Too bangin', too early?

[Charlie Deep]

I read the discussion in the Kimball Collins thread in the Event Reviews section and it got me thinking so I thought I'd start a discussion here.

Do you think there's a "proper way" to open for a headliner or play early in the night with regards to the energy level and tempo of the music? Or should a DJ be able to play whatever he or she wants regardless of what time of the night it is or who's playing afterwards?

[petey pablo]

I got suckered into going to that party while I was up in Portland. Never seen so many shiney club shirts and way too dressed up ladies (that part was actually the one good thing) come to dance to trance. Thank god my friends didn't want to stay until the end.
Matt
p.s.- sorry I didn't answer the question.

[theperfectcyn]

respect the timeslot +
don't sell out the integrity of your sound/genre/taste =
accept gigs where your tracks are appropriate.


one philosophy: "don't kill 'em too early" is applied, ie:
don't blind 'em w/trance at 10pm, see kimball collins show.
if you start too hard you've got nowhere to go.

but equally important: "don't bore them to the point of leaving after the headliner" ie:
post 129bpm house headliner, a 2am following DJ can bump the bpms 132+ if the crowd's up for it.
nothing's more boring than a night of music that never goes anywhere.

[Won D'funk]

Originally posted by petey pablo
I got suckered into going to that party while I was up in Portland. Never seen so many shiney club shirts and way too dressed up ladies (that part was actually the one good thing) come to dance to trance. Thank god my friends didn't want to stay until the end.
Matt
p.s.- sorry I didn't answer the question.

I don't know what's wrong with people coming out to enjoy the night. Also I don't think we should ever judge people by what they wear anyways. Some people like trance, some like house, some like jungle. Isn't that what this scene is all about? Who cares, as long as everybody is having fun.

Anyways, I think opening up for a big name is more important than closing. When opening, I believe you need to have somewhat of respect for the headliner and set him up, so he could build on top of the opener. I look at a show as a big picture, the whole flow of the show matters a lot to me. About a closing set, I think one can do whatever he wants to play as long as, it flows somewhat from the headliners set.

[ProblematicBeat]

I think the key word when opening for a headliner is HUMBLE. The dj who opens needs to be humble enough to realize the show is not about them. Also a lot of responsibility falls on the promoter for booking a show appropriately. I am sure I have plenty to say about this but my mind can't form sentences quite right today. Peace

Jason

[djowns]

I say fuck it. As a DJ it's your job to keep a dance floor moving, and if the opening DJ got shit banging and brought everyone up to pace than hell yeah you earned it! Shit if your a headliner than you aughta be good enough to keep shit rolling, or continue the mood. DJing is all about moving a crowd!

[MarQ]

Depends on the event, and the crowd.

If its a rave you can pretty much start as hard as you want. At a club, its diffrent, because its a diffrent crowd. A club you need to warm them up, start off slow, and build the energy.

This is more a bad booking issue, as a promoter you should book mellower guys early and save the hard bangin guys till the end. (or gals, don't want to be sexist, girls can rock it just as well.) I have seen poor booking choices, like hard trance opener for a progressive house headliner.... but I have also seen people set up headliners perfectly. Promoters should book intelligently, and DJ's should spin intelligently.

[RNA]

Originally posted by petey pablo
I got suckered into going to that party while I was up in Portland. Never seen so many shiney club shirts and way too dressed up ladies (that part was actually the one good thing) come to dance to trance. Thank god my friends didn't want to stay until the end.
Matt
p.s.- sorry I didn't answer the question.

There were a LOT of members of the "shiny shirt gang" there that night. It was a really random crowd.

As far as answering the question at hand... yes... it is the responsibility of the promoter to properly book dj's based on flow/mood/etc... as well as setting expectations with the DJ's themselves. Promoters need to tell DJ's what style/energy they are looking for, ie: "I really love your smooth, deep house, that's why I'm having you open and bring the crowd up" etc... so they have an idea why you booked them in a particular slot. If you don't do that, then you are leaving it up to the DJ to blindly pack their crate, not knowing why you booked them, and what flow you are trying to set up for the night.

I may get flamed for that statement by "purists" who do not ever want to be told what to do when they are behind the dexx, but really, if the promoter tells the DJ's why they got booked to play at a particular time, and the DJ comes on and plays something totally different.. then that is the perogative of the DJ, it is their call, its their music, and they will probably not get booked by that promoter again.

[f'(x)]

i hire marketeer-narcs to do realtime analysis of groove/response coefficiency
i test audience door-to-door salesman including girl scout cookie pushas
me & the beats have an understanding, i saved her daddy in Iraq II.
also i can operate my technique: Superimposed Libido (1200) Mind Kontrol too.

[lilroj]

I play whatever my heart desires...timeslots have never made a difference. Alot of it boils down to the laid out structure by the promoter. The way I see it in most cases is when a promoter listen's to my demo and says, ok you're going to open...well that's fine, but I'm not going to alter my sound for any headliner. I'm gonna do my thing... I mean, when I walk into a party, it's usually early and I'd much rather here something energetic rather than this warm up crap. People go out to dance, and a dj's job is to move them and live the moment. If every party "Flowed" thoughout the entire night, it would get pretty boring quick and people would just move to the next room. On the other hand, it kicks off with some energy, crowd gets movin, the party goes from there and by the time the headliner steps up, he might have a challage...or if he's real, he'll do what he does best.

[djsadiablo]

fuck the headliner. they don't care about us. play what you want. if there is 10 people in the room and they're going nuts then you done your job. if there is 200 even better. if you out bump the headliner than maybe you should be the headliner. if big name dj's can't keep up then they shouldn't be fucking big name dj's!!!

[corbettfields]

the PROPER way to open for a headlining DJ is hook him with free drugs...

This is known as "The Sasha Opening" and is quite efective in most cases

The other one to watch out for is the "Arrogant Asshole DJ Waiver Defense" where they have in contract "opening DJs not to play faster than 130bpm" - it happens you know

As for the way you open a set? Really depends on whether you want to make a career of it or not..... are you an amateur, or a professional?

As for the "shiney shirt" comments - there sure are a bunch of holier-than-thous around.. we all say "its for the music" but what we mean is "the music and only people who look the same and dress the same and listen to the same stuff as me and if they act/look different i will slag 'em off".. which is what REALLY makes it fun going out to clubs, right?

[RNA]

Originally posted by corbettfields
the PROPER way to open for a headlining DJ is hook him with free drugs...

This is known as "The Sasha Opening" and is quite efective in most cases

The other one to watch out for is the "Arrogant Asshole DJ Waiver Defense" where they have in contract "opening DJs not to play faster than 130bpm" - it happens you know

As for the way you open a set? Really depends on whether you want to make a career of it or not..... are you an amateur, or a professional?

As for the "shiney shirt" comments - there sure are a bunch of holier-than-thous around.. we all say "its for the music" but what we mean is "the music and only people who look the same and dress the same and listen to the same stuff as me and if they act/look different i will slag 'em off".. which is what REALLY makes it fun going out to clubs, right?

ROFL! Good one Derrrrrreck!

I LOVE it!

[Tasty]

^^^^^

Beat me to the punch there Don!!!

Nice one Derrick. This is an interesting discussion.....

[dj jakub]

i dont' think there is much challange in playing music that you don't like just because you know the people there are going to dig it.

it comes down to playing music YOU like, and working your audience into liking it.

[Tasty]

my 2 cents.....

In my opinion, I think there is such thing as too bangin, too early. Granted, it's my own opinion. However, I learned some from pretty good promoters. I used to help out w/ a weekly (Metropolis, in Irvine, CA) that went 8 yrs strong, w/ a strong turnouts every week. Our residents were Doc Martin, Sandra Collins, and Taylor, with special guest residencies. You can't have much better than that. For clubs, there is definitely a flow to the evening. Even w/ parties there is a flow to the evening.

Who wants to blow their wad early in the night? A good party is like good sex - Lot's of foreplay to build to the climax. When the climax comes (no pun, intended), make it as big, bad, and beautiful as one can. Now that is a memorable party!

I thought the headliner was booked for a reason. It's to showcase what that performer has to offer to the dancefloor.

Otherwise the opening dj's would be listed as the headliners, and not the other way around. It shows a certain amount of arrogance, and lack of tact on the opening dj's part (just an opinion). It's like their statement is: I AM HERE, LISTEN AND DANCE TO ME NOW! Who cares who's on after me, type of mentality. Now that is definitely amateur, and not professional in my opinion.

I mean, have things changed? Is there a new format to how to arrange timeslots, and musical programming, that I'm not aware of? What happened to planning, and ensuring a musical progression, and theme to an event/ club night? Are promoters aware of this any more, or is it just a haphazard line up slapped together?

[Tasty]

Originally posted by djsadiablo
fuck the headliner. they don't care about us. play what you want. if there is 10 people in the room and they're going nuts then you done your job. if there is 200 even better. if you out bump the headliner than maybe you should be the headliner. if big name dj's can't keep up then they shouldn't be fucking big name dj's!!!

One day, you may end up being a headliner.... wouldn't it be interesting to see your thought on this subject bite you in the ass?

There is a certain lack of respect in your comments.

I don't know you, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

How do you know that headliners don't care about the locals? Headliners are locals, who have paid their dues, and succeeded.

I have never heard of you, nor have I ever seen you play out. Food for thought man. Respect isn't lightly given. It's earned. And for the most part- Headliners have earned it. I don't think you've earned it yet. Pay your dues, and then respect will be yours deservedly so.

I'm not interested in flaming. I'm just providing my opinion on your thoughts, and hopefully give you a different point of view.

Regards.

[corbettfields]

Originally posted by dj jakub
i dont' think there is much challange in playing music that you don't like just because you know the people there are going to dig it.

it comes down to playing music YOU like, and working your audience into liking it.

.

a-men.. but hopefully DJs are MUSIC LOVERS and so have a range of music that can be played at anytime of the day/night

some of mmy FAVOURITE music includes 70-90 bpm chill for sunsets, sunrises.. and "morning house"..... and min spacy techno like Akufen for opening a Techno show, blah blah blah...

[ProblematicBeat]

For everyone who says fuck the headliner I am gonna book you as a headliner and put a gabber dj on before you to open. You should be talented enough to follow such fast and intense beats right ;)

[Won D'funk]

I think a lot of people have forgotten about the quality of being humble. I guess its where I come from, but I find that I usually give respect to djs who have been at this longer work their ass off to become a headliner. Being humble doesn't mean that I play out of my character opening for a headline Dj. I think it is more playing what you wanna play and support the headliner at the same time. It may sound tricky, but I know I have music that is not banging that I would love to play before a headliner. And I am sure most of Djs have those selections in their crates. And remember SOME DAY you could be the headliner. BUT, that's just my opinion.

Peace!

[corbettfields]

Originally posted by Won D'funk
I think a lot of people have forgotten about the quality of being humble. I guess its where I come from, but I find that I usually give respect to djs who have been at this longer work their ass off to become a headliner. Being humble doesn't mean that I play out of my character opening for a headline Dj. I think it is more playing what you wanna play and support the headliner at the same time. It may sound tricky, but I know I have music that is not banging that I would love to play before a headliner. And I am sure most of Djs have those selections in their crates. And remember SOME DAY you could be the headliner. BUT, that's just my opinion.

Peace!

Exactly! That's why I'm so good, cause I'm the most humble person you'll ever meet. I've been Humble since '74 when i saw Can play... Man, there's NO-ONE more humble than me - stat! I remember when Sasha said to me, Derek, you're just so fuckin' humble dude, you'll go far... I think that was in '87 in Ibiza.. we were playing Daft Punk.. To the rock kids... Another thing I hate is name droppers,, asshats! But anyway, you gotta admit that I'm the most humble person, ever... and you can take that one to the bank.

[Tasty]

Originally posted by corbettfields


Exactly! That's why I'm so good, cause I'm the most humble person you'll ever meet. I've been Humble since '74 when i saw Can play... !... Sasha said to me, Derek, ... '87 in Ibiza...Daft Punk.. Another thing I hate is name droppers,, asshats! ....


A name dropping asshat, cowboy??? Why you calling yourself a name dropping asshat? Happy Birthday btw....... ;)

[Won D'funk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by corbettfields

Yeah, I usually go around town saying I know corbettfield. That gets me anywhere! I am such a name dropper! Happy birthday, Derek!

[Lizard King]

... lots of ya'll have a good take on the issue ... the "are you an amateur or are you a professional" comment pretty much sums it up to me ... either you play whatever you want/however you want, or you take into consideration the whole scope of the event and figure out how you best fit in. Personally I think that the opening (as in very first) slot at any event is very crucial as it sets the tone for the entire evening. If an opener plays like they don't give a fuck it will leave a much worse resonance in the room than if someone rocks it with the best intentions. I see this happen especially at all-ages shows when the opener plays at like 9 and there are 5 people there listening ...

[corbettfields]

Originally posted by Lizard King
... lots of ya'll have a good take on the issue ... the "are you an amateur or are you a professional" comment pretty much sums it up to me ... either you play whatever you want/however you want, or you take into consideration the whole scope of the event and figure out how you best fit in. Personally I think that the opening (as in very first) slot at any event is very crucial as it sets the tone for the entire evening. If an opener plays like they don't give a fuck it will leave a much worse resonance in the room than if someone rocks it with the best intentions. I see this happen especially at all-ages shows when the opener plays at like 9 and there are 5 people there listening ...

nicely put....

i've dissed on headliners before, but i think it was because i was knackered by the openers.,.. so in effect the openers ruined the headliner for me... bastards...

another point... all these big room DJ's mix CDs dont start bangin', do they? as they "take us on a journey" [grabs bag and pukes at cliche] they start a bit mellow like...

oh, whatever.. i'm taking my Vandit/Nuklez rekkids to the Lounge I play at tonite!

[electrokid]

Originally posted by RNA
I may get flamed for that statement by "purists" who do not ever want to be told what to do when they are behind the dexx, but really, if the promoter tells the DJ's why they got booked to play at a particular time, and the DJ comes on and plays something totally different.. then that is the perogative of the DJ, it is their call, its their music, and they will probably not get booked by that promoter again.

i had a similiar experience in which an "old schooler" was told that we would like him to play banging house music in the main time slot in which we booked him. what did he do? he played slow and boring ass detroit techno.

when enquiring with friends about why this person may have done this, i was told that this person plays what he wants when he wants because he is "old school" and feels he has a right. whatever. very few promoters these days ever consider him. now i know why.

as for the original topic, yes it is up to the promoter to program their night correctly but sometimes the dj has to realize that they may be inexperienced with booking as well as a dj, it should be realized that a 9 pm booking generally calls for more mellow type music as people are floating in and getting comfortable with their surroundings. rave or club, it doesn't really matter. setting the mood/pace for the night is just as important as being the headliner. it is an important piece of the puzzle.

[bElo]

Originally posted by djsadiablo
fuck the headliner. they don't care about us. play what you want. if there is 10 people in the room and they're going nuts then you done your job. if there is 200 even better. if you out bump the headliner than maybe you should be the headliner. if big name dj's can't keep up then they shouldn't be fucking big name dj's!!!
Keep up?? Huh, since when did spinning records become a race to the fastest bpm? It is called pace, mood, flow,.... fuck call it what you want to. It all goes back to being in the moment, not lost in your own baleric world of massive beats. Some call it proper. Or if you are MC Hammer PROPA!!
Peas-bElo(living @160bpms)
PS
What would you play if say you spun after Dieselboy? Tech-step(what-ever that is now), Dark Jungle, Old School + Ragga, huh,..huh,..huh?
Any coments?

[groovinkim]

Originally posted by electrokid
i had a similiar experience in which an "old schooler" was told that we would like him to play banging house music in the main time slot in which we booked him. what did he do? he played slow and boring ass detroit techno.

when enquiring with friends about why this person may have done this, i was told that this person plays what he wants when he wants because he is "old school" and feels he has a right. whatever. very few promoters these days ever consider him. now i know why.



hm. have you asked the person why they did it? friends might not know their real motivations. i'd be upset if someone had a question for me and asked my friends instead. does this person normally play banging house music?

p.s. of the few promoters out there who do consider him, does he currently have a residency anywhere playing slow & boring ass detroit techno? 'cause that's my current musical love so i'd be interested. i haven't had much luck finding it in seattle because as you noted most people are not into it, esp. in a prime time slot.

[Sophistik]

Originally posted by TheLiquid1
I say fuck it. As a DJ it's your job to keep a dance floor moving, and if the opening DJ got shit banging and brought everyone up to pace than hell yeah you earned it! Shit if your a headliner than you aughta be good enough to keep shit rolling, or continue the mood. DJing is all about moving a crowd!

Bwahahahhahhaa. ;)

[djsadiablo]

i have paid my dues. i've spent the last year playing some of the most exclusive clubs in LA, doing benefits, fundraisers, playing for free or beer(i much prefer beer). i have much respect for headliners that can keep up(keep up meaning talent not bpm) with their openers. my point is that yes i have met guys like dieselboy, and a huge number of them have no respect for the people that open for them. they think that they are the show. without the openers the show would be two hours long. who's gonna pay 25$ for a two hour show? i came up north to be with my wife, by doing so i've had to focus less on djing and more on working my crappy day job. for the local guys that headline shows, guys like zacharia, nitsuj, naha, flave...i love them all. i'm not talking about them, never was.

[Daddy-o]

I kinda agree with everyone, in that it's your own opnion! I think club nights should be almost like a roller coaster ride, the crazy turns and upsidedown part of the ride is always in the middle! I don't know of any r.c. that has started out crazy and progressivly slowed through out! I agree that part of it is on the promoter, booking proper is important. Booking locals to open and close for a headliner can sometimes be hard, I guess for me I like to give someone the benefit of the doubt, be proffesional and do the job you were slated to do. I think it's all in the title
opener= a first performance, an opportunity
headliner= to serve or present as the star performer
closer= to bring or come to an end

Sorry if people wish to give themselves other titles, but if you are given the opportunity to perform, do just that, within the confines of your position!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aaron Sontag]

My two little cents are as follows:: There is a multitude of different types of bookings all of them unique and all transitional. I love to play any and all different levels of sets and moods, I love the diversity in figuring out( what time? who's before? whos after? ) And then constructing the appropriate record selections-making a statment-rising to the challenge of playing just the right shit at the right time. When all aspects of your booking are considered you can't go wrong( unless you suck ass like me :)
Cheers

[GODZILLA]

Originally posted by Aaron Sontag
My two little cents are as follows:: There is a multitude of different types of bookings all of them unique and all transitional. I love to play any and all different levels of sets and moods, I love the diversity in figuring out( what time? who's before? whos after? ) And then constructing the appropriate record selections-making a statment-rising to the challenge of playing just the right shit at the right time. When all aspects of your booking are considered you can't go wrong( unless you suck ass like me :)
Cheers

GODZILLA BELIEVE THAT THIS IS PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDE...

[Dave Science]

An event thrown by a promoter should be exactly like a dj making a mix cd.

djs = tracks
tracks = audience
genres = progression

:)

[nw*verseau]

I am a little confused about what happened. What is it meant by too bangin, too early? There are so many different opinions rolling around in this thread that I feel like I am missing something. If I am way off please let me know and help me to understand.
Daniel, you know that I respect your opinion and I really don't think that we disagree on too many things, but I am disappointed when an opening dj doesn't show their full potential. If they are good then I want to see it. Headliners shouldn't care if the person before them kicked ass and put on a show. That should inspire them to continue and really show off. I think that Ray and I run into this problem way too frequently. Ray is good and not always a headliner, but he shouldn't downplay himself just because for example he is on before Carl Cox or Mix Master Mike. If anything the headliner should be mortified when they have to come out and have to work harder to get the crowd pumped.

We live in a society that wishes to set a standard way too low. Like people are in competition and afraid to see someone with as much talent as them. I say that a headliner should be going to different cities to see new talent kick some ass. The opener should be prodding them to come out and kick it a little more. If a headliner is going to come out and hope that no one shows him up then I say that headliner should be opening. He should be able to stand up and say I am really good and if someone is better I will become even better than him. If he chooses not to push himself I say, "get the fuck out of the way!"

Am I way off here, is there more to it that?
Natanya

[milgramShock]

Originally posted by Aaron Sontag
....There is a multitude of different types of bookings all of them unique and all transitional. I love to play any and all different levels of sets and moods, I love the diversity in figuring out( what time? who's before? whos after? ) And then constructing the appropriate record selections-making a statment-rising to the challenge of playing just the right shit at the right time. When all aspects of your booking are considered you can't go wrong...

this is perfect. every dj and promoter should think like this.

[milgramShock]

Originally posted by electrokid


i had a similiar experience in which an "old schooler" was told that we would like him to play banging house music in the main time slot in which we booked him. what did he do? he played slow and boring ass detroit techno.

i'm sure this "old schooler" (i know exactly who) was about as high as the 6ft bong will take him too.

[theft]

to quote my fav. local Chris Anderson(I'm from Houston damnit!)

VB:From a local standpoint, what are your thoughts about the decay of
the Houston scene and what things need to take place to bring it back to
where it once was?
Chris:I think we are back to the beginning. Promoters need to pay attention to the details of parties, like good sound, strobes, and fog to start with. Parties are pretty lame these days, as promoters seem to think its all about who the headliner is. The music and people's enjoyment is enhanced tremendously by a good environment. I also think promoters have doomed things a long time ago by lumping all the underground dance music together, and not having any consistency to the party. In my opinion, it has always been bad to mix up styles in the main room, ie jungle and house. The tempos are not compatible, and the vibe change is too abrupt. To me, it's about the same as turning the lights on in the middle of the party. These may seem minor things to discuss, but I think they have had a major impact, and need to be
addressed.

[djslyck]

I am not sure how other guys do it, so this is mine. Along with spinning, I have also thrown a few parties, and when I set the lineup up, I keep in mind how each dj plays and what they play, then I arrange them in an order that will controll the crowds mood. I figure if any other promoter is like that, then you should never have a problem playing whatever you like. Me, I start off slow usually, right at around 120bpms, then work my way up, unless asked to do otherwise. I figure dropping your proverbial load before people have a chance to get into your set isn't the best way to make a good impression. but who knows, that is me