Better not say "fair and balanced" unless you're with Fox news... - Page 5

ZupanGOD · #81 08-17-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur
I've read:

Atlas Shrugged
The Fountainhead
Philosophy: Who Needs It
The Virtue of Selfishness
For the New Intellectual
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

But it's John Galt's 60-page speech that most people cling to as the purest practical example of her mythology......which is stupid when you think about it, because it's dishonest. The arguments for it are always pure and moral and beyond questioning, and the arguments against it are always weak and flimsy and in the hands of intellectual inferiors.

Please explain..

Quote:

Objectivism is easy to debunk. Any phil 100 student or reasonable adult with an ounce of common sense can shoot it full of holes. That's why it only appeals to naive, impressionable teenagers groping for a sense of identity and self-awareness. Kinda like emo music or the Catcher in the Rye: it satisfies their self-evident assumptions that their thoughts are unique, highly evolved and important in some way, and that the world can not possibly understand them.

Is it? I havn't read every single book of hers either (which is why I don't claim to be an objectivist) but from what the books I have read it was very interesting. I'm still waiting for examples from you. For instance The virtue of selfishness which part of the book is so impossible to understand? I'm trying to help you out here you seem to be wetting your bed over Ayn Rand but you seem to have a difficult time putting it into words. Take all the time you need.

Later,
Jason

Ishkur · #82 08-17-2003

difficult time putting into words?

I'm far more eloquent than you, poncho. I think maybe that's why you're so confused: you're accepting what she says at face value and not really thinking critically about it. That makes you no better than a religious convert....which is essentially what Objectivism is.

I gave you more than enough information to start you on your way. Any epiphanies you have from here on out you're going to have to come to of your own accord. I led you to water, I'm not going to drink it for you.

Daz · #83 08-18-2003

is it just me, or did a big fight start up because a bunch of pussies can't take being made fun of?

I mean... really... when it really comes down to it, Fox is just being a bunch of pussies...

i can see the drip coming from Murdoch's pants right now...

Really... who the fuck cares what this guy does?

Mike, if you hate his opinions so much, you should be PISSED at fox for getting his opinion in more hands... most conservatives I know seem to think there are way too many people in this country suing people over bullshit....

Mike really gets off watching DVDA porno!!!

gee.. . are you gonna sue me now for slander?

no... because that would be pussy shit...

I mean really... what is this world coming to when a company can't take a little heat from someone... yeah... go cry to the courts... waste a bunch of your money and make this guy millions in the process...

how about this... you guys just cut him a check for 50,000 he takes ya in the back, shoves his foot up your dripping snatch, leaves the shoe in there and you guys call it even...

really... i mean... fuck...

Mike S · #84 08-18-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Daz
is it just me, or did a big fight start up because a bunch of pussies can't take being made fun of?

I mean... really... when it really comes down to it, Fox is just being a bunch of pussies...

i can see the drip coming from Murdoch's pants right now...

Really... who the fuck cares what this guy does?

Mike, if you hate his opinions so much, you should be PISSED at fox for getting his opinion in more hands... most conservatives I know seem to think there are way too many people in this country suing people over bullshit....

Mike really gets off watching DVDA porno!!!

gee.. . are you gonna sue me now for slander?

no... because that would be pussy shit...

I mean really... what is this world coming to when a company can't take a little heat from someone... yeah... go cry to the courts... waste a bunch of your money and make this guy millions in the process...

how about this... you guys just cut him a check for 50,000 he takes ya in the back, shoves his foot up your dripping snatch, leaves the shoe in there and you guys call it even...

really... i mean... fuck...

Slander you? Nope... As far as I can tell you're not a paranoid cynic whose political decision making process is predicated on visceral emotions... such as hate.
Its for those type of people I save the more colorful deprecating statements and metaphors.

Anyway.. when Franken's satirically presenting something - opinion or what ever- that is a product of a real situation. His comedy and presentation is damn near unmatched. BUT when he goes off on the stereotypical "loony leftist's subjective take on reality" Bush/Republican rant its beyond lame.
Just to be clear. I did used to really appreciate Franken's talent.
What I think made his delivery so bad ass was his unique ability, through smart satire & humor, to make a very relevant point. Politically or otherwise..
Its this approach to humor that he completely & painfully blows when his point has little or no basis in reality. As is the case with a lot of his shtick currently.

Its a shame. Cause when not viscerally motivated, Franken is a smart mofo. He should go back to being that smart lefty satirist and leave the low brow, loony lefty humor and political "locker talk" to dim wits like M. Moore.

Even when its at my expense politically, I enjoy a really witty "zinger". They're rare so its a treat when you get the experience. Other than that - if I wanted more of what has essentially become a bad comedy routine. That being the extreme lefts take on certain aspects of our current political reality. I'll just come to NWTEKNO.

That explain why I'm so down on the guy?

MS

Effendi · #85 08-18-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Roddimus
It's so obvious that .....both your and Fox's repsonse to this have been so immature, reactionary and absurd that it completely overshadows any possible "slander" Franken can muster.

186k\sec · #86 08-19-2003

Paul Newman Is Still HUD

By PAUL NEWMAN

The Fox News Network is suing Al Franken, the political satirist, for using the phrase "fair and balanced" in the title of his new book. In claiming trademark violation, Fox sets a noble example for standing firm against whatever.

Unreliable sources report that the Fox suit has inspired Paul Newman, the actor, to file a similar suit in federal court against the Department of Housing and Urban Development, commonly called HUD. Mr. Newman claims piracy of personality and copycat infringement.

In the 1963 film "HUD," for which Mr. Newman was nominated for an Academy Award, the ad campaign was based on the slogan, "Paul Newman is HUD." Mr. Newman claims that the Department of Housing and Urban Development, called HUD, is a fair and balanced institution and that some of its decency and respectability has unfairly rubbed off on his movie character, diluting the rotten, self-important, free-trade, corrupt conservative image that Mr. Newman worked so hard to project in the film. His suit claims that this "innocence by association" has hurt his feelings plus residuals.

A coalition of the willing — i.e., the Bratwurst Asphalt Company and the Ypsilanti Hot Dog and Bean Shop — has been pushed forward and is prepared to label its products "fair and balanced," knowing that Fox News will sue and that its newscasters will be so tied up with subpoenas they will only be able to broadcast from the courtroom, where they will be seen tearing their hair and whining, looking anything but fair and balanced, which would certainly be jolly good sport all around.

burnt · #87 08-19-2003

when hip hop was first gaining serious national recognition as a worthwhile media form....sometime in the mid 80's, I believe, (I was in Jr. High at the time).....there were multiple lawsuits made against the Beastie Boys, NWA, Public Enemy, etc. these lawsuits were made because the artists had sampled tiny portions of other artists' work, without the artists' permission.

it was determined that it is perfectly reasonable to dub - and loop - no more than 40 seconds worth of any artists' music, in order to create a noticeably different form of art, with no fear of legal retribution.

so go ahead and loop that CCR guitar lick, go ahead and dub that quote from Scarface, no problems.

my hope, for this ridiculous lawsuit, is that something comparable will apply to trademark usage, logos, etc. my hope is that FOX, by shining a spotlight on dated intellectual property principles, will merely instigate the change needed to legally re-word much of the intellectual property laws surrounding logo's, phrases, etc.

this is about as ridiculous as Adidas suing somebody over wearing one of those pot-leaf "addicted" hats that were so popular a few years ago. this is about as stupid as Arthur Conan Doyle suing somebody for publicly stating the words, "no shit, Sherlock." =\

people dropped the phrase "fair and balanced" long, long before there even *WAS* a FOX television news network.

the issue at hand is not so much Mr. Franken's intent, or mindset. the issue at hand is whether or not Mr. Franken should be allowed to "sample", or "dub" the phrase "Fair and Balanced", in order to create a new and unique piece of intellectual property for himself.

this is a legal issue, not a personal one. by their very size, by their own willingness to propogate an easily-remembered phrase throughout as large of a public as they possibly can, I can easily see an implied willingness on the part of FOX for their fully-propogated trademark, to be candidly used by the rest of the public inundated with their phrase.

besides, Mr. Franken is far from the first person to openly mock the phrase "Fair and Balanced", by stating the words "Fair and Balanced". The Onion's done this, as has Something Awful, John Daily, and I think I even remember a humorous Dave Barry column where he used the phrase as well.

its the price you pay for being popular. people will sometimes pick on you, by copying you. sux to be FOX..........

Mike S · #88 08-19-2003

Ridiculous or not.. its easy to understand how FOX isn't going to give an inch on something like this if it doesn't have to.
FOX is the right wing villain du jour for the fringe left and the various political echo chambers that comprise the fringe left's media & "information" outlets
If Franken, who's part of that far left media/propaganda scene, as well as the rest of his buddies out there on the lefts lunatic fringe are soooo convinced that FOX is neither fair nor balanced and that they lie. Then by all means, they should put their damn money where their mouth is, do the public a great service and unequivocally prove it. Right there in court for all to see.

MS

ZupanGOD · #89 08-19-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur
difficult time putting into words?

Sure.

Quote:

I'm far more eloquent than you, poncho. I think maybe that's why you're so confused: you're accepting what she says at face value and not really thinking critically about it. That makes you no better than a religious convert....which is essentially what Objectivism is.

Quote:

I gave you more than enough information to start you on your way. Any epiphanies you have from here on out you're going to have to come to of your own accord. I led you to water, I'm not going to drink it for you.

But if you believe everything you have said about me, than you assume wrong about my position on Rand and Objectivism. Like I said before, take all the time you need "poncho".

burnt · #90 08-19-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike S
Ridiculous or not.. its easy to understand how FOX isn't going to give an inch on something like this if it doesn't have to.
FOX is the right wing villain du jour for the fringe left and the various political echo chambers that comprise the fringe left's media & "information" outlets
If Franken, who's part of that far left media/propaganda scene, as well as the rest of his buddies out there on the lefts lunatic fringe are soooo convinced that FOX is neither fair nor balanced and that they lie. Then by all means, they should put their damn money where their mouth is, do the public a great service and unequivocally prove it. Right there in court for all to see.

MS

hrm.

see, I figure, its more about, whether or not Al Franken can dub some shit and do whatever the hell he wants to do with it. not moral stance, but, - more of a free speech thing, I guess.

I mean...fucking people make t-shirts, then say I can't drop the phrase somewhere else because they got special props??? what, the fuck, EVER....yea, I'll believe their whole "we don't wanna get misrepresented" claim the minute they recall all their t-shirts from smartass college boys misrepresenting them, sporting the t's just for shits and giggles....

its a vastly propogated phrase, originally coined by someone else, dropped all over the public with much enthusiasm, during a time where "dubs", "bites", etc, what have you, continue to proliferate.

indeed, the dubbed clips, images, etc, become art, comprised of a host of distorted versions of others' intellectual property, ultimately representing an entire new type of intellectual property altogether, comprised of many diverse, distorted icons.

shit.

did Campbell's soup sue Warhol over that multi-Campbell's soup logo/picture thingy he made?

did they win?

I mean, regardless......fucking petty.

we live in a dub culture, and fat cats need to get used to it. if I like your song, and its online? I'm downloading it...if I dig your images, or wanna laugh at them by manipulating them, and so I dub 'em? fuck you if you can't take a joke!

fuck FOX news!

because, I mean, really, its not about the moral/ethical intent, its about the legality/right in a Free Speech society......heh...

Daz · #91 08-20-2003

my extremely right wing conservative grandfather who thinks bush isn't quite as good for the country as Reagan was... but still thinks he is a damned good man...

thinks Fox News is "about as fair and balanced as if Pat Buchanan was writing the scripts, but it doesn't mean i don't like em!"

hehe.. grandpa is funny like that...

Justin · #92 08-21-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Rev Bucky
Isn't it amusing that they are suing Franken, and giving him plenty of publicity for his book, and themselves at the same time. Hmm.

Isn't it funny that they will probably have Al Franken on Fox promoting his book.

Could Fox, or the Rupert Murdoch publishing have anything to do with all of this?

That's intruiging. I wonder if Murdoch owns the publisher or Lies, or owes the owner a favor.

It could be the whole thing is sort of a reverse publicity. Anything that gets Fox news in the news is good news, right?

Mike S · #93 08-21-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Daz
my extremely right wing conservative grandfather who thinks bush isn't quite as good for the country as Reagan was... but still thinks he is a damned good man...

thinks Fox News is "about as fair and balanced as if Pat Buchanan was writing the scripts, but it doesn't mean i don't like em!"

hehe.. grandpa is funny like that...

I'm curious .. when he's referring to "scripts" Is he referring to what's being said when the news is being presented or when news analysis shows are on? I don't watch much TV and previously I accepted what was said about FOX being conservative at face value. But I have taken the time to put FOX on in order to witness this conservative slant.
In my estimation its not in their presentation of the news.
It could be argued that the news analysis shows slant right.

This is my take. First off the people that bitch about the supposed slant are hypocrites. At least as far as I can tell. Unless they are equally outraged at the blatant editorialization in news stories at places like the New York Times or The BBC.
Second. and this probably explains their not complaining about the slant in other places. The people I come across that bitch about a slant are left of center at best. fringe typically. Their sources for information generally reflect their ideology and, for the most part, these sources don't even attempt to be objective in their reporting of facts and the news. When going from a steady diet of news presented with a leftwing editorial slant to news - for the sake of argument here - with no slant. Its going to seem to some that the news with no slant is biased because the news they consider normal, non biased and informed is so very biased. On the same tip sorta there are also people who's far left world view so dominates their thinking (the farther left you get the more the ideology is embraced like religion) that anything presented absent their take on reality is going to be considered slanted opposite their belief. Even if its presented objectively.
The latter, I think, explains a lot of why people on this board believe what they do - not only about fox but the media in general. Lets face it. Some of the people on NWTEKNO -politically- are fringe left to the extreme. Nowhere near mainstream thought or even mainstream leftist thought.
And they are generally found right here in the off topic/politics section.

Finally there are those who are what I call "fashionably left". Common in places where left group think is found and where straying from the herd, so to speak, gets you funny looks at best. Costs you friends at worse. Seattle is such a place. Some places are like this due to a predominant religion. Seattle is so due to its politics and it being thought of in the same absolute terms as religion can be. Here you will find people say "fox sucks" because its what everyone else around them says. Deep huh.

Oh.. and Daz.. your granpa sounds like a hell of a guy.

MS

Daz · #94 08-21-2003

Grandpa is a riot...

give him a few beers and he'll start rattling about his "Un-Locke Washington" campaign...

hehe...

We typically agree on monetary things... I'm typically pretty right on that stuff... but jesus..

Fox does things like "Palestinian murder bomber" instead of "Palestinian suicide bomber"

in their normal news... now they may be calling it like it is... but isn't that kind of repetitive? Isn't a bomber typically a murderer...?

Fox has some pretty extreme sensationalism... which is my major problem.. they may be calling it just how you see it.. but you have to remember, you see it on the right side... you're not exactly a leftist mike...

Their coverage of pre-war protests only showed interviews with really freakish looking people... which, come on, while several of the protesters were freaks... they could have interviewed or showed an interview with a normal looking adult (which, the protest in seattle have several that I KNOW at) ... instead they picked the most babbling idiots and a couple college kids...

and at the pro-war rallys they only picked people who looked the most... pleasent... there were redneck Everett people in the backround ((no offense.. i'm from yakima haha) if you looked hard enough, but yea...

these are just a few reasons they're typically looked at as conservative...

start writing down their headlines when you are watching... then try to understand... they aren't down the middle...

at all...

and i agree... the NY Times is pretty damned bias... as is the Post.. and ANY other media source you'll find... you just have to learn to accept it other than accusing everyone of being a crazy lefty everytime they claim that...

Mike S · #95 08-21-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Daz
Grandpa is a riot...

give him a few beers and he'll start rattling about his "Un-Locke Washington" campaign...

hehe...

We typically agree on monetary things... I'm typically pretty right on that stuff... but jesus..

Fox does things like "Palestinian murder bomber" instead of "Palestinian suicide bomber"

in their normal news... now they may be calling it like it is... but isn't that kind of repetitive? Isn't a bomber typically a murderer...?

Fox has some pretty extreme sensationalism... which is my major problem.. they may be calling it just how you see it.. but you have to remember, you see it on the right side... you're not exactly a leftist mike...

Their coverage of pre-war protests only showed interviews with really freakish looking people... which, come on, while several of the protesters were freaks... they could have interviewed or showed an interview with a normal looking adult (which, the protest in seattle have several that I KNOW at) ... instead they picked the most babbling idiots and a couple college kids...

and at the pro-war rallys they only picked people who looked the most... pleasent... there were redneck Everett people in the backround ((no offense.. i'm from yakima haha) if you looked hard enough, but yea...

these are just a few reasons they're typically looked at as conservative...

start writing down their headlines when you are watching... then try to understand... they aren't down the middle...

at all...

and i agree... the NY Times is pretty damned bias... as is the Post.. and ANY other media source you'll find... you just have to learn to accept it other than accusing everyone of being a crazy lefty everytime they claim that...

Points taken and good points at that. When I was looking for bias I guess I was looking for more active forms of editorialization of the sort you find in NYT, BBC and sometimes on network newscasts. I'm going to "tune in" to the -for lack of a better term - passive forms you mentioned.

MS

Roddimus · #96 08-21-2003

I expect the BBC, NYT and others to have a leftward slant.
They don't go around purporting to be the exemplar of objective journalism.
For me, it's not the fact that Fox news is biased that pisses me. The conservatives can have their own network for all I care.
It's the fact that they expect us to wholeheartedly believe they're unbiased in their perspective when all it takes is 10 minutes of viewing to realize just how subjective their point of view is.

bungle bliss · #97 08-25-2003

186k\sec · #98 09-02-2003

September 1, 2003

Fresh from his victory over Rupert Murdoch's Fox television conglomerate - which sued him for borrowing their "fair and balanced" mantra to title his new book, "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right" - comedian, social commentator and best-selling author Al Franken is taking on the Bush administration.

Referring to White House deceptions about Iraq, tax policy, environmental protection and so many other issues, Franken told CNN, "This president's credibility is cracking, and it won't be put back together again."

Franken was so frank about the president's problems with the truth that his CNN interviewer asked whether Franken really believed Bush was a liar. Franken allowed as how, yes, he did think that.

Maybe President Bush will sue Franken for slander. Then again, maybe not. The truth is an absolute defense in such cases. And the truth is on Al Franken's side.