Other major news stories...The Mass immigration protests..

[Effendi]

How do you guys feel about THIS:


Montebello High School in California!

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown003.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown004.jpg

Now THAT'S messed up!!

I do NOT agree with the US Government, but that is NOT THEIR flag, it is OUR Flag.

The traitors in our government will be gone sooner or later but that is OUR FLAG.

Those Mexicans better be careful...there are those of us that grew up with them and except them, but when you hang my flag upside down, your asking for trouble....

I am all about free speech but there should NOT BE ANY American flag hanging upside down on AMERICAN soil!! PERIOD!!

Scott!!

[***DRUKORE***]

Im all about a revolt. This country needs to be jolted more.

BUT I agree with you. The flag thing is messed up.

But then again, in my punk rock days I had the shirt with the flag like that.

[Godlike]

that would "accept them" slightly different meaning.. ;) but i know what you mean..

[justavisitor]

i'm a little torn on the subject.

i actually know quite a few kids from montebello high school, i'm a director for a summer camp & they're my counselors every year, so i've been hearing about their thoughts & protests & everything that's been going on the past couple weeks and while i DO agree with what they're fighting for...i think a lot of people are going about it the wrong way. instead of handling things maturely it seems a lot of kids are just jumping on the bandwagon & protesting because it's better than being in school. and the flag thing is totally disrespectful. if you're going to do that, i don't even see why you're fighting to stay & work & go to school in a place that you're fight AGAINST so much.

[dj cid 6.7]

This goes in line with flag burning....

This is a VERY strong statement indeed. I went to high school in southern cali and was often reminded that the US took cali from Mexico. So I can kinda see the frustration. On the other hand, those kids are living a lot better than their relatives in TJ.

We depend on illegal migrant workers for our economy to survive.

I haven't formed an opinion about this debate yet but......

Not allowing them to fly the flag upside down in protest sould be just as bad as the act of doing it itself. People must be free to protest in a peacefull manner.

The kids should be forced back into school though.

[djsteel]

Do I not understand this issue?

People enter country illegally.
People are employed illegally.
We finally start cracking down.
Illegal people revolt about how we need them.
Illegal people put their flag above our flag in our country
Illegal people want our respect.

What in my head is not allowing this to be pieced together correctly?

[littlelimelight]

yeah, that's interesting. Maybe they should go back and visit some of Mexico, where people are doing anything they can to get into this country...see the poverty, the pain that some of their people go through just to have a place to sleep at night...they might change their minds about the flag thing.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by dj CID 6.7
This goes in line with flag burning....

This is a VERY strong statement indeed. I went to high school in southern Cali and was often reminded that the US took Cali from Mexico. So I can kinda see the frustration.

Yea me too, and I got along with my Soreno and Norteno school mates, but this is different..

We depend on illegal migrant workers for our economy to survive.

Yea but Curtis you can't have it both ways ....can we?

I haven't formed an opinion about this debate yet but......

Yea I guess I haven't gone solid yet myself with all the other local happenings, yet I'm sure about ONE THING, I'm not comfortable with MY FLAG upside down....UNDER a Mexican flag....

Not allowing them to fly the flag upside down in protest should be just as bad as the act of doing it itself. People must be free to protest in a peaceful manner.

I DISAGREE, It's OUR tax dollars paying for their education at that school, A SCHOOL is MUCH different than a city street although I would take issue with it there also!!

Scott!!

[Athen]

I think that's an over reaction.

If they didn't do something like this no one would pay any attention.

I think they should have the right to turn a flag upside down if they want to.

In the end it's just a flag and not worth anyone's life, or even really any harm being done to them.

Some people would argue it stands for freedom and whatnot, but it has also stood for things like this,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_%281964%29#Interpretation

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese-American_internment_camps

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide#The_genocide_debate

So, it's just a piece of cloth. It only stands for what anyone one is using it for at that moment... And I believe peaceful protest that will actually get media coverage is a worthy enough cause.

[Cedwyn]

Originally posted by djsteel
Do I not understand this issue?

People enter country illegally.
People are employed illegally.
We finally start cracking down.
Illegal people revolt about how we need them.
Illegal people put their flag above our flag in our country
Illegal people want our respect.

What in my head is not allowing this to be pieced together correctly?
they were specifically protesting HR 4437, which is one draconian piece of shit. it would criminalize any assistance given to illegal immigrants. if you're a church and happen to feed some of these poor souls, god help you. etc. here's the ACLU's rundown on the bill:

http://www.aclu.org/natsec/gen/22371leg20051207.html

it's also true that the corporations offering sub-minimum wage, off-the-books jobs to these immigrants should be taken to task, but, of course, HR 4437 is completely silent on that point.


Originally posted by dj cid 6.7
This goes in line with flag burning....

This is a VERY strong statement indeed. I went to high school in southern cali and was often reminded that the US took cali from Mexico. So I can kinda see the frustration. On the other hand, those kids are living a lot better than their relatives in TJ.

We depend on illegal migrant workers for our economy to survive.

I haven't formed an opinion about this debate yet but......

Not allowing them to fly the flag upside down in protest sould be just as bad as the act of doing it itself. People must be free to protest in a peacefull manner.

The kids should be forced back into school though.
i totally agree, except for the forcing kids back to school. they're learning more at that protest than they would all day in some stuffy classroom.

as for the immigration issue: this country was founded on the backs of immigrants. that we now get our knickers in a twist over the dark-skinned ones is disgusting.

am i suggesting that the borders should just be scott free for anyone? no. nor am i saying that illegal aliens have every right to be here. but, as with abortion, they are trying to use legislation to fix a problem, the roots of which lie everywhere but the legal realm.

we HAVE immigration laws. we HAVE an established nationalization process and mechanisms for controlling immigration. the reason this is such a huge issue right now is because shrubCo has been exceptionally cavalier about enforcing the existing laws and funding enforcement programs so that companies could have their cheap labor. that is to say, the situation has gotten a lot worse on his watch.

p.s. should you ever decide to burn a flag in protest, please make sure it's all natural fibers.

[NEXT LEVEL]

while i dont personally agree with it, i do think that people should have the right to protest in what ever way they see fit, our country is about FREEDOM for ALL OF US.. this probably isnt the image most of the protestors are wanting to convey to the world, but again, the freedom to protest in any way you want to make any statement you want, should be protected... but again i will say that i DO NOT agree with the way this statement is benig made in this photo.. it is certainly disrespectful to our country.... lets not assume the protests are about this specific statement tho... take it with a grain of salt...

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Athen

In the end it's just a flag and not worth anyone's life, or even really any harm being done to them.

Don't be so callous...that flag HAS represented THOUSANDS of American Lives!!

So, it's just a piece of cloth.

Tell that to the soldiers DYING for that "piece of cloth"

And I believe peaceful protest that will actually get media coverage is a worthy enough cause.
Have you risked YOUR life for that flag?

Burn an effigy of the president I don't care, he's a traitor to America.

But that flag has ALOT of AMERICAN PATRIOT blood on it!!

Scott!!

[R33koh]

I feel that as a partial immigrant (Puerto Rico is a commonwealth), I still feel as though those that have come here illegally should not be able to enjoy the same benefits as citizens.

I believe that those that have come here illegally don't need to necesarily leave, but at least need to make some sort of push at obtaining citizenship, and by doing so, they can partcipate in the same benefits of being a citizen that we do.

Something along the lines of stricter regulations? I dunno...

That doesnt address the issue of borderhopping or border-restrictions, but I'm not quite sure how i feel on that yet. I was lucky enough to be born a puerto rican, I didnt have to worry about that part, but my fellow latinos, however, weren't so lucky.

[dj cid 6.7]

Originally posted by Effendi
Yea but Curtis you can't have it both ways ....can we?

No we cant have it both ways.. Im sure there could be a solution all can agree on. I have too look into it more.

Yea I guess I haven't gone solid yet myself with all the other local happenings, yet I'm sure about ONE THING, I'm not comfortable with MY FLAG upside down....UNDER a Mexican flag....

Me neither... But I am very comfortable with one of the things our nation was founded on: Freedom of speech!!!!

I DISAGREE, It's OUR tax dollars paying for their education at that school, A SCHOOL is MUCH different than a city street although I would take issue with it there also!!

Scott!!

Thats a tough one, good point about the school. I have rethought this. I would have to say that the school faculty shoud have never let it get as far as flying the mexican flag above the upside down US flag. What the pic doesn't show is what happened after the flag was put up. Was it a quick moment in which someone snapped a pic and the flag went right back down??
Or, was the flag allowed to fly that way for a long time??

High school kids shouldn't be allowed to commit such an act on government property. Theres no doubt about that.

[Effendi]

A couple snips from the Flag Code:
http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

STANDARDS of RESPECT
The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.


What is REALLY wrong with this picture and of total disrespect is:

When it is displayed from the same flagpole with another flag - of a state, community, society or Scout unit - the flag of the United States must always be at the top except that the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for Navy personnel when conducted by a Naval chaplain on a ship at sea.

And…

When flown with flags of states, communities, or societies on separate flag poles which are of the same height and in a straight line, the flag of the United States is always placed in the position of honor - to its own right.
..The other flags may be smaller but none may be larger.
..No other flag ever should be placed above it.
..The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.
When flown with the national banner of other countries, each flag must be displayed from a separate pole of the same height. Each flag should be the same size. They should be raised and lowered simultaneously. The flag of one nation may not be displayed above that of another nation.

[djsteel]

Me neither... But I am very comfortable with one of the things our nation was founded on: Freedom of speech!!!!

They Should not have the US Freedoms if they are not claiming to live under our constitution .(putting a Mexico stamp on themselves above the US Stamp)

Im not saying whether these people at this school are legal/illegal, but it sounds like they are trying to take the benefit of the country without accepting the responsibility of it.

The entire reason why they are here is for the opportunities in the US, but they go and hang a Mexican flag over ours which has a definate Overtone of WE ARE MEXICO.

If they are not US Citizens, then they do not have the freedom of speech.

If they are claiming their Mexico over US patriotism, then they do not deserve the Safety or security of the US OTHER THAN WHAT WE CHOOSE TO PROVIDE.

...Flame on, I guess...

[Effendi]

Originally posted by dj cid 6.7
What the pic doesn't show is what happened after the flag was put up. Was it a quick moment in which someone snapped a pic and the flag went right back down??
Or, was the flag allowed to fly that way for a long time??
.

If you look at the bottom pics with the kids partying, the flags fly high above the school.....

[Athen]

<quote>
" Do I not understand this issue?

People enter country illegally.
People are employed illegally.
We finally start cracking down.
Illegal people revolt about how we need them.
Illegal people put their flag above our flag in our country
Illegal people want our respect.

What in my head is not allowing this to be pieced together correctly?"
</quote>

Because you're not seeing them as separate people, you're seeing 'mexicans' as one group that speaks with one voice. Because the mexicans are outside you're monkey sphere.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

But there people, and a lot of them, so there each going to feel a little differently about an issue. Just like if you ran a poll about the issue in New York or Seattle.

A lot of the reason our food is so cheap is because of these people working on farms in the south. I used to live down there... I think they might have a point.

Polarization is the first step towards Xenophobia, and that leads quickly to hate.

[Cedwyn]

it's all a largely moot discussion anyway. i believe california already has a majority mexican population.

[R33koh]

Originally posted by djsteel
They Should not have the US Freedoms if they are not claiming to live under our constitution .(putting a Mexico stamp on themselves above the US Stamp)

Im not saying whether these people at this school are legal/illegal, but it sounds like they are trying to take the benefit of the country without accepting the responsibility of it.

The entire reason why they are here is for the opportunities in the US, but they go and hang a Mexican flag over ours which has a definate Overtone of WE ARE MEXICO.

If they are not US Citizens, then they do not have the freedom of speech.

If they are claiming their Mexico over US patriotism, then they do not deserve the Safety or security of the US OTHER THAN WHAT WE CHOOSE TO PROVIDE.

...Flame on, I guess...

I am in 100% aggreeance on this one

[djsteel]

Athen...please don't refer to my view as a 'monkey sphere'...it's degrading and insulting, and I did nothing to instigate it.

[dj cid 6.7]

Originally posted by Effendi
Have you risked YOUR life for that flag?

YES I HAVE!!!

Burn an effigy of the president I don't care, he's a traitor to America.

But that flag has ALOT of AMERICAN PATRIOT blood on it!!

Scott!!

Scott I love you man, but I disagree with you on this one... Yes the flag has blood on it. But that blood was spilled for the freedoms that the flag represents.. One of them being freedom of speech..
We cannot allow our emotions to get in the way of the core values at stake here!!

[R33koh]

Originally posted by dj cid 6.7
YES I HAVE!!!



Scott I love you man, but I disagree with you on this one... Yes the flag has blood on it. But that blood was spilled for the freedoms that the flag represents.. One of them being freedom of speech..
We cannot allow our emotions to get in the way of the core values at stake here!!

But those are freedoms that immigrants did not die for. How can you denounce a country you are in and then turn around and take some of the freedoms?! Isn't that kinda like biting the hand that feeds you?

[djsteel]

But that blood was spilled for the freedoms that the flag represents.. One of them being freedom of speech..


...Again...they don't deserve the freedoms of the Constitution if they Do not claim to live under the constitution, or show ANY respect towards the constitution that gives the freedom...

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Effendi

Now THAT'S messed up!!

I do NOT agree with the US Government, but that is NOT THEIR flag, it is OUR Flag.

Agreed.
I'm all for immigration, but do it legally. I don't buy the excuse that they need to earn money, because the second largest source of revenue for Mexico is RETURNED MONEY FROM WORKING IN AMERICA!

My family came through Ellis Island at a time when boats were being sent back to Europe... and we were being murdered. Yet, we came here LEGALLY and the need was far more dire than the Mexican one. So if my family can come here legally, why do Mexicans feel exempt from this requirement?

If you came here legally, then there is no reason to protest... the only contestment one could have is if a family member is here illegally. But he, what do THESE kids care? Mommy and Daddy popped them out here in the states, to their citizens by proxy.

[Athen]

Did you even read it? The term "monkey sphere" directly relates to the etymology of the method of thought, not in order to be condescending to anyone. {as in it was formulated based upon studies done with primates}

I think he has a point, and it correlates to what I said directly. Sorry if you view it as insulting, but that is not the intent at all.

I will not retract my statement, I do not find it degrading; and I believe it is still in some manor valid for all humans including myself.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by dj cid 6.7
YES I HAVE!!!


That's one reason I got nothing but love for ya...



Scott I love you man, but I disagree with you on this one... Yes the flag has blood on it. But that blood was spilled for the freedoms that the flag represents.. One of them being freedom of speech..
We cannot allow our emotions to get in the way of the core values at stake here!!

Yes for AMERICANS, not illegal immigrants....

You didn't go to Iraq and fight so that a bunch of Mexicans could illegally enter AMERICA and hang your colors inverted!!

I am NOT against them, They play a vital part of our economy, but don't "diss": MY flag!!

[dj cid 6.7]

Originally posted by Reekoh
But those are freedoms that immigrants did not die for. How can you denounce a country you are in and then turn around and take some of the freedoms?! Isn't that kinda like biting the hand that feeds you?

Very interesting.. I do not feel that illegal immigrants should have access to the same social services as citizens or even permanent residents. That part needs reform for sure

[Cedwyn]

Originally posted by Reekoh
But those are freedoms that immigrants did not die for. How can you denounce a country you are in and then turn around and take some of the freedoms?! Isn't that kinda like biting the hand that feeds you?
i'd just like to point out that immigrants are indeed fighting in iraq as we type. quite a significant number of them actually. it's the one enlistment promise the government has kept - expedited green card/naturalization process.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Effendi

You didn't go to Iraq and fight so that a bunch of Mexicans could illegally enter AMERICA and hang your colors inverted!!

So are all the illegals from SE Asia... but they're smart enough NOT to draw attention to themselves by shouting in the streets. If you're doing something illegal, the last thing yuo wanna do is draw attention to yourself.

One thing that bothers me is that many illegals from Mexico have forged documents, like SS cards and birth certificates... It's a felony to alter a federal ID card, so why isn't more focus on THAT aspect? It's not even like they're sneaking in, they're LYING and defrauding the American employers and citizens. If that's not criminal, what is?

[Effendi]

.
I believe this needs attention and I am as of yet undecided what is fair.

I just saw red when I saw the flag inverted...

If they want my attention, they got it!!

[R33koh]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
i'd just like to point out that immigrants are indeed fighting in iraq as we type. quite a significant number of them actually. it's the one enlistment promise the government has kept - expedited green card/naturalization process.

then those immigrants have earned their rights to be here by far, IMHO

[dj cid 6.7]

Originally posted by Effendi
.
I believe this needs attention and I am as of yet undecided what is fair.

I just saw red when I saw the flag inverted...

If they want my attention, they got it!!

Werd!!! I have to do some work now!! LOL:D :D :D

[seattle science]

My brother came here from Malawi (S.E. Africa) has been patiently waiting for ten years, to become an American citizen legally . OTM's like him, people who follow the law, should be the one's protesting this half assed amnesty program. Sure, Mexican immigrants are special because their our southern neighbors, but the answer is not to promote entering the country illegally, which the new bill is going to do after conference. The answer is an easier and more expedient visa and entrance process. That way we discourage entering the country illegally and at the same time we are able to document those who come into the country. As far as those who are already here illegally, they broke the law. They know they broke the law. And they need to be held responsible for their own decisions. Deportation of all illegals (enforcing the current laws on the books) needs to continue, businesses who employ them need to be penalized, and once they're back in Mexico they need to re-enter legally. They have houses and possessions that they may lose if they are deported? B.o.o.h.o.o. They committed a crime and must be held responsible. When you get caught cutting in line, you have to go to the back of the line. Thats the way it works.

I don't give a fuck about them hanging the US flag upside down. It just manages to hurt their image further. Idiots.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by seattle science
As far as those who are already here illegally, they broke the law. They know they broke the law. And they need to be held responsible for their own decisions.
Agreed. I can't imagine raising a stink if you're one of the people that came to America legally. In fact, I'd be angry that people were protesting, if I went through the hoops TO come here legally and there were so many people that came from my same country illegally raising protest.

[Godlike]

shit...

i thought i saw two flags....

if the school only has one pole, one flag has to go on top..

if the majority of the students are mexican, they have the freedom of expression to put their flag on top..

it's the american way..

[Effendi]

Originally posted by Godlike

if the majority of the students are mexican, they have the freedom of expression to put their flag on top..

it's the american way..

No Dave it's NOT, read the rules!!

A couple snips from the Flag Code:
http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

STANDARDS of RESPECT

..The other flags may be smaller but none may be larger.
..No other flag ever should be placed above it.



Not that I'm going to all of a sudden get technical about rules or anything but placing a flag of a foreign country above the Stars and Stripes is NOT the American way that I'm aware of!!

Scott!!

[Gucci Smoochies]

As a daughter of an immigrant who became an American LEGALLY I am disgusted that there are people out there who are supporting that illegal immigrants be granted an immunity of sorts.

They came over illegally. They knew it was illegal when they did it. What is the big fucking deal? They're illegal. They shouldn't have rights because they AREN'T AMERICAN CITIZENS YET!!!

Until they have legally obtained a greencard or gone through all the steps to become an American, then they don't have a leg to stand on. Is it fucked up that our economy in the crop and cheap labor industry will probably crash because of it - absolutely, but it's not our fault the industries don't want to pay people do their work legally and at a decent payrate. Maybe it will force the crop and cheap labor industries to realize that they need to take a cut from their profits and take better care of their employees vs. being penalized.

As for churches and such assisting illegal immigrants - I've never understood. If I went to another country illegally, lived there illegally, and was discovered - I WOULDN'T BE GETTING HANDOUTS OR ASSISTANCE. I would get my ass deported ASAP.

People need to think about this topic a bit more. These people are illegal. They crossed over the border illegally. They are driving cars illegally. They are taking jobs illegally. They are taking handouts which come from our tax dollars and raising their children whom crowd our schools ILLEGALLY.

Why is this even a problem?! Build the fucking fence. Enforce the damn laws like they SHOULD have been and get over it. If you make it easier for people to push the envelope and come over here, who's to say people won't push the envelope on other issues and laws?

Yes becoming a citizen is hard. Yes there is a lot of red tape. Yes you wait a LONG time to become one, but the fact is - THAT'S HOW IT IS ANYWHERE. If you jump the boat and come over here illegally, don't assume that it should be easier for you because you have been here a certain amount of years or whatever. You didn't do it right the first time, don't assume that you should be granted immunity for it. My boyfriend's mother has been here for 30+ years. She married an American and bore four boys in the states. Therefore, she should be considered a citizen. Nope. She is still in the process of becoming an american years later. She has a legal greencard and has been here 30+ years but still is not an american. It takes a long time to become a legal american but if it's what you want - WORK FOR IT.

I hate that people come in here and assuem that because they are from another country that things should be easier for them because of their hardships. Nothing in life is for free. You have to work for it.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Effendi
How do you guys feel about THIS:

I am all about free speech but there should NOT BE ANY American flag hanging upside down on AMERICAN soil!! PERIOD!!

Scott!!

Why are you posting from Michelle Malkin's blog? It's just two-bit rightwing propaganda which treats our Constitution like a urinal. Flying a flag upside down is perfectly fine with me. In fact, especially in regards to this bullshit new law from Sensenbrenner, it is perfectly warranted.
And since when is there some exception to free speech if you're all about free speech? "I'm all about free speech except when it pisses me off." Tipper Gore just got another recruit. Besides, it's much more respectful than burning the thing, another Constitutionally protected right of expression. If we are the land of the free, then "our flag" belongs to all people who declare themselves free. It's a shame we spend so much time and money trying to find a way to keep laws in place so foreign labor will remain cheap, all while pretend to be about liberty and justice for all.

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
As a daughter of an immigrant who became an American LEGALLY I am disgusted that there are people out
there who are supporting that illegal immigrants be granted an immunity of sorts.
They came over illegally. They knew it was illegal when they did it. What is the big fucking deal? They're illegal.

Regardless of claims of immunity, do you support a law that makes it a felony for people to be here illegally, particularly when we have a system set up to make it advantageous for companies to exploit such labor and provide work? Just because it is "illegal" doesn't mean it's right. Laws are just created by people, often with completely selfish interests, which make them anything but perfect.

[Gucci Smoochies]

If they're illegal, they're illegal.

So, yes, I do support a law which will hopefully prevent them from further working in our country and taking jobs from LEGAL citizens.

The real problem here is that crop industries allow this to happen. They want to employ illegal immigrants because it's cheaper for them. No health care, below miminum wage, horrific hours. Yeah, it must be awsome to be a huge company employing cheap labor instead of meeting the legal work requirements and pocketing the profits while millions of LEGAL Americans are unemployed.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ

Regardless of claims of immunity, do you support a law that makes it a felony for people to be here illegally, particularly when we have a system set up to make it advantageous for companies to exploit such labor and provide work? Just because it is "illegal" doesn't mean it's right. Laws are just created by people, often with completely selfish interests, which make them anything but perfect.
And when those people come here illegally by producing fake documentation, they violate even more American laws. In fact, many people that hire workers are presented with documentation that they are unable to decipher as fake.

Is that the kind of people we want in this country? Ones that thumb their nose @ the laws of America, just because they want to work here? I'd have more respect for the ones that come here and don't have fake documents, but when you lie and decieve to come here and don't even put your wages back into this economy, well, that's blatant disrespect for America and they don't deserve to be here.

I don't care how attractive businesses make it, businesses don't make or uphold the laws.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
If they're illegal, they're illegal.

No. They're are much different shades of illegality. When you speed, you aren't charged with a felony and pose more of a threat to society than any "illegal" immigrant looking for a job. Personally, I'm glad the system doesn't work on a strict "illegal is illegal" basis.

So, yes, I do support a law which will hopefully prevent them from further working in our country and taking jobs from LEGAL citizens.

Feel free to start naming a single person you know who has lost a job to illegal immigrants. I'm waiting. This law has nothing to do with even keeping illegals out of the country. It's all about preserving a low-wage working class.

The real problem here is that crop industries allow this to happen. They want to employ illegal immigrants
because
it's cheaper for them. No health care, below miminum wage, horrific hours. Yeah, it must be awsome to be a huge company employing cheap labor instead of meeting the legal work requirements and pocketing the profits while millions of LEGAL Americans are unemployed.

Nah. The real problem is that we talk out of both sides of our mouth as a nation, and resent it when people take our fake feel good propaganda as an honest truth. Then, when they get here, their chased away by the "Durrr teekin urr jabbs" crowd. Just another form of racism in the end. What's a national border anyways other than a fake manmade line to preserve class divisions?

[Godlike]

Originally posted by Effendi
No Dave it's NOT, read the rules!!



Not that I'm going to all of a sudden get technical about rules or anything but placing a flag of a foreign country above the Stars and Stripes is NOT the American way that I'm aware of!!

Scott!!

ok.. fair enough..

edit to note that i didn't notice the US flag was upside down..

that IS bullshit.

[djsteel]

VinylDiva-

ding ding ding ding. right on the money

Why are people defending the rights of people who:

a)Will not protect you in times of War (yes, If we were attacked, everybody would be jumping back over the fence to get back into mexico...)

b)Take money earned in the US and send it to another country. Quite frankly, we might as well hire oversees labor...that way it would be legitimate

c)Do not show desire to fight for their own rights (as legal immigrants do)

d) will not defend your own constitution

e) Get free healthcare, while you have to pay $10,000+ just to give birth to a child

f)Acknowledge themselves as illegal, and fight for their rights, yet don't pay taxes for those rights

g)Live by a double standard - Living on US Soil and reaping US Benefits, but recreating their Mexican culture so they do not have to reap US liabilities.

h)Will never stand up to protect your rights as a legitimate US citizen

[JungulSouljah]

If they're illegal. THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS HERE. PERIOD.
If its a walkout they want let them walk their asses back to Mexico and lobby for their rights there.
I may not agree with our government, BUT I LOVE MY COUNTRY.
Too many of my family members have served and protected these rights for US not them.

[djsteel]

Well put. It's all the silly people who feel that "life would just be better if we sit down and smoke a J together" that don't understand how much the Cost Of Living is increasing because of illegal immigrants.

[superdeluxe]

Originally posted by Effendi
How do you guys feel about THIS:


Montebello High School in California!

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown003.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown004.jpg

Now THAT'S messed up!!

I do NOT agree with the US Government, but that is NOT THEIR flag, it is OUR Flag.

The traitors in our government will be gone sooner or later but that is OUR FLAG.

Those Mexicans better be careful...there are those of us that grew up with them and except them, but when you hang my flag upside down, your asking for trouble....

I am all about free speech but there should NOT BE ANY American flag hanging upside down on AMERICAN soil!! PERIOD!!

Scott!!

Looks like since they are pimping their mexican flag so much..maybe we should just send them back to mexico. Idiotic. You want to remain in american..and then you mock the flag like that.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by djsteel

Why are people defending the rights of people who:
a)Will not protect you in times of War (yes, If we were attacked, everybody would be jumping back over the fence to get back into mexico...)
b)Take money earned in the US and send it to another country. Quite frankly, we might as well hire oversees labor...that way it would be legitimate
c)Do not show desire to fight for their own rights (as legal immigrants do)
d) will not defend your own constitution
e) Get free healthcare, while you have to pay $10,000+ just to give birth to a child
f)Acknowledge themselves as illegal, and fight for their rights, yet don't pay taxes for those rights
g)Live by a double standard - Living on US Soil and reaping US Benefits, but recreating their Mexican culture so they do not have to reap US liabilities.
h)Will never stand up to protect your rights as a legitimate US citizen
Those are strong statements, but I'm glad someone said them.

Again, notice that the people protesting are kids who were born here and are only citizens by proxy... many (if not most) have parents who were or are illegals. I think it's a crime against America to have illegals pop out kids here and them have all the rights of Americans. If you're not supposed to be here, your children shouldn't either. Ultimately, if you're here illegally, you're breaking the law. If I break the law, I go to jail, but illegals are immune? Bollocks I say!

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
And when those people come here illegally by producing fake documentation, they violate even more American laws. In fact, many people that hire workers are presented with documentation that they are unable to decipher as fake.

Is that the kind of people we want in this country? Ones that thumb their nose @ the laws of America, just because they want to work here?

Yep. It's fine by me. I lived around no shortage of illegals in my lifetime and actually find them more "real" when it comes to American ideals than a lot of the people I've dealt with who were born here and take it all for granted. The illegals take any work they can get. They largely do everything they can to keep their nose clean because, if they get caught for something as stupid as spitting on the sidewalk, they will get sent home. Starvation, oppression and tyranny is a motherfuck and, yes, if dealing with either of those, or especially a combination of them, I'd do whatever it took to get to the USA. And given how dificult it is to make that trek for most people, I frankly find it insulting that we send any of them home.

I'd have more respect for the ones that come here and don't have fake documents, but when you lie and decieve to come here and don't even put your wages back into this economy, well, that's blatant disrespect for America and they don't deserve to be here.

Nah. The blatant disrespect for America is when we turn away people from the land of the free with beureacratic nonsense. We have more land than we know what to do with in this country. I'm tired of the "dur teekin awwr jaabbbs" rants. How about we try something where, instead of penalizing immigrants, we just make it that much easier for someone to not be shipped out of the country if they get here and treat them the same under the law as we do everyone else? The reason we won't do that is it would allow them to, God forbid, find a way of organizing and demanding higher wages while integrating with society. Do you support slavery?

I don't care how attractive businesses make it, businesses don't make or uphold the laws.

HAHAHA! As a lawyer, and one that works for the government at that, I can tell you that all of these immigration laws are both written by and for businesses. Just follow the money. Our country truly stands to lose nothing by reforming our immigration policy to make it less restrictive. Certain connected businesses do though.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
HAHAHA! As a lawyer, and one that works for the government.......... .

Such a credible position, a shark for the gov...

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ

Nah. The blatant disrespect for America is when we turn away people from the land of the free with beureacratic nonsense.
No one that comes here legally is turned away.

Maybe the special interest groups that are backing the liberties of illegals spent more time try to change the laws instead of brushing the current breaking of laws under the rug, there would be some change.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
And given how dificult it is to make that trek for most people, I frankly find it insulting that we send any of them home.

I could care less about how difficult it was for them to ILLEGALLY migrate to this country only to be a financial burden on the rest of us. And as far as youre dumbass claim to be a government attorney I call BULLSHIT. If you were truely apart of the American Govt your site wouldn't promote a torrent network.
So peddle you're lies somewhere else...we're all stocked up on crazy already.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Effendi
Such a credible position, a shark for the gov...

Exactly. While you comment from the peanut gallery based off of what you read on a blog, I can tell you how the sharks swim, what they eat, etc. because, unlike you, I'm busy swimming with them. :)

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
And as far as youre dumbass claim to be a government attorney I call BULLSHIT. If you were truely apart of the American Govt your site wouldn't promote a torrent network.

oooh. I'll wait to see the reply on this one.
Commited: 1
LowKey: 0

[Committed Prod.]

lol...you're such a tool.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
No one that comes here legally is turned away.

Maybe the special interest groups that are backing the liberties of illegals spent more time try to change the laws instead of brushing the current breaking of laws under the rug, there would be some change.

Have you been paying attention, kid? People try to get these laws changed all the time. But, like any other manmade problem that has a shitload of money to be made in the fight against it, you never see a complete reform. What's the incentive, particularly when those who get the money are the same ones with their hands on the levers for those particular laws? However, you will see exceptions made for various countries. Cuba is one such example, even though the notion that a Cuban needs to have their foot on dry land is absolutely absurd considering our legal national borders extend well off dry shore. I'm just glad that those who founded this country recognized that we have no duty to obey unjust laws. Immigration laws set up to protect profit of the few at the expense of many are not just. Thus, I couldn't care less if people break them and, as I have in the past, will continue to support candidates and work with people who work to see such laws changed.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Exactly. While you comment from the peanut gallery based off of what you read on a blog,

based on YOUR words....go on...

I can tell you how the sharks swim, what they eat, etc. because, unlike you, I'm busy swimming with them. :)
No doubt, I'm sure you know them all..your peers!!

I don't swim in the sewer, and being a government lawyer from NJ pretty much = everything I despise!!

Scott!!

[LowKeyNJ]

Since when are torrents illegal? Nice straw horse.

[Gucci Smoochies]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ



HAHAHA! As a lawyer, and one that works for the government at that, I can tell you that all of these immigration laws are both written by and for businesses. Just follow the money. Our country truly stands to lose nothing by reforming our immigration policy to make it less restrictive. Certain connected businesses do though.

As a daughter of a very prominant attorney in washington state, I call bullshit. And most attorneys that work for the government are corrupt and have no sense of value because they're stuck in legal loopholes and trying to snake their way through the judicial system. Don't pull that shit with me. It ain't working in your favor.

Our country is over populated and overinflated. We have more deficiet then we know what to do with and we keep handing out money to illegal immigrants and people that SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

As for me losing a job or knowing people who lost their jobs to illegal immigrants - I know quite a few in the california area, especially in the hospitality industry. A friend of mine cannot get a job as a maid because she asks for a higher payrate - MINIMUM WAGE I MIGHT ADD - but she can't get it because there are illegal mammasitas and senoras getting her job because they will work for cheap. Get it now? therefore she has to claim unemployment, taking more money from our government and from employers which then makes it harder for them to do business with legitimate employees.

You are defending the rights of businesses which THRIVE on people like you supporting the rights of illegal immigrants. They depends on people like you to let bygones be bygones and allow them to continue employing illegals and underpaying them, thus forcing the rest of the work force to be screwed over and out of jobs which SHOULD BE OFFERED TO THEM.

Liken it to Walmart. Walmart comes in and takes business away from all the smaller companies and employs people at the cheapest wage possible just so they can get more business and a bigger net profit.

Seeing the bullshit my mother and my boyfriend's mom have gone through to become LEGAL citizens, I am a huge advocate that if you are here illegally you have no fucking rights at all. Respect is earned and if you fuck over the system from the the get go by sneaking in here, you have no rights and have earned no rights by doing so.

Next you're going to tell me it should be okay that they don't learn a lick of English and that it should be mandatory that everything is translated in Spanish because of the huge Spanish population in our nation.

[LowKeyNJ]

I don't swim in the sewer, and being a government lawyer from NJ pretty much = everything I despise!!

Wow. And your opinion matters to me, or anyone else for that matter, why?

Arm yourself with more than playground insults, kid. You're an amateur at best.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Have you been paying attention, kid?


KID??????

Yup he's a government BITCH alright!!

Don't you come on here Motherfucker talking to us like that, we will chew you up and spit you out in a second Mr Gov lawyer!!

[Committed Prod.]

perhaps if you were a true attorney... you wouldn't need someone to spell it out for you.
Oh and according to my uncle whom is true government attorney, you personally are liable for any and all activities you engage in. Even torrent networks. And when I mentioned to him that you refered to yourself as a 'lawyer'. He jusy chuckled and said, "that anyone claiming to be a 'lawyer' is not an attorney for the government." So again you're full of sh_t.

[Gucci Smoochies]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
perhaps if you were a true attorney... you wouldn't need someone to spell it out for you.
Oh and according to my uncle whom is true government attorney, you personally are liable for any and all activities you engage in. Even torrent networks. And when I mentioned to him that you refered to yourself as a 'lawyer'. He jusy chuckled and said, "that anyone claiming to be a 'lawyer' is not an attorney for the government." So again you're full of sh_t.

Exactly. My father never calls himself a lawyer. It's always Attorney.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
As a daughter of a very prominant attorney in washington state, I call bullshit. And most attorneys that work for the government are corrupt and have no sense of value because they're stuck in legal loopholes and trying to snake their way through the judicial system. Don't pull that shit with me. It ain't working in your favor.

Ahhh. My mistake. Obviously, being a child of an attorney makes you much more aware of the legal system. Just like the children of brain surgeons are just as qualified to comment on brain surgery. :)

Our country is over populated and overinflated. We have more deficiet then we know what to do with and we keep
handing out money to illegal immigrants and people that SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Obviously, you've never travelled or lived throughout the USA very much. BTW, quote me how much of our money goes towards illegal immigrants. And, no, not in the battle to keep them out. But, just all the unfair ways you think they get great subsidized rewards for being here illegally. Ask your Dad if you don't know already. :)

As for me losing a job or knowing people who lost their jobs to illegal immigrants - I know quite a few in the california area, especially in the hospitality industry. A friend of mine cannot get a job as a maid because she asks for a higher payrate - MINIMUM WAGE I MIGHT ADD - but she can't get it because there are illegal mammasitas and
senoras getting her job because they will work for cheap. Get it now? therefore she has to claim unemployment, taking more money from our government and from employers which then makes it harder for them to do business with legitimate employees.

Think about whay you just said. What's a more effective way to battle it? Spend more to keep people out? Or, spend less, allow them to stay, and allow them to have a reality of organizing so that their wages would be at the same rate as your friend? Or will all of these pesky illegal immigrants continue working for less money if they don't have to?

You are defending the rights of businesses which THRIVE on people like you supporting the rights of illegal immigrants. They depends on people like you to let bygones be bygones and allow them to continue employing illegals
and underpaying them, thus forcing the rest of the work force to be screwed over and out of jobs which SHOULD BE OFFERED TO THEM.

You got me all wrong, kiddo. I'm not talking about letting bygones be bygones. I don't believe in closed borders. That's all. And I'd open them, rather than close them further while treating the poor like felons, and watch as, all of a sudden, the labor market and the wages charged evened out.

Liken it to Walmart. Walmart comes in and takes business away from all the smaller companies and employs people
at the cheapest wage possible just so they can get more business and a bigger net profit.

Walmart supports the same laws and policy you are right now. Care to guess why?

Seeing the bullshit my mother and my boyfriend's mom have gone through to become LEGAL citizens, I am a huge
advocate that if you are here illegally you have no fucking rights at all. Respect is earned and if you fuck over the
system from the the get go by sneaking in here, you have no rights and have earned no rights by doing so.

Ahhhhhhhh! I see. So, it's like a hazing thing with fraternities. Because it sucked for you, it has to suck for
everyone else too. :)

Next you're going to tell me it should be okay that they don't learn a lick of English and that it should be
mandatory that everything is translated in Spanish because of the huge Spanish population in our nation.

Sure, I'll say that. Nothing in my Constitution, nor anything our forefathers died for, said that people MUST speak
English.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Wow... kid. You're an amateur at best.

he says in his 8th post on this board....hang around and find out counselor!!

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Effendi
KID??????

Yup he's a government BITCH alright!!

Don't you come on here Motherfucker talking to us like that, we will chew you up and spit you out in a second Mr Gov lawyer!!

Or what? You gonna talk tough to me over the internet? Suck me. :)

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
perhaps if you were a true attorney... you wouldn't need someone to spell it out for you.
Oh and according to my uncle whom is true government attorney, you personally are liable for any and all activities you engage in. Even torrent networks. And when I mentioned to him that you refered to yourself as a 'lawyer'. He jusy chuckled and said, "that anyone claiming to be a 'lawyer' is not an attorney for the government." So again you're full of sh_t.

Again, please explain to me what is illegal about torrents. Also, try reading the DMCA. I honestly don't care if you believe that I'm an attorney, lawyer, or whatever you fools care to call it. It doesn't change the fact that most of you have walked into this conversation unarmed with anything but some boring right-wing propaganda. Take it over to Free Republic if you want to impress people with it. :)

[Committed Prod.]

nor does it say anything about self-serving psuedo-attorneys spewing ignorance and pro-immigrant garbage on our forum.
my guess is you probably have some form of interest in keeping the 'illegals' here. Do you employ them or just covet them?
You're the epitome of a sad lil troll.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Or what? You gonna talk tough to me over the internet? Suck me. :)
Yea, that sounds like the lingo of a Govt Attorney.

So I see you're spending quite a bit of time blabbing on this messageboard. I don't know too many lawyers that have the freetime to BS on a messageboard during business hours.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Again, please explain to me what is illegal about torrents. Also, try reading the DMCA.
So this is where I chime in.

I'm VERY familiar with the DMCA and I'm in law school, so I'll rebut. Torrents are illegal for the party that's hosting/sharing the files. It's not illegal to DL, only to upload.

[Committed Prod.]

ILLegality of Torrent Networks Links:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20050315/1222207_F.shtml
http://www.monduna.com/bt/faq.html#LEGAL_1
http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/dmca1.htm

[djsteel]

I love NWTEKNO!

Get 'im, boys...

[B_tech]

I'm not super familiar with Torrents, but aren't they more like you 'leech' a file off someone, rather than up and download?

[Committed Prod.]

BitTorrent is a file distribution system used for transferring files across a network of people. As you download a file, BitTorrent places what you download on upload for other users; when multiple people are downloading the same file at the same time they upload pieces of the file to each other. BitTorrent pieces together the file you are downloading, to where the first part of a file you get may be the last part someone else gets. As you continue to retrieve the file, BitTorrent also uploads data to other users. For example, a person with 98 percent of the file done is directed to the people with the 2 percent of the file they still need.

The files downloaded via BitTorrent are called torrents.
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/BitTorrent.html

Bring it Punk. The NWTEKNO FAM is stronger than you can imagine.

[Gucci Smoochies]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Ahhh. My mistake. Obviously, being a child of an attorney makes you much more aware of the legal system. Just like the children of brain surgeons are just as qualified to comment on brain surgery. :)

Actually yes it does. My father taught my sisters and I about the legal system so we knew what the hell it was about. I might notpass the state bar or anything but I know a bit more then the average Joe. Plus, my father always offers me free legal advice and helps me understand certain topics, like this, when the media likes to gloss shit over.

I'm quite sure if you asked a kid who the was son or daughter of a brain surgeon they would be able to give a bit more information about the way the brain works vs. some random kid.

My mother has a doctor's in Pyschology. Would you like me to educate you on my knowledge that subject as well or do you get my point?

Asshat.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Obviously, you've never travelled or lived throughout the USA very much. BTW, quote me how much of our money goes towards illegal immigrants. And, no, not in the battle to keep them out. But, just all the unfair ways you think they get great subsidized rewards for being here illegally. Ask your Dad if you don't know already. :)

Actually I have. I was brought up in Saudi Arabia for four years and we WERE immigrants there. We lived on an American base while my father worked for Aramco. Then we moved back to the states. I have traveled all over the world and all over the US as well. Thereofre, I pride myself damn well on my experiences and knowledge of a world outside the US.

And don't patronize me. I'm 24 years old and not a child. I do all my own damn research and I don't need my father to assist me in that much.

http://www.carryingcapacity.org/02aa5.html
business and workers pay an increasingly high price in taxes, lost jobs, and depressed wages — over $93 billion a year in taxes (net after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) and $152 billion in annual wage depression as more fully described in the attached Economics Report.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/29/150259.shtml
Each Uneducated Immigrant Costs Taxpayers $90,000

America's refusal to choose non-randomly among "diversity" visa applicants appears costly. A National Academy of Sciences study found that:

# Immigrants with below a high school education cost the country $90,000 net over their lifetimes.

# Those with the equivalent of a high school education cost the United States $30,000.

# Immigrants with a college education or more brought a net benefit to the nation of $100,000.

By this calculation, over the course of a decade, the lifetime opportunity cost of admitting 500,000 high school graduates rather than the same number of college graduates would be $65 billion.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Think about whay you just said. What's a more effective way to battle it? Spend more to keep people out? Or, spend less, allow them to stay, and allow them to have a reality of organizing so that their wages would be at the same rate as your friend? Or will all of these pesky illegal immigrants continue working for less money if they don't have to?

So you suggest that we open our doors and allow people to flood our country because they have that right??

Do you realize how many came over illegally?

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Illegals.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/31/illegal.immigration/

The figures show that between October 1996 and January 2000, the number of illegal immigrants grew from about 5.8 million to about 7 million, an increase of more than 300,000 annually.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
You got me all wrong, kiddo. I'm not talking about letting bygones be bygones. I don't believe in closed borders. That's all. And I'd open them, rather than close them further while treating the poor like felons, and watch as, all of a sudden, the labor market and the wages charged evened out.

I'm not a kid so don't treat me like one. I am an adult.

So your idea is that you allow total chaos in hopes that people and our encomony will sort it all out. Wonderful. Add that to our utopian hopes that this war will end soon and that Bush will be impeached, k?

You have to set up rules and restrictions. If people don't adhere to those rules and restrictions, you get anarchy. Right now we have anarchy and chaos. It's already proven by having borders that the illegals are coming in without consequence and our economy is hurting because of it. Explain the logic that if the borders are diminished, how is that going to better our economy??

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Walmart supports the same laws and policy you are right now. Care to guess why?

Amazingly I don't see why, seeing as they employ illegal aliens and have been caught numerous times doing so. Care to explain that logic to me? I mean they are a multi billion dollar company. They can afford to hire legal citizens to clean the bathrooms, don't you think?

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Ahhhhhhhh! I see. So, it's like a hazing thing with fraternities. Because it sucked for you, it has to suck for
everyone else too. :)

Hazing? Are you demented or something?

That was in reference to people who are legal and dealing with our legal loopholes yet they keep at it because being a LEGAL citizen is worth it to them. If illegal aliens want to work in the us or become a citizen that badly, maybe they should try to do the same?

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Sure, I'll say that. Nothing in my Constitution, nor anything our forefathers died for, said that people MUST speak
English.

Yes but our national language is ENGLISH. Not spanish. Not french. Not german. ENGLISH. Therefore, as American citizens they are REQUIRED to speak English before they can become a citizen. They show a total lack of disrespect by by not at least attempting to learn our language.

[R33koh]

Kick his ass, SeaBass!!!

[Mayo Finch]

They are totally OK to do what they want with any flag they want.

If they are willing to put up with the legal consequences, let them do anything they want.

If they are not committing a crime, let them do what ever they want.

As for the illegal immigrant argument: FUCK YOU!!!

Remember, it was white people that put the border up.

This is indigenous land. There was no border before white people came here. Respect the people.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
BitTorrent is a file distribution system used for transferring files across a network of people. As you download a file, BitTorrent places what you download on upload for other users; when multiple people are downloading the same file at the same time they upload pieces of the file to each other.
OH... then it's 100% illegal, because the downloader is also the uploader... the uploading is the illegal part.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch

If they are not committing a crime, let them do what ever they want.

As for the illegal immigrant argument: FUCK YOU!!!

Remember, it was white people that put the border up.

So natives had no borders to their areas/regions/land, right? The idea of boundaries is a 'white man' invention? I seem to remember research in history class about Cherokee and surrounding tribes fighting over land.

As long as people live in society that is based on cultures, nations and boundaries, they are to abide by the laws set forth in said society. Deviation from that constitutes acts against society and order.

[Gucci Smoochies]

Also, I don't see the US putting up any fences that prevent Native Americans from coming into the US from Canada or Mexico.

While I don't agree with the way they treat Native Americans, I don't think this has anything to do with the topic. This is about illegal aliens crossing over established borders and coming into a nation which has been established for a couple centuries.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
They are totally OK to do what they want with any flag they want.

If they are willing to put up with the legal consequences, let them do anything they want.

If they are not committing a crime, let them do what ever they want.

As for the illegal immigrant argument: FUCK YOU!!!

Remember, it was white people that put the border up.

This is indigenous land. There was no border before white people came here. Respect the people.
Man everytime I read one of your posts its always the same rant.
Blah Blah Blah white ppl are to blame blah blah blah poor me poor illegal immagrants wa wa wa.
:rolleyes:

[djsteel]

ummm...native americans need Birth Certificate and ID, just like everyone else.

[Mayo Finch]

Take for example my tribe, the Nez Perce.

When the US calvary was chasing them exahstedly, there was the point where Joseph sent Looking Glass and all of the able bodied people to escape to Canada. The wounded, the old and a few protectors stopped.

They conceded that to have the chance to remain in this country, they had to surrender. The Looking Glass people moved on to Canada.

There is a large Nez Perce population in Canada. Their home land is Idaho, North East Oregon, South East Washington.

Those are the indigenous people of America.

I have relatives in Canada.

Do you see where I am going with this?

There wasn't one single giant tribe. There were related groups. When you split them up, you are committing genocide. The destruction of a culture, a people and so much more.

But yeah, thanks for being so understanding dickheads.

Centuries don't make everything alright.

Fuck white people's borders! It's destroying my people!

(Please, step away from your traditional white American way of though and take note of a Native American perspective)

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Take for example my tribe, the Nez Perce.

When the US calvary was chasing them exahstedly, there was the point where Joseph sent Looking Glass and all of the able bodied people to escape to Canada. The wounded, the old and a few protectors stopped.

They conceded that to have the chance to remain in this country, they had to surrender. The Looking Glass people moved on to Canada.

There is a large Nez Perce population in Canada. Their home land is Idaho, North East Oregon, South East Washington.

Those are the indigenous people of America.

I have relatives in Canada.

Do you see where I am going with this?

There wasn't one single giant tribe. There were related groups. When you split them up, you are committing genocide. The destruction of a culture, a people and so much more.

But yeah, thanks for being so understanding dickheads.

Centuries don't make everything alright.

Fuck white people's borders! It's destroying my people!

(Please, step away from your traditional white American way of though and take note of a Native American perspective)
well then I guess since those are your ppl ... why don't you go join them and maybe they are interested in listening to your constant complaints against THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN. SO Mr ANTI-AMERICAN/WHITE PPL you will realize that it wasn't you whom actually suffered. Get off your soapbox jackass.

Oh and good job about TRYING to make this another thread about you.

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
well then I guess since those are your ppl ... why don't you go join them and maybe they are interested in listening to your constant complaints against THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN. SO Mr ANTI-AMERICAN/WHITE PPL you will realize that it wasn't you whom actually suffered. Get off your soapbox jackass.

Oh and good job about TRYING to make this another thread about you.

Better yet, why don't you pull your head out of your ass and realize this is My Country! I don't like you and would like you to leave now. Your very rude and disrespectful of the people that are from here.

I said, fuck the borders. Not fuck the white people. But thanks for expressing your being upset with my position. I am assuming it is easier to say I'm on a soap box.

Who's the immigrant...Immigrant? Everyone that wants to be in America should be allowed to be here. If we are putting restrictions on immigration, then lets go retro active about 500 years!

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Better yet, why don't you pull your head out of your ass and realize this is My Country! I don't like you and would like you to leave now. Your very rude and disrespectful of the people that are from here.
You are honestly the most un-native motherfucker I've ever met. You're selfish, self-serving and anti-social. Natives are supposed to be peaceful people and welcoming, but you're the antithesis of that and spit nothing but hatred.

Besides, you still didn't reply to my first post(not that I'd expect you to):

"So natives had no borders to their areas/regions/land, right? The idea of boundaries is a 'white man' invention? I seem to remember research in history class about Cherokee and surrounding tribes fighting over land."

Just face the facts that land has been fought over and people have been conquered for thousands of years. If you don't like that, then you should move to a deserted island, where the laws of society won't apply to you and you can have your utopian existance.

[Committed Prod.]

sure its your country :p
:rolleyes:
edited to be directed at: Mayo 'I hate Whitey' Finch

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by B_tard
"So natives had no borders to their areas/regions/land, right? The idea of boundaries is a 'white man' invention? I seem to remember research in history class about Cherokee and surrounding tribes fighting over land."

Just face the facts that land has been fought over and people have been conquered for thousands of years.

Alright, I'm not going to talk about all other tribes. I'll talk about the Nez Perce. We were not the all humble stoic and peacful people you'd like to romanticise about. We were broad political coalitions. The various tribes along the Columbia were very glad to have us in between them and Montana tribes. The Crow and Cheyanne were rather bitter chumps at times. We were in a constant state of warfare for a long time. There were no borders, there were though, prime seasonal areas. When the Crow would encroach upon our area, we would rout them. If they felt they had enough bodies, we'd up the scale of warfare.

So, if your suggesting that I start being more traditional in my approach, I think it's better that I just keep doing what I do.

As for being conquered for thousands of years...holy shit. You are not for real are you? You meant that as a joke right? If not, this makes me doubt any significant caliber of understanding from you. I've been dealing with these issues for most of my life and from the sound of it, you've been at it for about...ten minutes total.

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
sure its your country :p
:rolleyes:
edited to be directed at: Mayo 'I hate Whitey' Finch

That should really be directed at: Mayo 'has a different perspective than me and thus has something original to contribute as far as perspectives go and the whole idea of diversifying our frame of reference so that some day, when we are faced with considerations that deal with the issues that he has addressed, we will not be homogonous in thought and might beable to develop groundbreaking ideas or even be more considerate in our scope of impact' Finch


Just thought I'd make a quick clarification to your edit. It was lacking the true implications and diversity of my message.

[DjHyperSonik]

One thing you guys all missed is that hanging a US flag upside down on US SOIL is against the law. As in: a CRIME unless done properly.


THE FLAG CODE
Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10
As amended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress
Approved July 7, 1976

§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

That's a federal crime.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the FBI showed up at that school.

[Mayo Finch]

Yeah, if you look at the American Indian Movement, they have dictated that the United States is in a perpetual state that warrents the above stated situation. When challenged in court, their position was upheld.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Just thought I'd make a quick clarification to your edit. It was lacking the true implications and diversity of my message.
YOUR MISQUOTE OF ME is a sad little attempt at a verification of YOUR weak rebuttal.
You have been conquered. Again.

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
YOUR MISQUOTE OF ME is a sad little attempt at a verification of YOUR weak rebuttal.
You have been conquered. Again.

No, your misquote was more of a misleading perspective.

You know, I was just checking out your Aloha thread, hasn't anyone told you that if the promoter bumps their own thread alot, it's usually a bad sign? But what do I know, I'm just some ignorant white guy hater right?

Better yet, you know what, alot of my friends are white and likely some of them are your friends.

Call my attempts sad, but really, you missed the point. The idea of me saying what I feel isn't to make anyone feel guilty or bring attention to myself. My parents were social activist. They learned along time ago that a perspective not expressed is removing it from the general pool of thought. By leaving it out, the parameters of ideas are limited and the considerations towards your positions are severed.

As an obligation to the idea of diversity, so we don't live in a strictly WHITE society, I say what is known and understood to me. Your perceptions may be limited, but then again, if by any chance, you see what I say at any point in time, then I am doing a good job.

So, do we keep this conversation going in the realm of personal insults or would you rather stay on point and address the issues.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Take for example my tribe
But yeah, thanks for being so understanding dickheads
Fuck white people's borders!

Yeah ..... Im the one who is mislead.:rolleyes:
and to RE-iterate this thread ORIGINALLY had nothing to do with you or your native tribe.

[Godlike]

split it off then..

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
As for being conquered for thousands of years...holy shit. You are not for real are you? You meant that as a joke right? If not, this makes me doubt any significant caliber of understanding from you. I've been dealing with these issues for most of my life and from the sound of it, you've been at it for about...ten minutes total.
Oh poor you.

But if you spent 1/2 the time studying history as you do hating the white man, you'd know that civilations and people have been conquered and overcome for yes... thousands of years. The Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians, the Turks took over the whole middle East, the Christians did the same... the nazi's forced my family from Germany. So gee, i guess I as a German Jew know nothing about displacement. Only the poor natives of America know the pain of displacement and everyone else is crazy for even thinking we know anything about the subject.
But let's keep giving you pity, because you're the ONLY one that's known displacement and 'oppression'.

Cry me a fucking river.. the world is far larger than YOU. And why don't you actually reply to what I say for a change, rather than ramble off on some banter unrelated?

[Committed Prod.]

well said B.
And for the matter regarding my bumping of my own party.... This just another sad attempt at trying to gain some footing in this dialogue. AND By the way DO NOT COME TO ALOHA.
You're not welcome within my community, hater.

[namagem]

if they want to hang our flag upside down, whats stopping us from hanging THEIR flag upside down... here on American soil? right in my front yard. at least we are home, right?
LOL

i mean, at least its not like an act of war or something, give me a break! we could always drop a bomb on mexico city in retaliation, like the palestinians would do! LOl , no, not feelin that?

ya know? so they want to scrub toilets, who cares? fuck with my flag, though, like tha man says, and you are going to see a few more mexican flags hanging upside down im my neighborhood.

dont fuck with it again, i remember tha alamo

[Mayo Finch]

Alright B_tard, you totally have the best and strongest point I have ever heard and it is changing the way that I think forever...as long as forever was actually this morning when I took a piss before I was totally awake and unable to really care about anything other than taking a piss.

Given the stength of you previous interactions with me, I doubt you are really that qualifide to do any real comparitive point to point discussion where the ideal outcome is a developed understanding and modifide perspective for the mutual benifit of us both.

Or we can continue the positional bargaining where you have your position and I have my position and the result is something like to pirate ships side by side thrashing one another with cannon balls, except for us, there would be no water, you'd be in a dingy with a slingshot with an eyepatch.

Your choice, I'll go anyway you want.

[namagem]

i am 1/8th apache native american. i probably could get benefits and whatnot, but im also lazy. that and i dont live in utah.

LOL

no seriously brah! no joke cousin

[B_tech]

Originally posted by namagem
if they want to hang our flag upside down, whats stopping us from hanging THEIR flag upside down... here on American soil? at least we are home, right?
LOL
touche. But see, that's the difference... we wouldn't think of doing that, because we respect the Mexican nation and it's people. To see such acts of disrespect from kids who are citizens does NOT make me want to support their 'cause' anymore. It only shows me how little they appreciate their citizenship.... but it's funny that they love Mexico so much, but wouldn't dare move back there. That, my friends, is a hypocrite.

[namagem]

maybe their terrorists then, anti american terrorists that need to be eliminated, striked at...

lets strike at the terrists
http://imagehost.darkernet.co.uk/i/tarminator.jpg

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Given the stength of you previous interactions with me, I doubt you are really that qualifide to do any real comparitive point to point discussion where the ideal outcome is a developed understanding and modifide perspective for the mutual benifit of us both.

That's the thing, you can't even reply to what I've said, which only shows that you're either: A ) too afraid to try to rebut, B ) know I'm right or C ) full of shit. Your yammering on about this and that, but you don't reply to what people say and frankly, I'm still waiting to hear what makes YOU so special and an authority on displacement, when i've clearly shown it's not a new thing.
But I'll expect the same tired replies and the same 'kill whitey' attitude... lack of education is showing from your views.

Oh and the name changing to B_Tard? How mature... what, are you 10 or something?

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
well said B.
And for the matter regarding my bumping of my own party.... This just another sad attempt at trying to gain some footing in this dialogue. AND By the way DO NOT COME TO ALOHA.
You're not welcome within my community, hater.

See, we didn't have to get all personal...we could have kept it civil and really just talked about the issue of immigration. Instead, you attacked me personally and you got bent out of shape when I decided to show a glimps of me getting personal back at you.

You = Committed Productions = Party

Me = Native American issues = Family

Look man, let's get back to the point, I say, what's the point of having borders with Mexico and Canada?

[namagem]

Originally posted by B_tech
That, my friends, is a hypocrite.
you sunk my muther fuckin battleship!

[namagem]

lets keep crack off the streets

and terroris out of the schoolyard

kids don need to see that shit

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Look man, let's get back to the point, I say, what's the point of having borders with Mexico and Canada?
Same as there is with having a border between any nation: to control commerce, trade and flow of people & things. Wait, control is a strong word... regulate is better.

[namagem]

http://imagehost.darkernet.co.uk/i/rightsideup.jpg

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by B_tech
That's the thing, you can't even reply to what I've said, which only shows that you're either: A ) too afraid to try to rebut, B ) know I'm right or C ) full of shit. Your yammering on about this and that, but you don't reply to what people say and frankly, I'm still waiting to hear what makes YOU so special and an authority on displacement, when i've clearly shown it's not a new thing.
But I'll expect the same tired replies and the same 'kill whitey' attitude... lack of education is showing from your views.

I think what your taking out of consideration is the grounding of region and timeliness. I think as I said before, the Germans have set up reperations towards jews displaced during the Nazi era. Something the American system has not.

America has tried to sweep the issue under the carpet from the get go with out ever dealing with it. The legal consessions that have been granted are hardly worth the prior obligations of the American orginization. The fault of not perscribing to predermined understandings has led to where we are now. Simply put, the issues have not been dealt with and there for still exist. Basicly by saying "give it up" you dismiss the legal obligations of your country.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
Look man, let's get back to the point, I say, what's the point of having borders with Mexico and Canada? [/B]
This dialogue would have never changed from its original course had you not interjected your bullshit regarding your tribes plight.
You've been tolerated long enough... put the troll to bed already.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
I think what your taking out of consideration is the grounding of region and timeliness. I think as I said before, the Germans have set up reperations towards jews displaced during the Nazi era. Something the American system has not.

You be thinkin wrong then. There have been some antiquities given back to rightful owners, but the German government was so wiped out after WWII that the US had to rebuild it. West Germany was made to pay the state of Israel for the use of slave labor by Jews, but there has been no reparations for the displaced millions who lost land, items and lives.
.... starting to see you're not the only one?

[namagem]

why dont we just give california back to mexico?

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
This dialogue would have never changed from its original course had you not interjected your bullshit regarding your tribes plight.
You've been tolerated long enough... put the troll to bed already.

ARTsea was a troll.

If your mad that I said bumping your own party isn't a good sign, then say your mad at me about that. (By the way, you did bump it alot.)

I say, if were going to get all sensitive and start crying about things like this, then don't make personal attacks against me.

You can say anything you want about the issue of immigration. I have no problem with that. When I state my perspective on the issue, your like, "Shut up Indian. We like you better when you don't talk. Now let the white folks get back to being all mad at the other indigenous people of the Americas without feeling guilty."

Whatever...I don't supprt people that come off the way that you have. You never had to worry about me showing up at Aloha. Don't go around burning bridges so easily man. Things can get out of hand.

[Cedwyn]

Originally posted by B_tech
Yea, that sounds like the lingo of a Govt Attorney.

So I see you're spending quite a bit of time blabbing on this messageboard. I don't know too many lawyers that have the freetime to BS on a messageboard during business hours.
d00d - darth cheney told leahy "go fuck yourself" in the halls of congress, i believe it was.

[Committed Prod.]

Originally posted by Mayo Finch
ARTsea was a troll.

If your mad that I said bumping your own party isn't a good sign, then say your mad at me about that. (By the way, you did bump it alot.)

I say, if were going to get all sensitive and start crying about things like this, then don't make personal attacks against me.

You can say anything you want about the issue of immigration. I have no problem with that. When I state my perspective on the issue, your like, "Shut up Indian. We like you better when you don't talk. Now let the white folks get back to being all mad at the other indigenous people of the Americas without feeling guilty."

Whatever...I don't supprt people that come off the way that you have. You never had to worry about me showing up at Aloha. Don't go around burning bridges so easily man. Things can get out of hand.
I challenge you to show once where I said anything even closely related to your statement I highlighted in RED.
You're a the sadest example of a native american I have ever encountered. You really give them a bad name.
GAME OVER. YOU LOSE. AGAIN.

[namagem]

i think the issue here is not about race, but whos messing with the flag?? lets hand the flag back over, run ALONG children. maybe do some homework..PFFF

race is the lamest excuse to be mad at somebody, this country is worth fighting for though

fuckin around with uncle sam only leads to trouble, i hear hes the fastest gun in the west

[Mayo Finch]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
I challenge you to show once where I said anything even closely related to your statement I highlighted in RED.
You're a the sadest example of a native american I have ever encountered. You really give them a bad name.

First of all, I am an example of Native Americans. I'm not the quiet sit on my hands kind of guy. I'm actually pretty damn active and political. So, by not being complacent and all spiritual, you have the power to say that I am a "bad example?"

The tone of your statements is where I interpret what I wrote. There is alot behind tone of message than just what is said.

Kind of like, I never said anything about you being a bad promoter, but you could understand the tone. Get it? It works like that despite how you may want to see it.

[Committed Prod.]

No nothing was implied. I FLAT OUT SAID IT.
BUT AGAIN YOU CANNOT ANSWER ANYONES QUESTIONS.
DANCE AROUND IT ALL YOU LIKE.

[Committed Prod.]

Lets stop with the bickering. We will agree to disagree on these issues at hand. I for one am tired of the negative emotion that has been coursing through me due to current events. And true I don't agree IN THE LEAST with the defamation of my flag, I can honor the fact that others have differing opinions than myself.
With that said. Im done.

[Mayo Finch]

Alright. Chat with you soon.

[Cedwyn]

I built a little empire out of some crazy garbage
Called the blood of the exploited working class
But they've overcome their shyness
Now they're calling me Your Highness
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

I destroyed a bond of friendship and respect
Between the only people left who'd even look me in the eye
Now I laugh and make a fortune
Off the same ones that I tortured
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

I look like Jesus, so they say
But Mr. Jesus is very far away
Now you're the only one here who can tell me if it's true
That you love me and I love me

I built a little empire out of some crazy garbage
Called the blood of the exploited working class
But they've overcome their shyness
Now they're calling me Your Highness
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God
Yes a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

-TMBG

[burnt]

Originally posted by namagem
i am 1/8th apache native american. i probably could get benefits and whatnot, but im also lazy. that and i dont live in utah.

LOL

no seriously brah! no joke cousin

yea, I'm 1/4 alaskan native. 1/8 eskimo, and 1/8 - um....I don't know. some other tribe.

my father was where I get all the injun blood in me. he wasn't present when I was born, he was in the drunk tank. reprazentin, yo. he's a deadbeat. he ran away when I was less than a year old, and never called until my 18th birthday.

my mom rode my ass and told me to get the benefits, but I had to register with a tribe. I had to call the B.I.A. to try and like, figure out what the name of my tribe is. try and register with them. you know. set myself up with those annual oil payments and scholarships -

no offense Mayo, but I wasn't really feeling the whole "heritage" thing, seeing as how that family turned their back on me when I was a fuckin baby. just basically trying to shut my mom up.

um. speaking of "tones" - I got a distinct tone from every Native American that I tried to talk to - that I was out of place. a hustler. a poser. not a "real" Indian. this is including but definitely not limited to, the native american bureaucrats working at the B.I.A.

thanks for vibeshitting on a brokeass 18 year old who hadn't even seen his deadbeat dad's face, Chief RainingBull.

so fuck em. I guess I'm not a "real" Indian. blood might be thicker than water, but the walls of a home are thicker than blood. I'm whitey. fuck my blood. I'm a cracker, and damn proud of it. I grew up with a single mom, in a trailer, in an Eastern Oregon small town. I'm fuckin white. fuck the blood - it ain't about where you're from, its where you're at.

******
this, of course, has nothing to do with the whole Mexican American / illegal alien debate. but thought I'd point out that every demograph has scenesters and haters, including oppressed Indians.

as far as this debate goes, both sides are right.

we're fucking America. we open our borders to people who want a better life. we give them that opportunity, and our kindness is paid back, by having people who WANT to succeed, living here, succeeding. and making economies. and spending money.

we've done it for centuries. for the Irish, the Italians, the French, Cubans, Asians, Africans (not slaves but refugees like my neighbor "Patrique"), etc, etc.

we shouldn't be kicking Mexicans out. to suggest that is one more stupid, not-thought-out, bigoted idea from the neocon thinktank.

we also own this land. its our land. we got props on this shit.

we deserve at least a little transparency and verification on who's coming in and who's going out - thats only fair. and I think Mexicans are over-reacting to the bill, simply because of the tone implied by the neocons verbally suggesting this. its honestly not that unreasonable. if you're gonna be here working, just tell us. and until you're a full-fledged citizen, let us keep an eye on you.

[seattle science]

Neocons invented the idea of deportation? Deportation of people who are in your country illegally? In every single country with immigration laws?

I blame the media for my ignorance.

[namagem]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
I built a little empire out of some crazy garbage
Called the blood of the exploited working class
But they've overcome their shyness
Now they're calling me Your Highness
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

I destroyed a bond of friendship and respect
Between the only people left who'd even look me in the eye
Now I laugh and make a fortune
Off the same ones that I tortured
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

I look like Jesus, so they say
But Mr. Jesus is very far away
Now you're the only one here who can tell me if it's true
That you love me and I love me

I built a little empire out of some crazy garbage
Called the blood of the exploited working class
But they've overcome their shyness
Now they're calling me Your Highness
And a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God
Yes a world screams, Kiss me, Son of God

-TMBG
thats not even funny ced

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Committed Prod.
nor does it say anything about self-serving psuedo-attorneys spewing ignorance and pro-immigrant garbage on our
forum.

Sure it does, genius. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." And, being that you are not the admin of this
site, you might have to deal with us self-serving pseudo-attorneys calling some of you idiots when you decide to act
like idiots. Congrats! You win that prize. :)

my guess is you probably have some form of interest in keeping the 'illegals' here. Do you employ them or just
covet them?
You're the epitome of a sad lil troll. [/B]

Nah. Sad little "trolls" are people who post boring flamebait on the internet and then get indignant when people
point out that they are a moron. Come at me with some facts or just go back to recess, kid.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
So this is where I chime in.

I'm VERY familiar with the DMCA and I'm in law school, so I'll rebut. Torrents are illegal for the party that's hosting/sharing the files. It's not illegal to DL, only to upload.

You're in law school and you're still stuck in a mindtrap where you think it's torrents that are illegal? Earth to moron, it's "copyright infringment" that is illegal. When you distribute something you have the rights to, it's perfectly legal. What a shocker, huh? Also, since you are so familiar with the DMCA, then you're obviously aware of the safe harbor provisions for ISPs that may be involved in the transfer of infringing material, and what is required of them. Get a clue. Here's your dunce cap. Study the material if you want to play "expert."

[namagem]

:D

i had a very good night tonight











































sorry, go ahead, i forgot what i was going to say

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
Actually yes it does. My father taught my sisters and I about the legal system so we knew what the hell it was
about.

It's always the people on the hate crusades that pretend what their "dad knows" is equal to what they know. My father
is a lawyer as well, dear. Guess what? Before actually going to law school to learn, and then relearning everything
again upon entering the real world, I didn't have a clue. And "my daddy taught me all about the legal system" too.
So, thank you for your two-bit armchair quarterback opinion. Anyone with the slightest clue will see you are full of
crap.

I might notpass the state bar or anything but I know a bit more then the average Joe.

What a shocker. But, you're still an expert. :)

Plus, my father
always
offers me free legal advice and helps me understand certain topics, like this, when the media likes to gloss shit
over.

And still you don't see the forrest through the trees.

I'm quite sure if you asked a kid who the was son or daughter of a brain surgeon they would be able to give a
bit more information about the way the brain works vs. some random kid.

But, not more than a brain surgeon, sweetheart. That's the difference here.

My mother has a doctor's in Pyschology. Would you like me to educate you on my knowledge that subject as well
or do you get my point?

I'm sure when you have a rant about locking up the mentally ill, you'll feel free to offer it so I'll just wait until
then, dear.

Actually I have. I was brought up in Saudi Arabia for four years and we WERE immigrants there. We lived on an
American base while my father worked for Aramco. Then we moved back to the states. I have traveled all over the world
and all over the US as well. Thereofre, I pride myself damn well on my experiences and knowledge of a world outside
the US.

Where have you lived in the US, sweety? My bet is you've lived in urban or suburban centers on the coasts.
Newsflash! There is this large section of the country called "middle America" or "the midwest" which actually need
more people to live there.

And don't patronize me. I'm 24 years old and not a child. I do all my own damn research and I don't need my
father to assist me in that much.

Wow! 24 years old! A true adult who still quotes their source of knowledge from a "my Daddy says" perspective. I
offer my humblest apologies. :)

http://www.carryingcapacity.org/02aa5.html
business and workers pay an increasingly high price in taxes, lost jobs, and depressed wages over $93 billion a year in taxes (net after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) and $152 billion in annual wage depression as more fully described in the attached Economics Report.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/29/150259.shtml
Each Uneducated Immigrant Costs Taxpayers $90,000

Ahhhh. More right-wing editorials posing as factual analysis. You've spotted some trees, but you still can't see the
forrest.

So you suggest that we open our doors and allow people to flood our country because they have that
right??

Yes. :)

Do you realize how many came over illegally?

Don't care. The fact that it is "illegal" to enter "the land of the free" is an oxymoron.

I'm not a kid so don't treat me like one. I am an adult.

Of course you are. I'm sure your Daddy told you so. :)

So your idea is that you allow total chaos in hopes that people and our encomony will sort it all out.
Wonderful. Add that to our utopian hopes that this war will end soon and that Bush will be impeached, k?

Nope. Those are your words, not mine. While most people of the right-wing mindfuck like to pretend that the opposite
of what they believe is total chaos, people who don't have their heads stuck in their asses tend to realise that there
is more than one way to do something well.

You have to set up rules and restrictions. If people don't adhere to those rules and restrictions, you get
anarchy.
Right now we have anarchy and chaos. It's already proven by having borders that the illegals are coming in without
consequence and our economy is hurting because of it. Explain the logic that if the borders are diminished, how is
that going to better our economy??

And, just like the war on drugs, increasing the penalties and spending on enforcment is going to truly put a dent in
this awful anarchy and chaos you believe exists? Hell no.

Amazingly I don't see why, seeing as they employ illegal aliens and have been caught numerous times doing so.
Care to
explain that logic to me? I mean they are a multi billion dollar company. They can afford to hire legal citizens to
clean the bathrooms, don't you think?

For crying out loud. You do realise that bills are proposed which, while they appear to address one issue in
particular, are usually connected to something larger? Here's what we have going on right now. There is a law
allowing for somehting we are now calling "guest workers" being floated around. This allows immigrants to come into
the country for X number of years and sets their max wages by statute. Then, there is a law being protested which
treats "illegal immigrants" as felons. What you are witnessing is the use of federal law to create a defined low-wage
work force. Being "illegal" won't matter anymore when it comes to undercutting the wages desired by the "dur teekin
awwr jabbs" crowd. Since the "guest workers" are temporary and can only be paid so much, there is no threat of them
unionizing. If you're so damn concerned about people in this country legally being able to keep working at a fair
wage, you need to significantly drop this "illegal immigrant" bullshit and allow them to come in and organize with the
labor force that already exists. Then, companies like Walmart won't be able to fuck people the way they do now. That
is exactly why Walmart fully supports this legislation. They get a cheap work force which they no longer get fined
for hiring and also have a mechanism for permanantly ejecting trouble makers. Corporations exist to make profit.
That's it! It's the core motivation. What incentive do they have to pay more for something when, even if they get
bad PR for paying shit wages to illegal workers, they aren't losing any business for it can show even more black on
the books to the shareholders? These new "anti-illegal immigrant" laws are setting a standard so these companies get
to undercut American workers even further without even havign to face the risk of a fine for it. GET INFORMED!

Yes but our national language is ENGLISH. Not spanish. Not french. Not german. ENGLISH. Therefore, as American
citizens they are REQUIRED to speak English before they can become a citizen. They show a total lack of disrespect by by not at least attempting to learn our language. [/B]

Whoop de do. Someone who doesn't know English is hardly disrespectful. They just haven't been educated in it. And,
despite your strawman argument here, my point stands that there is nothing in the Constitution that requires people to
speak English. Get over it already or, if you so desire, put on a brownshirt and lobby your representatives to make
it a law that only English can be spoken in public. :)

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by DjHyperSonik
One thing you guys all missed is that hanging a US flag upside down on US SOIL is against the law. As in: a CRIME unless done properly.



That's a federal crime.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the FBI showed up at that school.



See if you can get prosecuted for it. The "flag code" is just a code of procedure for handling the flag. If it imposed any criminal penalties (thus creating a federal crime), it would be DOA as soon as it hit the Supreme Court, if it even had to go that far.

[Cedwyn]

lowkeynj is completely right in this. unless congress is about to get busted:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/21/AR2006022101845.html?sub=AR

c-span2 right now - cspan.com

immigration debate in the senate, if you're interested

[Gucci Smoochies]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
It's always the people on the hate crusades that pretend what their "dad knows" is equal to what they know. My father
is a lawyer as well, dear. Guess what? Before actually going to law school to learn, and then relearning everything
again upon entering the real world, I didn't have a clue. And "my daddy taught me all about the legal system" too.
So, thank you for your two-bit armchair quarterback opinion. Anyone with the slightest clue will see you are full of
crap.

Considering the mass influx of trolls on this board and all the newbies that immediately come on here, spouting bullshit propaganda and stirring up drama, I am inclined to believe you really aren’t an attorney. We’ve had MANY people over the past years come on here claiming to be one thing only to find out through arguments and research that they aren’t even close to that title. It’s happened before and it’s bound to happen again. Why did I call bullshit on your stance? Because we have had NUMEROUS people come on here pulling the attorney card when they’re nothing more then fakes. So please, until you can provide some proof of some sort, don’t think that we won’t question your stance.

And stop with the fucking “daddy” card. I never called him my daddy. I called him my father. You’re implying that I said I knew just as much as an attorney. I never said that and you know it.

I said: I might notpass the state bar or anything but I know a bit more then the average Joe. Plus, my father always offers me free legal advice and helps me understand certain topics, like this, when the media likes to gloss shit over.

Please, find me where exactly I said I know more then an attorney or anyone educated in that certain field? Please. I’m waiting.

I said I might know more then the average joe which is completely true given the fact that most people know jack shit about the judicial system and the basics of how law works because, lets face it, they aren’t going to learn it in our lovely school system. They might have briefed over the topic for one day at best but nothing really more then that.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
What a shocker. But, you're still an expert. :)

Did I ever say I was a fucking expert? You must be a government fucktard if you keep insisting on twisting my words into something completely different then what I spelled out.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
And still you don't see the forrest through the trees.

Wow. That’s deep. Maybe if you’re “government lawyer” job doesn’t go through you can get a job in philosophy.



Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
But, not more than a brain surgeon, sweetheart. That's the difference here.

Again you are mincing my words. I never said I know more than an attorney or a brain surgeon, I said that I might know more then the average joe. Will you fucking read my rebuttals before jumping to conclusions?

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
I'm sure when you have a rant about locking up the mentally ill, you'll feel free to offer it so I'll just wait until
then, dear.

Actually I have. I took a course in Pyschology in college and my sister suffers from chronic depression. Because of that, I researched the disease/disorder on my spare time. I am also really into virology and microbiology and some of diseases have been known to cause mental disorders, that’s why I also researched that field. I often have discussions with my mother about various disorders and societies love of pills and overmedicating. So yes, I have had this discussion on this board. Feel free to search off-topic discussion for those threads.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Where have you lived in the US, sweety? My bet is you've lived in urban or suburban centers on the coasts.
Newsflash! There is this large section of the country called "middle America" or "the midwest" which actually need
more people to live there.

You’re correct. I’ve only lived in Washington aside from Saudi Arabia. I’ve lived in semi rural parts of Washington though but nothing close to what many farmers over in middle America face.

I’m sure people will expand more that direction in time. Right now there is nothing there to entice them, therefore, why would they move their families? The cost of living is cheaper but there are less job opportunities vs. living in a more urban society. That’s why many people live in urban areas. They want the money, the luxuries, and the lifestyle that comes with cities and urban sprawl. Living in the Midwest/middle America is a totally different nature. My boyfriend is from Elizabethtown, Kentucky. We’re actually planning on going back there to visit some of his friends.

Many people over there don’t want their cities to expand and become as fast paced as the coasts. They like it the way it is. Why change something people enjoy and love? If they have such a problem, its not that hard to pick up and move. My boyfriend moved across the country with his family up to Seattle after he graduated high school. He had no money and neither did his family. They wanted to come up here for a new lifestyle and for the opportunity to do something other then work at the Walmart and McDonalds in town. Until more opportunities for better jobs arise in the Midwest/middle America, you aren’t going to get the same draw as you would for coastal regions.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Wow! 24 years old! A true adult who still quotes their source of knowledge from a "my Daddy says" perspective. I
offer my humblest apologies. :)

Fuck off. Seriously. I never said my Daddy says, ever. You are twisting my words, yet again for your pathetic argument. I said it once in my whole argument with you and provided facts, which you asked for on my own. None of it came from my father.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Ahhhh. More right-wing editorials posing as factual analysis. You've spotted some trees, but you still can't see the
forrest.

The forest thing is getting rather old. You’re mad because I don’t agree with your take on the subject, therefore you imply that I’m stupid and one sided. I normally research a topic from all angles before jumping to any conclusions, asshat.

You asked for facts, I gave you facts. Who cares what source they come from, you never specified what kind of facts or resources you wanted.

Here’s some more just in case.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21817
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_thom_har_060329_today_s_immigration_.htm


Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Yes. :)

So you’re all for having no borders and no restrictions on who can come and go in our country? Wow. You really are quite ignorant. I’m assuming that by your beliefs that we shouldn’t have anything controlled either whether it be substances or gun control, right? Because limitations only breed chaos right?



Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Don't care. The fact that it is "illegal" to enter "the land of the free" is an oxymoron.

The land of the Free implies that you have the right to believe in what you want, say what you want, and bear arms. NOT THAT YOU CAN FREELY ENTER OUR COUNTRY WITHOUT PERMISSION OR DOCUMENTATION.


Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Of course you are. I'm sure your Daddy told you so. :)

Stop with the fucking daddy card. Seriously. I’m an adult unless you would like me to start referring to you as kid, since you’re resorting to childish ideals and portraying the same level of mental maturity.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Nope. Those are your words, not mine. While most people of the right-wing mindfuck like to pretend that the opposite
of what they believe is total chaos, people who don't have their heads stuck in their asses tend to realise that there
is more than one way to do something well.

You keep implying that I’m right winged. I’m far from it. I’m more often leftwing minded and almost always vote Democrat straight across the board, depending on the topics. But please, keep categorizing me. It's so much fun to prove you wrong.

I firmly believe that if you allow people to push you over on something such as border control, who’s to say it won’t escalate into something worse? It’s like teaching a child. If you let them get away with one thing, they will more often times try to push the envelope on other issues and much bigger concerns.

Border patrol and security is necessary. You can’t let just everyone into our country for the hell of it. We are grossly over populated, horribly in debt, and we don’t have the resources to support all these people. Do I think they should suffer in their own countries? No, but I don’t think that opening our doors to everyone is the answer. You let the good in with the bad.

[Gucci Smoochies]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
And, just like the war on drugs, increasing the penalties and spending on enforcment is going to truly put a dent in
this awful anarchy and chaos you believe exists? Hell no.

I believe the war on drugs is a completely different subject here. I firmly believe that by establishing a stronger deterrent for illegals to come over and making it a criminal offense (right now it’s a civil offense to live in the US as an alien) you will help curb the appeal of it. So far deportation isn’t really established and the US has been rolling over and somewhat allowing it. It’s like speeding. If you keep speeding on the freeways and never get caught, are you going to continue speeding or are you going slow down just in case you get caught, especially if you never see anyone else get pulled over? No, you’re probably going to continue speeding until you see some form of punishment for that offense.

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
For crying out loud. You do realise that bills are proposed which, while they appear to address one issue in
particular, are usually connected to something larger? Here's what we have going on right now. There is a law
allowing for somehting we are now calling "guest workers" being floated around. This allows immigrants to come into
the country for X number of years and sets their max wages by statute. Then, there is a law being protested which
treats "illegal immigrants" as felons. What you are witnessing is the use of federal law to create a defined low-wage
work force. Being "illegal" won't matter anymore when it comes to undercutting the wages desired by the "dur teekin
awwr jabbs" crowd. Since the "guest workers" are temporary and can only be paid so much, there is no threat of them
unionizing. If you're so damn concerned about people in this country legally being able to keep working at a fair
wage, you need to significantly drop this "illegal immigrant" bullshit and allow them to come in and organize with the
labor force that already exists. Then, companies like Walmart won't be able to fuck people the way they do now. That
is exactly why Walmart fully supports this legislation. They get a cheap work force which they no longer get fined
for hiring and also have a mechanism for permanantly ejecting trouble makers. Corporations exist to make profit.
That's it! It's the core motivation. What incentive do they have to pay more for something when, even if they get
bad PR for paying shit wages to illegal workers, they aren't losing any business for it can show even more black on
the books to the shareholders? These new "anti-illegal immigrant" laws are setting a standard so these companies get
to undercut American workers even further without even havign to face the risk of a fine for it. GET INFORMED!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5303676
Q: : What's the controversy over the guest worker program in the Senate bill?
The Senate panel approved a plan from Senators John McCain (R-AZ) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA) to create a guest worker program for up to 400,000 foreign workers. There would be some sort of computerized registry to match them up with U.S. businesses, and those companies would have to show that they could not find an American to do the same job. Participants in the guest worker program would have to work for six years before they could apply for permanent residency (a so-called green card). They'd have to wait another five years to apply for citizenship.
Supporters say allowing guest workers to earn citizenship is necessary to avoid creating a permanent underclass, with no political rights, that is vulnerable to exploitation and depressed wages.[I]
Everything that I’ve found so far suggests that if you force immigrants to have work Visas (as they should in the first place) then they have the opportunity over time to become US Citizens though good work merit. This solves a number of problems – you provide the Walmarts of the world with cheaper labor, you document and track the authorized aliens coming in, and you keep our workforce afloat by only allowing a certain amount of the authorized aliens to come in, thus leaving the field open for Legal Americans to take the job opportunities.
How is this a bad thing? YOU JUST KEEP TRACK OF THE PEOPLE COMING IN AND ONLY ALLOW A CERTAIN AMOUNT AT A TIME. The leftover jobs for which the government disallows immigrants to work for goes back to the American Public, like it should be!!
[i]Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Whoop de do. Someone who doesn't know English is hardly disrespectful. They just haven't been educated in it. And,
despite your strawman argument here, my point stands that there is nothing in the Constitution that requires people to
speak English. Get over it already or, if you so desire, put on a brownshirt and lobby your representatives to make
it a law that only English can be spoken in public. :)

It might not be in the Constitution, but it is required by Law that through Naturalization and through Immigration, that you are REQUIRED to speak, read, and write English before you can become a Legal US Citizen.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/general.htm

Language
Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language. Applicants exempt from this requirement are those who on the date of filing:
· have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 15 years or more and are over 55 years of age;
· have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 20 years or more and are over 50 years of age; or
· have a medically determinable physical or mental impairment, where the impairment affects the applicant’s ability to learn English.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
You're in law school and you're still stuck in a mindtrap where you think it's torrents that are illegal? Earth to moron, it's "copyright infringment" that is illegal. When you distribute something you have the rights to, it's perfectly legal. What a shocker, huh? Also, since you are so familiar with the DMCA, then you're obviously aware of the safe harbor provisions for ISPs that may be involved in the transfer of infringing material, and what is required of them. Get a clue. Here's your dunce cap. Study the material if you want to play "expert."
Name calling... how mature. I can feel more and more that you're a big-shopt govt lawyer. :rolleyes:

No shit it's the copryright infringment that's illegal, but the process of using the torrent is the facilitation of the illegal action, thereby making it culpable.

"When you distribute something you have the rights to, it's legal".... OK, when was the last time Universal studios or Comedy Central were sharing movie and show files? Never. It's schmucks like you that sit at home and leech material from other schmucks who don't want to pay for DVDs. Same goes for music; I'm pretty sure the Metallica boys aren't sharing their files and since they own the rights, anyone else that shares their material is violating the law.

Unless, you're one of those misguided individuals that actually thinks that CD or DVD purchase/ownership means you have the rights to the material. tsk tsk.. lawyer my ass.

[Cedwyn]

efuckingnough already. my god.

this country was made by immigrants, from their blood, sweat and tears. even the original colonists were immigrants, for fuck's sake.

the problem is NOT immigrants. the problem is a fucked up, corrupt government.

can we please stop demonizing desperate people of dark skin now? please? if the immigration situation is offensive, then tell congress to conduct appropriate oversight and fine the living daylights out of companies offering these illegal immigrants these illegal jobs.

it's kinda like abortion - you don't eradicate them by demonizing aboriton seekers. you eliminate them by eliminating the root cause. in that case, it's unwanted pregnancies. with immigration, it's the lure of illegal employment.

[superdeluxe]

Originally posted by Cedwyn
efuckingnough already. my god.

with immigration, it's the lure of illegal employment.

Good point, That is why I like the new legislation. Criminalize those that support or hire illegal aliens, and then they would be more likely to go back home.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
Considering the mass influx of trolls on this board and all the newbies that immediately come on here, spouting
bullshit propaganda and stirring up drama, I am inclined to believe you really arent an attorney. Weve had MANY people
over the past years come on here claiming to be one thing only to find out through arguments and research that they
arent even close to that title. Its happened before and its bound to happen again. Why did I call bullshit on your
stance? Because we have had NUMEROUS people come on here pulling the attorney card when theyre nothing more then
fakes. So please, until you can provide some proof of some sort, dont think that we wont question your
stance.

Don't run away like a little brat. What difference does it make if I "prove" that I'm an attorney or not here? It
was one comment that I made in reagrds to your stance that business doesn't pen law. I merely said I've experienced
the opposite and, ever since, you and a couple other idiots have been running with it as an ad hominem attack against
me. I couldn't care less if you question my stance on anything. But, you haven't really done that. You've just
acted like bullies on the schoolyard who have started crying when someone socks em one back in the eye. I've merely
pointed out that you are uninformed, and called you an idiot or a daddy's girl after you decided to question who I am,
throw more generalizations about me being corrupt, and lots of other bullshit. So, take your above lame excuse for an
escape route and stick it up your ass. :)

And stop with the fucking daddy card.

See what you said above. When you can "provide some proof of some sort," I'll sto pulling the Daddy card. But, so
far, the shoe fits, dear.

I never called him my daddy. I called him my father.

Who gaves a rat's ass? This is valid why?

Youre
implying that I said I knew just as much as an attorney. I never said that and you know it.

Actually, what I'm implying is that you know jack shit about it. Thanks for paying attention. Good to see you're as
oblivious to sarcasm as you are blatant propaganda. :)

Did I ever say I was a fucking expert? You must be a government fucktard if you keep insisting on twisting my
words into something completely different then what I spelled out.

I'm not twisting anything you've said, child. You played yourself. That's all.

Youre correct. Ive only lived in Washington aside from Saudi Arabia. Ive lived in semi rural parts of
Washington though but nothing close to what many farmers over in middle America face.
Im sure people will expand more that direction in time. Right now there is nothing there to entice them, therefore,
why would they move their families? The cost of living is cheaper but there are less job opportunities vs. living in a
more urban society. Thats why many people live in urban areas. They want the money, the luxuries, and the lifestyle
that comes with cities and urban sprawl. Living in the Midwest/middle America is a totally different nature. My
boyfriend is from Elizabethtown, Kentucky. Were actually planning on going back there to visit some of his friends.


Now think about what you just said. Compare to what you said earlier. Thank you or confirming that the US has more
land than it knows what to do with.

Many people over there dont want their cities to expand and become as fast paced as the coasts. They like it
the way
it is. Why change something people enjoy and love? If they have such a problem, its not that hard to pick up and move.
My boyfriend moved across the country with his family up to Seattle after he graduated high school. He had no money
and neither did his family. They wanted to come up here for a new lifestyle and for the opportunity to do something
other then work at the Walmart and McDonalds in town. Until more opportunities for better jobs arise in the
Midwest/middle America, you arent going to get the same draw as you would for coastal regions.

I know. People absolutely hate it when money comes into their communities. :) Do you know jack shit about creating
jobs, dear? What causes that? Nature or people?

Fuck off. Seriously. I never said my Daddy says, ever.

Sure you did. It's just "my father says." You're twisting your own words, dear.

I said it once in my whole argument with you and provided facts, which you asked for on my own. None of it came
from my father.

Actually, you provided editorials. Sure, they included some "facts" to help make their stilted case. But, for every
fact sited, it ignored others. When it comes to this issue of immigration (and I'll bet just about everything else in
government), you're trying to set things up in a linear ordered fashion. That's why you can't see the forrest through
the trees. There are a lot of players at work here and it will help you to better understand if you view it as almost
a 3d chess board. The right-wing is using numerous pieces of legislation and government at the moment as pawns.
Neither pawn acting alone, however, will achieve what they want and that is especially true with this immigration
issue.

The forest thing is getting rather old.

Again, dear, the shoe fits.

Youre mad because I dont agree with your take on the subject,
therefore you
imply that Im stupid and one sided.

I'm not mad at you at all. Rather, once you decided it was ok to throw cliches at me about government lawyers,
amongst other cute things, I just figured you wouldn't be so much of a baby as to not take some insulting language
back your way. Keep crying about it. Or, if it truly bothers you enough to comment on it when it's done to you,
don't do yourself. Fair enough, dear?

You asked for facts, I gave you facts. Who cares what source they come from, you never specified what kind of
facts or resources you wanted.

The sources matter, sweetheart, because a.) they spin facts to fit their own personal agenda/opinion and b.) they
conveniently leave out others. It's why you so often here people bitching about "bias." Don't give me oped pieces
and tell me they are facts.

So youre all for having no borders and no restrictions on who can come and go in our country?

I never said anything about no "restrictions." Since I'm not a neocon stooge, or a clueless child who has been duped
by them, I'm well aware that our borders can be open and safe at the same time. Take some time to think about how
that might be the case for yourself. Or, go ask your Dad. ;)

Im assuming that by your beliefs that we shouldnt have anything controlled either whether it be substances or
gun control, right? Because limitations only breed chaos right?

Here's another cliche for you to chew on. You've heard why they say people should never assume, correct?

The land of the Free implies that you have the right to believe in what you want, say what you want, and bear
arms. NOT THAT YOU CAN FREELY ENTER OUR COUNTRY WITHOUT PERMISSION OR DOCUMENTATION.

Thanks for defining that for me. Your subjective opinion bares so much weight. :)

Stop with the fucking daddy card.

No. :)

Seriously. Im an adult unless you would like me to start referring to
you as kid, since youre resorting to childish ideals and portraying the same level of mental maturity.

I often find that, when I'm dealing with people who act like children, it's best to speak to them on their level so
they understand. You went there already, dear. If you'd like that to switch course, the ball is in your court.

You keep implying that Im right winged. Im far from it. Im more often leftwing minded and almost always vote
Democrat
straight across the board, depending on the topics. But please, keep categorizing me. It's so much fun to prove you
wrong.

How have you proven me wrong? You started in this thread by regurgitating right-wing propaganda surrounding the
immigration issue and followed up by saying you support the very law which, surprise surprise, has been penned by the
neo-con camp. Your opinion also seems based in hatred of people who you seem to believe have had it easier than
people you know, but not based on anything remotely related to the general welfare or good for the country as a whole.
So, when I see someone demonizing a type of person, while celebrating a law which, in conjunction with the guest
worker program that will come about, will be the final nail in the coffin of the people losing work to illegal
immigrants, people who you supposedly support, I can only believe that you are a.) a right winger who doesn't know it
or b.) someone who is quite easilly manipulated. All too often, it's a mix of both.

Border patrol and security is necessary. You cant let just everyone into our country for the hell of it. We are
grossly over populated, horribly in debt, and we dont have the resources to support all these people. Do I think they
should suffer in their own countries? No, but I dont think that opening our doors to everyone is the answer. You let
the good in with the bad. [/B]

Here we go with "over populated" again. LEave Washington State and get back to me, dear.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by superdeluxe
Good point, That is why I like the new legislation. Criminalize those that support or hire illegal aliens, and then they would be more likely to go back home.

It's a diversion. There's a whole new other bill that creates a perpetual "illegal alien" employee with wages defined by the law. It will be completely legal for companies to hire them. End result? The "teekin awwrr jabbs" crowd is checkmated.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
Name calling... how mature. I can feel more and more that you're a big-shopt govt lawyer. :rolleyes:

No shit it's the copryright infringment that's illegal, but the process of using the torrent is the facilitation of the illegal action, thereby making it culpable.

"When you distribute something you have the rights to, it's legal".... OK, when was the last time Universal studios or Comedy Central were sharing movie and show files? Never. It's schmucks like you that sit at home and leech material from other schmucks who don't want to pay for DVDs. Same goes for music; I'm pretty sure the Metallica boys aren't sharing their files and since they own the rights, anyone else that shares their material is violating the law.

Unless, you're one of those misguided individuals that actually thinks that CD or DVD purchase/ownership means you have the rights to the material. tsk tsk.. lawyer my ass.

Again, earth to moron! What is illegal about torrents and how the fuck does it relate to me? In case you haven't figured it out, there's a whole lot of us who create intellectual property, have nothing to do with the companies you mention, and share it with others in any way we can. I didn't think I'd have to explain this to someone on a rave board. But, there's morons everywhere so it shouldn't be a surprise to me.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by Vinyl Diva
I believe the war on drugs is a completely different subject here. I firmly believe that by establishing a stronger deterrent for illegals to come over and making it a criminal offense (right now its a civil offense to live in the US as an alien) you will help curb the appeal of it. So far deportation isnt really established and the US has been rolling over and somewhat allowing it. Its like speeding. If you keep speeding on the freeways and never get caught, are you going to continue speeding or are you going slow down just in case you get caught, especially if you never see anyone else get pulled over? No, youre probably going to continue speeding until you see some form of punishment for that offense.

They aren't different. In fact, the argum,ents you've put forward here were exactly the same for the War on Drugs. If your overall goal is to have it so people like your friend can continue to get work, what you propose and support wont do jack to help them.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5303676
[I] [b]Q: : What's the controversy over the guest worker program in the Senate bill?
The Senate panel approved a plan from Senators John McCain (R-AZ) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA) to create a guest worker program for up to 400,000 foreign workers. There would be some sort of computerized registry to match them up with U.S. businesses, and those companies would have to show that they could not find an American to do the same job. Participants in the guest worker program would have to work for six years before they could apply for permanent residency (a so-called green card). They'd have to wait another five years to apply for citizenship.
Supporters say allowing guest workers to earn citizenship is necessary to avoid creating a permanent underclass, with no political rights, that is vulnerable to exploitation and depressed wages.[I]
Everything that Ive found so far suggests that if you force immigrants to have work Visas (as they should in the first place) then they have the opportunity over time to become US Citizens though good work merit. This solves a number of problems you provide the Walmarts of the world with cheaper labor, you document and track the authorized aliens coming in, and you keep our workforce afloat by only allowing a certain amount of the authorized aliens to come in, thus leaving the field open for Legal Americans to take the job opportunities.
How is this a bad thing? YOU JUST KEEP TRACK OF THE PEOPLE COMING IN AND ONLY ALLOW A CERTAIN AMOUNT AT A TIME. The
leftover jobs for which the government disallows immigrants to work for goes back to the American Public, like it
should be!!

It's a bad thing because there is a wage set by law. You now have legal "illegal" immigrants who can do the job
provided you can't find an American willing to work the job. So, how do you get that situation? You set the wages
for the job as low as possible. On the otherhand, you could have a program where our borders are open for all
workers, without any silly "guest worker" exceptions, and allow them to organize with our domestic workers without the
threat of being expelled from the country. In that situation, wages go up for all, including our naturalized
citizens. The Guest Worker program, coupled with Sensenbrenner's xenophobic bill is an end move to kill any upward
mobility for anyone who maybe involved in industries where "guest workers" can be used.

It might not be in the Constitution,

Thank you. That's all you needed to say. Every other point you make following that line is a continuation of your
strawman argument and will not be addressed.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Again, earth to moron! What is illegal about torrents and how the fuck does it relate to me? In case you haven't figured it out, there's a whole lot of us who create intellectual property, have nothing to do with the companies you mention, and share it with others in any way we can.
OK dullard, I've already pointed out what's illegal about torrents and that the people sharing on torrents don't own the intellectual property (making an MP3 of a song doesn't mean you own the MP3's rights, jack ass), so if you're too foolish to still call me names and not see what I've said, then this convo is over.

I still say you're full of shit and a lying messageboard troll.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
OK dullard, I've already pointed out what's illegal about torrents and that the people sharing on torrents don't own the intellectual property (making an MP3 of a song doesn't mean you own the MP3's rights, jack ass), so if you're too foolish to still call me names and not see what I've said, then this convo is over.

I still say you're full of shit and a lying messageboard troll.

No, moron. The conversation never started because a.) you showed that you don't know jack about copyright, b.) you don't know jack about the technology and c.) you've yet to show how anyone is doing something inherently illegal by sharing data over bit torrent networks.

So, to sum it up for you, dunce, you're only breaking the law if you are distributing or acquiring IP which you don't have the rights or express permission to acquire or distribute. Now, being that you were well aware of this, and are obviously well aware that people share original work that they create over bit torrent networks all the time, I fail to see why you're even arguing with me or decided to turn this into an ignorant strawman for yourself. Again, how does this bullshit apply to me? You played yourself. Dust yourself off and move on.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
So, to sum it up for you, dunce, you're only breaking the law if you are distributing or acquiring IP which you don't have the rights or express permission to acquire or distribute. Now, being that you were well aware of this, and are obviously well aware that people share original work that they create over bit torrent networks all the time,
Uhhh yea, that's what I said earlier, dumbshit. People that share movies and music they did not create are breaking the law. Nice try tho.

Your whole holier than thou stance that you're getting IP from people that made the material and want it out there is irrelevant, because that's not the main use of such networks and you know it. People are on there to share music and movies they're too cheap to pay for or don't want to pay 'the man' for.

... again, I like the name calling. real mature. You win many cases with such advanced verbocity?

[Cedwyn]

lock-o-rama. today is so effin' weird.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
Uhhh yea, that's what I said earlier, dumbshit. People that share movies and music they did not create are
breaking the law. Nice try tho.

You've yet to show where sharing movies and music that one doesn't own the rights to somehow relates to me. You shot
your wad way too early in your attack on me, kid.

Your whole holier than thou stance that you're getting IP from people that made the material and want it out
there is
irrelevant, because that's not the main use of such networks and you know it. People are on there to share music and
movies they're too cheap to pay for or don't want to pay 'the man' for.

Every torrent network is it's own entity. The one you decided to ridicule here exists for the sole purpose of people
sharing their own creations and immediately takes down any infringing material as it is discovered or reported in full
compliance with the law. The site doesn't even share any movies. So, seriously, keep advertising how desparate you
are to find a way to throw ad hominem attacks my way. Again, you played yourself.

... again, I like the name calling. real mature. You win many cases with such advanced verbocity?


It's just amazing how you try and take the high ground when you stooped way lower than I did without provocation.
Deal with it, bitch. :)

[djsteel]

...AND THE POSTING STOPS HERE....

From this point on, you 2 can PM Each other.

[B_tech]

Originally posted by djsteel
...AND THE POSTING STOPS HERE....

From this point on, you 2 can PM Each other.
nah, I'll let the faygala do his own thing. I think I've made me point.

[seattle science]

immigration: cool!

ILLEGAL immigration: not cool!

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
nah, I'll let the faygala do his own thing. I think I've made me point.

Wow. I was waiting for someone to call me gay. So, we got jabs about lawyers, New Jersey and now homosexuality. Thank you for being so utterly cliche. If it was your point to misquote the law in an effort to talk shit to me, good job. :) Do you honestly believe it isn't illegal to download copyrighted material? Better go back and edit your posts, Professor. :)

So this is where I chime in.
I'm VERY familiar with the DMCA and I'm in law school, so I'll rebut. Torrents are illegal for the party that's
hosting/sharing the files. It's not illegal to DL, only to upload.

Dunce. Just admit that you played yourself.

[Cedwyn]

god bless molly ivins

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=20578
No fence will work. The Great darn Wall of China will not work. Do not build a fence. It will not work. They will come anyway. Over, under or through.

Some of you think a fence will work because Israel has one. Israel is a very small country. Anyone who says a fence can fix this problem is a demagogue and an ass.

Numero Two-o, should you actually want to stop Mexicans and OTMs (other than Mexicans) from coming to the United States, here is how to do it: Find an illegal worker at a large corporation. This is not difficult -- brooms and mops are big tip-offs. Then put the CEO of that corporation in prison for two or more years for violating the law against hiring illegal workers.

Got it? You can also imprison the corporate official who actually hired the illegal and, just to make sure, put some Betty Sue Billups -- housewife, preferably one with blonde hair in a flip -- in the joint for a two-year stretch for hiring a Mexican gardener. Thus Americans are reminded that the law says it is illegal to hire illegal workers and that anyone who hires one is responsible for verifying whether or not his or her papers are in order. If you get fooled and one slips by you, too bad, you go to jail anyway. When there are no jobs for illegal workers, they do not come. Got it?

[Cedwyn]

more immigration debate in the senate:

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan2_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

[B_tech]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Dunce. Just admit that you played yourself.
so you keep saying. Take it elsewhere pansy-ass. This is a thread about immigration that you jacked to flex your quasi-muscles, but ended up looking like a chump.

If you're not going to talk about immigration, then piss off.

[LowKeyNJ]

Originally posted by B_tech
so you keep saying. Take it elsewhere pansy-ass. This is a thread about immigration that you jacked to flex your quasi-muscles, but ended up looking like a chump.

If you're not going to talk about immigration, then piss off.

I was talking about immigration the whole time. You and a couple fools ran off with ad hominem attacks towards me over a comment I made in passing about being a lawyer, and how it related to my own personal experience with legislation being passed, into this stupid thing about torrents where you misquoted the law. Don't hate me because you acted like a fucking moron. You have only yourself to blame. :)

[Cedwyn]

jesus fuck you two. please just drop the pissing contest already, ok? it's already taken up a good chunk of an otherwise meaningful thread.

[namagem]

you make some good points and i LIKE IT!

[Plerr]

Private property ownership, the existence of nations and the subsequent invisible lines in the dirt which define them are primitive and backward concepts in my opinion. To think we haven't progressed since the dawn of civilization in many respects - by now - is mind boggling.

Anyone who lives here, belongs here. No one is entitled to ownership of anything by birth.

Want to prevent overcrowding and competition for resources? We ought to shift priorities from tanks and guns and bombs...to creating and facilitating first world farming infraustructure in the third and second world...investing in food, clothing, shelter, education, jobs, and medicine for every human on the planet...so that everyone may be self sufficient and prosperous.

The immigration issue is an issue over wealth/resource distribution.

[PDX101]

Find what info you can on Los San Deigo's.
You wont like "Mexicans" after you do some research!

The link I had to the organization is dead. I'lkl try to find another.

Los San Diego's is a movement by FARC rebels and a large number of
Central American natives, to take back the southren US, with force,
sometime around 2008. By any means!

I have friends that are Latino, this movement really makes them sick.
It is a spit in the face of everyone looking for peace.

[Plerr]

The FARC plan on taking over the Southern US?

Thats like Tom Metzger claiming he's going to take back Instanbul for the greeks...

whoop de do.

[Effendi]

Originally posted by LowKeyNJ
Don't hate me because you acted like a fucking moron. You have only yourself to blame. :)

So, a guy gets on a plane and finds himself seated next to a cute blonde. He immediately turns to her and makes his move.

"You know," he says, "I've heard that flights will go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger. So let's talk."

The blonde, who had just opened her book, closes it slowly and says to the guy, "What would you like to discuss?"

"Oh, I don't know," says the guy, smiling. "How about nuclear power?"

"OK," says the blonde. "That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff --grass. Yet the deer excretes little pellets, the cow turns out a flat patty,and the horse produces muffins of dried poop. Why do you suppose that is?"

The guy is dumbfounded. Finally he replies, "I haven't the slightest idea."

"So tell me," says the blonde, "How is it that you feel qualified to discuss nuclear power when you don't know shit?"

[dj cid 6.7]

ROFL!!!!!!!!

[namagem]

this thread is grrrrrrrreat!

[Committed Prod.]

lmao:D :p