I realise that there are some Canadian teams in some leagues, but they don't count).

In most other countries with a sporting bent, there are regular international match-ups. In New Zealand, we play rugby against Australia and South Africa multiple times every year, and frequently play teams from Northern Hemisphere nations. Likewise for cricket, netball, rugby league etc. When these international "tests" are played there is a palpable total feeling of identity and unity within the country.

America, on the other hand, hardly ever experiences this kind of sports-based us-versus-them mentality. The Olympics are too infrequent, and even when one of "your" games offers the chance, for example the World Champs of Basketball in Indiana last year, no-one really cares.

If sport is ritualized violence and terratorial battle, is the lack of American participation in international sports somewhat to blame for the American propensity to act-out those intincts militarily? Is it that the only time that Americans can really feel "as one" is when there is a common enemy?

Just some cockamaymee ideas of mine. And comments?

I agree about the degree of nationalism that obviously exists in sports like soccer especially during the world cup but lack of constant international sports in America leading to act out some instinct to goto war so to speak I think is quite outragous. Boyd do you view American culture like that?

Take care,
Jason

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by ZupanGOD
Boyd do you view American culture like that?


Quite frankly, I do.

"And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air"
vs
"God defend New Zealand" (lord knows we cant)

A blad eagle (a power predator)
vs
A kiwi (shy, nocturnal and insectivorous)

I dunno, it's just interesting to come here from someplace else, and depsite all the surface similarities, underlying attitudes can be pretty different. I'm just wondering where it all comes from, and how its all manifested.

When, apart from being at war, are Americans truely united? (That's actually a real question, I'm curious)

Thinking back to my own experiences in NZ, the only times I remember that real feeling of unity in nationhood have been from sporting events.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Originally posted by Effendi
.#1. Anybody can and anybody does forge documents....perfect ones.

#2 . Trick question...you had to say zionism,

#1. With that said my next point loses validity in a way, yet is still worthy of bringing up. Iraq had WMD at one point, this much is known for a fact.

Doesn't it seem a little odd that they could not provide the papers documenting the destruction of their WMD?

#2. Thanks for posting that link on Zionism. very interesting and fucked up.

Cedwyn-

On some matters I think the US was/is right to intervene, but most of the time I think the US is just stepping their bounds. Effendi's opinion theoretically IS just as valid as the next persons, but people with respectable political credentials tend to sit a bit higher in MY opinion.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Sire


#1. With that said my next point loses validity in a way, yet is still worthy of bringing up. Iraq had WMD at one point, this much is known for a fact.

OK, non-disputed...BUT, whether or not they ever existed was not the question, the question was, "Did the UN Inspectors go into Iraq for all of those years and destroy these weapons as inspectors like Scott Ritter claim they did"?

And is it possible that we were very well aware of the fact that these had been destroyed, and that there really was no iminent threat to the United States?

After all, these plans for the "American Crusade" through chrisandom were written up years ago when there may have actually been a potential WMD threat.

This is one of ther main reasons that Inspector Scott Ritter is so upset with the Government. he claims that such illegal weapons were destroyed on his watch. Now either he is a pridefull dude who does not wish to appear to have not done his job, or maybe he really DID partake in the destruction of banned weapon systems.

Doesn't it seem a little odd that they could not provide the papers documenting the destruction of their WMD?

I was under the impression that the UN Inspector team headed by Hans Blix DO have such documentation and Are VERY aware of exactly what has been destroyed. Hence their severe reluctance to approve such an attack while no hard evidence existed.......ironiclly not unlike the rest of the world.

You have to remember that the UN Inspection team are NOT Iraqi's, they are nuetral members of UN Countries. Our Government tried to paint them as some kind of traitor team, but the truth be told, they reported what they saw, and what they did about it.

#2. Thanks for posting that link on Zionism. very interesting and fucked up.

No doubt, there is no shortage of guilty evil men involved that's for sure.

Contrary to popular belief, I have no particular special interest in that situation other than the fact that this particular land dispute seems to garner excess money and attention of valuable American Taxpayer Appointee's. I just don't see it our responsibility to try to resolve. If there were an easy answer, they would have figured it out themselves long ago. I want American UN-involvement!!

Scott!!

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


Quite frankly, I do.

"And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air"
vs
"God defend New Zealand" (lord knows we cant)

A blad eagle (a power predator)
vs
A kiwi (shy, nocturnal and insectivorous)

I'm suprised at the logic here. National birds, national anthems equals what? I'm actually curious, now you have me thinking that allot of people hate us for a good amount of reasons and those reasons could be just as asinine, subjective, a ocean of a stretch of what actually exists. ohh well.. interesting.

I dunno, it's just interesting to come here from someplace else, and depsite all the surface similarities, underlying attitudes can be pretty different. I'm just wondering where it all comes from, and how its all manifested.

Where what comes from? What is manifested? No bro I actually want to know, this is interesting. This could explain why I think you may have such a disdain view.

When, apart from being at war, are Americans truely united? (That's actually a real question, I'm curious)

Thinking back to my own experiences in NZ, the only times I remember that real feeling of unity in nationhood have been from sporting events.

What do you mean by truley united, if I was to answer your question I'd like to be on your level of understanding first. What is your idea of a country being "truley united"? I mean becuase there is allot of people especially on the left coast that hate America, are these people considered into the equation of whether your truley united as a country or not?

Take care,
-Jason

[Mirko]

Originally posted by Boyd Main

This actually brings up a little theory of my own that's been floating around my head for some time now. Do baseball or football or basketball actually unite Americans? Most games will actually divide the nation, as the two teams playing are likely to be American
Great to see someone who feels this way. I haven't completely decided how I feel about organized sports in general; I think there may be good things to be found in them; I played soccer for about 10 years when I was younger and I have only fond memories. But focusing on the 'major league' sports-- pitting cities against one another in artificial combat is a great way to keep people from uniting. Not to mention the national sports leagues are monopolies (though they have been granted special permission). And Paul Allen ripped off Seattle. When discussing these issues with fans of (pro) sports in the past, I have tried to show the distinction between "art" performances (music, theater, film, etc.) and sporting events, but in general they disagreed, saying there's just as much art in someone throwing a baseball as there is in someone playing guitar.

Plus there's not enough vegan food at ballparks and they make you throw out the water you bring in. They make you throw out water!

[Cedwyn]

It seems to me that the Zionists you speak of are just Jewish radicals that do not represent the whole of Zionism or Hebrew much like the Muslim/Islamic terrorists which are extremists do not represent the whole of Muslim/Islam. Should we be just as concerned about extreme Zionists as we are of terrorists? that makes sense.

and fundamentalist bush doesn't represent quite a number of his constituents, religious or not, but he's in the oval office....

[bungle bliss]

...people are quick to forget about 9-11, and the real interest that was invested behind the attacks.... there are aggressive fundementalists at war with the civilized world today; this is something widely promoted, and a fact that is well established....

I don't know about that. A good majority of people have no idea about Project for the New America Century, I'm guessing.

;)

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by eaz23z


hypothetical headline, monday morning:
"Chile's soccer team defeats US in first round playoff"

come tuesday morning:
"Chile bombed, US united: mid-night raid a justified measure"

haha

[MO]

I've been meaning to post this article for a while. It's an editorial from the UofO Daily Emerald (go Ducks!)
I thought we'd get back on topic will another well written article.
PEACE!!!!!

----------------------------

Unsportsmanlike conduct

Philip Huang
A different light
April 15, 2003

Last week, the Baseball Hall of Fame canceled plans to celebrate the 15th anniversary of 'Bull Durham,' the superb movie about life in the minor leagues. The reason? Its costars, Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, had spoken out against the war on Iraq. The Hall of Fame claimed it did not want to be pro-war or anti-war. Said Dale Petroskey, its president, on the Hall's Web site: "As an institution, we stand behind our president and our troops in this conflict."

Say what?

This act of censorship violates American values. Robbins and Sarandon, partners on and off the screen, had not planned to protest at the Hall of Fame. This disinvitation goes beyond limiting dissent at Cooperstown. It silences dissenters. It encourages others to exclude people with unpopular views, which discourages people for their exercising their freedom anywhere. And the freedom to express our thoughts is the bedrock of American democracy.

Since when did supporting our troops mean silencing the dissenting voices? Haven't our troops fought to give Iraqis the very freedom to speak?

The Hall of Fame's action is also unsportsmanlike. In a letter to Robbins, Petroskey wrote that his "very public criticism of President Bush at this important -- and sensitive -- time in our nation's history helps undermine the U.S. position, which could put our troops in even more danger." So dissenters are aiding the enemy! Now that's hitting below the belt. The insinuations of disloyalty also shatter the Hall's neutral pose.

In sports, rules ensure fair play. Sports fans accept whether their teams win or lose, because the rules are neutral. They apply to everyone. Not so off the field. After basketball star Steve Nash wore a T-shirt saying "No War / Shoot for Peace" last month, team owner Mark Cuban reportedly told players not to talk about the war. Then he wore a flag-waving T-shirt himself.

Here's a secret: On the political spectrum, the sports world is hardly neutral. It often huddles on the right, near the land of country music, which just witnessed the burning of Dixie Chicks CDs. At least no one is ripping Steve Nash basketball cards. What do track legend Jim Ryun, football star Steve Largent and Hall of Fame pitcher Jim Bunning have in common? They were elected to Congress, largely on their celebrity status. They are also conservative Republicans.

Dale Petroskey himself served President Ronald Reagan as assistant press secretary and as spokesman for the Department of Transportation. "I don't think we'll ever see another president like Ronald Reagan," he once gushed to the Daily Star, which covers Cooperstown. Not surprisingly, the Hall's Development Advisory Group includes W. Dennis Thomas, another member of Reagan's staff, and Robb LaKritz, a current Bush Administration lawyer. No wonder we're told to "stand behind our president"!

Being neutral is often difficult. The only solution to our bias is not to discriminate against other views. Only a bad sport tries to disqualify opponents from a game before it starts.

Finally, this decision profanes the spirit of "Bull Durham." This funny and sexy film reveals a little-seen side of sports. Where the Hall of Fame puts athletes on a remote pedestal, "Bull Durham" pokes fun at their flaws and brings you into their daily lives. While the Hall admits a select few, the movie is about the countless boys of summer who play in obscurity for just one chance at The Show.

Ron Shelton, the writer and director of "Bull Durham," also made "White Men Can't Jump" and "Tin Cup." In those films, the most dynamic character is not a man. And she's not an athlete. Sarandon plays Annie, a smart, sassy woman who isn't afraid to tell off the men in her life. She takes under her wing a cocky young prospect named Nuke (Robbins), who has a "million-dollar arm and five-cent head." His saving grace? He learns to listen.

If only the five-cent heads in this world could follow his lead.

[Mike S]

The Tim Robbins "Today Show" myth (4/30)
By Brendan Nyhan

In a widely circulated article, television producer Steven Rosenbaum claims that an April 14 interview with actor Tim Robbins on NBC's "Today Show" was cut off due to controversial statements by Robbins. The transcript, however, shows that, rather than being silenced, Robbins returned for another interview segment after the break and elaborated on his views for another two minutes and thirty seconds. If NBC was indeed engaging in "censorship," as Rosenbaum asserts, its methods of carrying this out were bizarre.

As Rosenbaum so melodramatically depicts, the transcript of the interview does show Robbins being cut off. However, this occurred at the end of a very long interview segment with host Matt Lauer, which Rosenbaum himself clocked at nine minutes:

LAUER: You--you've said in the past you think this is a--a war based largely on oil. When--when you see the scenes of people celebrating in the streets of Baghdad and tearing down statues, does it change your opinion as to our need to go in there at all?
ROBBINS: No. I'm ecstatic that they feel this freedom. I--I hope that they--that we have the resolve to--to get in there and make it work. So far we've lost our focus on Afghanistan, it seems to me, and--and we have a terrible track record, as far as our military leading to democracy. Look at Panama, look at Nicaragua. It's not--it's not--you know, our best interest for some of these things to keep it going and to--to pursue it to the next level. I hope--I hope... (commercial break)
It's unclear how or why this occurred, though sometimes producers unexpectedly cut to breaks when segments run long. Rosenbaum asserts that Robbins was silenced for explicitly political reasons and implies that the interview ended when Robbins was cut off. However, Robbins and Lauer resumed their conversation after the commercial, as the Media Minded blog points out, referencing a comment by Sean Engmann on another blog. Moreover, the MSNBC video of the segment after the break (Windows Media Player format) shows Lauer asking a sympathetic question about dissent:

LAUER: We're back with Tim Robbins talking about the controversy that's now brewing over the Baseball Hall of Fame's decision to cancel his appearance as part of the anniversary of "Bull Durham." What do you think about the climate we're living in right now, where the Dixie Chicks records are pulled, where Madonna pulls a music video because she's afraid that people will misinterpret it as anti-war, anti-troops?
The interview ended cordially at the end of this second, shorter segment:

LAUER: Tim Robbins. Thanks for sticking around. I appreciate it.
ROBBINS: Pleasure.
LAUER: All right. We're back after this.
Robbins, who has been outspoken in speaking about dissent, did not mention the incident during his speech on the subject the very next day at the National Press Club, which is an indication that he does not feel that he was censored. Nonetheless, Rosenbaum's account has spread through the blogosphere and via email forwards, eventually being carelessly republished by Tapped, The American Prospect's weblog.

Let's hope it stops here.