Iraq. Nuke Components.

[Mike S]

U.S.: Nuclear components in Iraq

Pre-Gulf War plans, parts found hidden in residential backyard


MSNBC AND NBC NEWS

WASHINGTON, June 25 — U.S. intelligence officials have found decade-old plans and equipment for a nuclear weapons program in Iraq, indicating that former President Saddam Hussein might have been able to restart the weapons programs he built before the first Gulf War, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.


THREE U.S. OFFICIALS told NBC’s Andrea Mitchell that an Iraqi scientist who was part of what Saddam called his “nuclear mujahadeen” had led the intelligence officials to a barrel in a garden, where they found plans for a centrifuge and components of a uranium enrichment system.
The officials cautioned against reading too much into the discovery, which was first reported by CNN, stressing that it was not a “smoking gun” or evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. They said the plans dated back to the end of the first Gulf War, when Saddam was already widely known to be seeking such weapons, and came as no great surprise.
But the officials asserted that the discovery did prove that Saddam was hiding nuclear components from U.N. inspectors and could have rebuilt a weapons program once they left.
Richard Butler, the United Nations’ former chief weapons inspector, told MSNBC TV’s Lester Holt that he was “absolutely unsurprised” by the report. “We have known of [Saddam’s previous plans] for a decade.”


President Bush claimed before the U.S. invasion of Iraq in March that Iraq already was harboring weapons of mass destruction and has promised that they would eventually be found.
But Butler said that the discovery of components of a uranium enrichment system suggested that Iraq was far from production of actual weapons. The need for an enrichment system established that “Iraq does not have adequate sources of natural uranium,” he said. “... It has to be, above all, enriched to get weapons grade.”
“This all adds up and makes sense,” Butler said.



Whats real interesting is where and how this stuff was hidden.

MS

[asslicking homophobe]

eeehhh... it's just a dead animal chewy

[HexRei]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html
Gee, I thought Saddam was a peace lover. Why would he have ordered this scientist to hide nuclear weapons program equipment for rebuilding the program? Wasn't he supposed to hand this stuff over to the UN?
I'm truly perplexed, Saddam was really akin to the next Gandhi in his pacifism and benevolence, this just can't be true!!!

[Justin]

^^^^

That's some pretty serious straw man action, there. Who here can see a difference between

a)Saddam is a homicidal dictator pursuing weapons to the best of his ability, which isn't much. There's a lot of people just like him but with greater abilities elsewhere in the world we should worry about.

and

b) OMG SADDAM WILL KILL US ALL UNLESS WE INVADE NOW FREEEEDOM!!

(raises hand)

This article argues heartely against your immenent threat arguments made here. It's pre 91, it's buried, and it's useless without uranium to enrich. Even given uranium, it's still a long way from there to the bomb.

Find me one person who said Saddam was peaceful and nice (Effendi doesn't count). Just one (ditto).

Whether Saddam was nice was a trivial question. Everybody knew he wasn't. The question was "is Saddam contained." This article seems to imply he was. If he had any hope of getting uranium and cranking out nukes, that equipment wouldn't have lied underground for so long.


So we have just one more bit of evidence that this war was uneccesary.

<Edited for clarity>

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
^^^^

That's some pretty serious straw man action, there. Who here can see a difference between

a)Saddam is a homicidal dictator pursuing weapons to the best of his ability, which isn't much. There's a lot of people just like him but with greater abilities elsewhere in the world we should worry about.

and

b) OMG SADDAM WILL KILL US ALL UNLESS WE INVADE NOW FREEEEDOM!!

(raises hand)

This article argues heartely against your immenent threat arguments made here. It's pre 91, it's buried, and it's useless without uranium to enrich. Even given uranium, it's still a long way from there to the bomb.

Find me one person who said Saddam was peaceful and nice (Effendi doesn't count). Just one (ditto).

Whether Saddam was nice was a trivial question. Everybody knew he wasn't. The question was "is Saddam contained." This article seems to imply he was. If he had any hope of getting uranium and cranking out nukes, that equipment wouldn't have lied underground for so long.


So we have just one more bit of evidence that this war was uneccesary.

<Edited for clarity>

I made no straw man argument.

Obeidi told CNN the parts of a gas centrifuge system for enriching uranium were part of a highly sophisticated system he was ordered to hide to be ready to rebuild the bomb program.

The scientist told CNN he was ORDERED to hide the parts to REBUILD the program in the future. Saddam obviously couldn't do that with inspectors hanging around, so he planned to serve his parole time and once the dogs were off him, he could turn Iraq into another North Korea.

[HexRei]

By the way, to me, this only confirms what I have said all along: we are not going to stumble into a warehouse and find big jars marked "ANTHRAX- DANGER, WMD!"
If there are WMD's, they were hastily destroyed and/or buried so far out that we'll never find them without inside help like this scientist.

[Justin]

The straw man I was citing was

Gee, I thought Saddam was a peace lover. . .

I'm truly perplexed, Saddam was really akin to the next Gandhi in his pacifism and benevolence, this just can't be true!!!

No one ever asserted that Saddam was a nice guy. The whole invade/ not invade argument wasn't about whether he was a nice guy. The fact that so many pro-war people could only justify this war in arguments with imaginary people who held imaginary posistions really reinforced my anti-war stance. When the best argument you can make involves fictionalizing all oposing voices, there's a problem.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
The straw man I was citing was

"Gee, I thought Saddam was a peace lover. . .

I'm truly perplexed, Saddam was really akin to the next Gandhi in his pacifism and benevolence, this just can't be true!!!"

No one ever asserted that Saddam was a nice guy. The whole invade/ not invade argument wasn't about whether he was a nice guy. The fact that so many pro-war people could only justify this war in arguments with imaginary people who held imaginary posistions really reinforced my anti-war stance. When the best argument you can make involves fictionalizing all oposing voices, there's a problem.

that was simply sarcasm. :rolleyes:
Were you going to respond to the actual issue at hand (you know, equipment intended for rebuilding iraq's nuclear program?), or boohoo about a joke some more?

[Justin]

? Of course it was sarcasm. It was sarcasm against you're imagined enimies' imaginary point: that Saddam was a nice guy. I'm glad you won and all, and I guess it is time to move on. . .

As to the actual article, I think I already made my point: this demonstrates that Saddam's program was pretty deep in remission. He was contained. The war wasn't necessary.

In any case, it's sure a long way from this find to "immenent threat," the very immenent threat the American and Brittish people were assured Iraq posed.

Was this worth a war, and the disasterous follow-up we're currently engaged in?

edited to add: I'm just a little bitter that so much of the Iraq debate, both here and in the big culture, was in the form of straw man arguments and blanket dismissals. My tolerance for both is at an all-time low. Perhaps I'm a little oversensative.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
? Of course it was sarcasm. It was sarcasm against you're imagined enimies' imaginary point: that Saddam was a nice guy. I'm glad you won and all, and I guess it is time to move on. . .

As to the actual article, I think I already made my point: this demonstrates that Saddam's program was pretty deep in remission. He was contained. The war wasn't necessary.

In any case, it's sure a long way from this find to "immenent threat," the very immenent threat the American and Brittish people were assured Iraq posed.

Was this worth a war, and the disasterous follow-up we're currently engaged in?

edited to add: I'm just a little bitter that so much of the Iraq debate, both here and in the big culture, was in the form of straw man arguments and blanket dismissals. My tolerance for both is at an all-time low. Perhaps I'm a little oversensative.

That's beside the point. The terms of the Gulf War treaty were that he was to turn all this shit in to the UN inspectors. He was not to rebuild his WMD (and some other weapons) stocks and he was not to possess means to produce them.
His record of dodging/conning/duping UN inspectors, coupled with this guy's testimony and these components...
I think he should have been removed regardless of WMD's. He never changed, he was just waiting for the next opportunity.

[Justin]

If it was about the UN, then how come we defied the UN by invading?

[ZupanGOD]

This finding doesn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. We already know he had full intentions on keeping the programs at arms reach so when the UN tucked their tails between their legs and went home and lifted the sanctions he could start back up his weapons programs and plan his future agression again. Only an idiot would be shocked about this report.

-Jason

edit:

UN weapon inspectors would have never found this shit right? And if Saddam was able to hide such a thing from UN inspectors is it a stretch of logic to think he has hidden other shit as well? And so if a important piece of a nuclear program was hidden in the ground under a fucking rose garden, would it be logical to think there is more "hidden" shit elsewhere? Just a thought.

[186k\sec]

Canadian Press

Thursday, June 26, 2003

VIENNA (AP) - Indirectly challenging a U.S. argument for war on Iraq, the UN atomic agency said Thursday that a find of parts from Baghdad's original nuclear weapons program appears to back its stance that the project had never been reactivated.

The comments reflected the ongoing dispute between the United Nations and Washington over whether outsted president Saddam Hussein was trying to make weapons of mass destruction.

The U.S. administration argued such programs existed in going to war against Baghdad, while UN inspectors said their searches on the ground turned up no evidence of such programs.

A U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday that American authorities were examining parts and documents from an Iraqi weapons program run in the early 1990s that were handed over by a former Iraqi nuclear scientist.

The scientist, Mahdi Shukur Obeidi, was quoted as saying he had kept the parts buried in his Baghdad garden on the orders of Saddam Hussein's government. Once sanctions against Iraq ended, the material was to be dug up and used to reconstitute a program to enrich uranium to make a nuclear weapon, Obeidi claimed to U.S. officials.

The intelligence official acknowledged the find was not the "smoking gun" that U.S. authorities are seeking to prove U.S. claims that Iraq had an active program to develop a nuclear weapon.

In Vienna Thursday, the International Atomic Energy Agency went even further, suggesting the revelations tended to back its arguments that there was no evidence of such revived programs.

"The findings and comments of Obeidi appear to confirm that there has been no post-1991 nuclear weapons program in Iraq and are consistent with our reports to the Security Council," said agency spokesman Mark Gwozdecky.

The IAEA has long monitored Iraq's nuclear programs and has questioned U.S. claims that Saddam had been reviving his nuclear weapons program.

Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the IAEA, said early on there was no evidence to support Washington's claims. Other UN inspectors found no signs of biological or chemical weapons.

Since the war, U.S. teams looking for evidence of Iraq's alleged chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs have been chasing leads and tips from Iraqis who stand to win reward money offered for evidence. So far no weapons have been found.

Before the second Gulf War, U.S. and allied intelligence agencies said they had evidence that Iraq was seeking to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program, although some of that evidence has since been debunked.

Before the 1991 Gulf War, Obeidi headed Iraq's program to make centrifuges that would enrich uranium for nuclear weapons, the official said. Most or all of that program was dismantled after UN inspections in the early 1990s.

Details of Obeidi's activities during the past decade were not immediately available, although he was interviewed often by IAEA inspectors in 2002, the U.S. intelligence official said.

Obeidi turned over a stack of documents that includes detailed designs for centrifuges, intelligence officials said. He told intelligence officials the parts from his garden were among the more difficult-to-produce components of a centrifuge.

Assembled, the components would not be useful in making much uranium. Hundreds of centrifuges are necessary to make enough to construct a nuclear weapon in such programs.

In Vienna, Gwozdecky, the agency spokesman, said the IAEA had "regularly" reported that Iraq had "successfully tested a single centrifuge prior to 1991

http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=B7E04EA8-FFAF-4989-87B3-8CF010973C31

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
If it was about the UN, then how come we defied the UN by invading?

Maybe I can try and answer. Seeing as the UN would not back up its own mandates and in fact had become complacent - if not complicit via profiting through the oil for food program- with Iraq's flaunting every treaty it signed. Some one had to be the adult, step up to the plate and do the right thing.

that job fell to us.

MS

[Mike S]

Of course they're pissed and challenging what we did - we just yanked a few billion dollars a year out of their entertainment fund by shutting down the oil for food program. What's really interesting is how there was two billion dollars unaccounted for and that story just disappeared from the radar screen. instead of people being indignant over the UN, France and Annan profiting off Iraqi death.. their indignant that we stopped it.

Hi - whats wrong with that picture.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We should boot the &UN off Manhattan Island..let them set up shop in Belgium and then ..sometime in the future let em know when they're needed...if ever.

MS

[HexRei]

So tell me, why exactly did Saddam order Obeidi to bury the nuke parts "in order to rebuild the nuclear program in the future"?
Maybe it was just a silly joke? Perhaps he *oops* forgot about it (darn, where did I put that nuke production equipment again? oh well...) and really meant to turn it in? For that matter, if he was so eager to comply to UN resolutions then why didn't he dig it up and turn it into them, as he was obligated to?
I can't wait to hear the wacked out half-assed explanations that will arise from this one ;)
of course, chances are pretty good that everyone that responds to me will simply dodge these questions anyway.

[186k\sec]

if he was so eager to comply to UN resolutions then why didn't he dig it up and turn it into them, as he was obligated to?
for fear of reprisal . .Saddam was still in power, and he wasnt offering rewards for out dated info like the US is offering now..

I can't wait to hear the wacked out half-assed explanations that will arise from this one
of course, chances are pretty good that everyone that responds to me will simply dodge these questions anyway


Obeidi turned over a stack of documents that includes detailed designs for centrifuges, intelligence officials said. He told intelligence officials the parts from his garden were among the more difficult-to-produce components of a centrifuge.

Assembled, the components would not be useful in making much uranium. Hundreds of centrifuges are necessary to make enough to construct a nuclear weapon in such programs.

sorry spooks, no smoking gun here..

[Justin]

Originally posted by HexRei
So tell me, why exactly did Saddam order Obeidi to bury the nuke parts "in order to rebuild the nuclear program in the future"?
Maybe it was just a silly joke? Perhaps he *oops* forgot about it (darn, where did I put that nuke production equipment again? oh well...) and really meant to turn it in? For that matter, if he was so eager to comply to UN resolutions then why didn't he dig it up and turn it into them, as he was obligated to?
I can't wait to hear the wacked out half-assed explanations that will arise from this one ;)
of course, chances are pretty good that everyone that responds to me will simply dodge these questions anyway.

And again, why was it buried in the first place? Why was it never activated?

So Saddam wanted nuclear weapons. SHOCK AND AWE. However, the whole war/not war argument wasn't about "is he a big meanie" but rather, "is he an immenent threat."

Again, this is just more evidence that he was totally contained.

[seattle science]

If they burried small parts like this, common sense would tell us that other incriminating evidence is burried/hidden as well.

[Mike S]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem


Again, this is just more evidence that he was totally contained.

I thought part of being contained was being disarmed. If he's hiding the means to produce weapons is the implication that he intends to use the means to produce them at a later date?

MS

[Ishkur]

Hey, you know what else they found out there?

SAND..

OMG SAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

they can use the sand to throw in our FACES!! WEPONS OF MAS DESRTUCITON!!! OMGOMGOMGOMGHURREY WE MUST INVAED BEFOER HTEY NUKE US ALL!!!!

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Mike S


I thought part of being contained was being disarmed. If he's hiding the means to produce weapons is the implication that he intends to use the means to produce them at a later date?

MS

Imply? Obeidi came right out and told CNN that Saddam had ordered him to bury them for rebuilding the program in the future. This is, to me, strong evidence that Saddam's compliance with UN disarmaments was only skin-deep, and as soon as we stopped inspecting, he'd jump back into action.

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Ishkur
Hey, you know what else they found out there?

SAND..

OMG SAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

they can use the sand to throw in our FACES!! WEPONS OF MAS DESRTUCITON!!! OMGOMGOMGOMGHURREY WE MUST INVAED BEFOER HTEY NUKE US ALL!!!!

If sand's sole use was as a component for enriching uranium to use in nuclear warheads, your attempt at satire might have some relevance. But as it is, you just look like you had one too many tokes on the crack pipe and collapsed on your keyboard.

[Boyd Main]

Originally posted by HexRei


Imply? Obeidi came right out and told CNN that Saddam had ordered him to bury them for rebuilding the program in the future. This is, to me, strong evidence that Saddam's compliance with UN disarmaments was only skin-deep, and as soon as we stopped inspecting, he'd jump back into action.

Stopped inspecting? Like 1998-2002?

[HexRei]

Originally posted by Boyd Main


Stopped inspecting? Like 1998-2002?

Umm... the UN didn't "stop" inspecting. Iraq refused to let any inspectors in for FOUR YEARS. It was simply an attempt to bully the UN into removing sanctions without fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Saddam would have been truly stupid to attempt to openly rebuild his program during this time period, if anything he was under more scrutiny than ever. He knew he would eventually have to let them back in.

[ZupanGOD]

Originally posted by HexRei
you just look like you had one too many tokes on the crack pipe and collapsed on your keyboard.

ahh my new tag line.. :D